D
dolphinlove
Guest
The truth is Jesus died on the cross for our sins.
That is what Christians believe in.
I wasnt talking about the name of the denoms.
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That is what Christians believe in.
I wasnt talking about the name of the denoms.
D
De_Maria
Guest
Thanks, we had kind of gotten that impression. It is also not important to you that we have much more proof for what we believe than Muslims have for what they believe.Hi
It is not that important to me as to what the Christians believe,
That is a wonderful qualifier for the importance of the truth. In other words, the truth is not as important to you as that which you understand.the importance is only to the truth and that is as I understand
This based upon documents which have no substantiation or evidence.and believe that Jesus did not got killed cursedly on Cross,
Is this in the Quran? Kindly quote from the Quran.he was saved from it miraculously and he migrated to India with Mary his mother and some confidents,
Kindly have the remains exhumed and we’ll check the dna to the blood left on the Shroud of Turin.he died a peaceful, natual and respectful death in Sirinagar, Kashmir, India and is buried there.That is the fulfillment of Sign of Jonah by Jesus.
Jesus’ Second Coming 1835-1908 has already taken place, so more important is to accept him and support him.
I think it is reasonable and not difficult to understand, only one needs to have wings of research and studies deep into the scriptures. It is altogether a different experience.
What one needs is blind faith in your “New Messiah” .Thanks
Sincerely,
De Maria
D
dolphinlove
Guest
De Maria… you are truly talented!Thanks, we had kind of gotten that impression. It is also not important to you that we have much more proof for what we believe than Muslims have for what they believe.
That is a wonderful qualifier for the importance of the truth. In other words, the truth is not as important to you as that which you understand.
This based upon documents which have no substantiation or evidence.
Is this in the Quran? Kindly quote from the Quran.
Kindly have the remains exhumed and we’ll check the dna to the blood left on the Shroud of Turin.
What one needs is blind faith in your “New Messiah” .
Sincerely,
De Maria
G
George_Waters
Guest
paarrsurrey,Hi
It is not that important to me as to what the Christians believe, the importance is only to the truth and that is as I understand and believe that Jesus did not got killed cursedly on Cross, he was saved from it miraculously and he migrated to India with Mary his mother and some confidents, he died a peaceful, natual and respectful death in Sirinagar, Kashmir, India and is buried there.That is the fulfillment of Sign of Jonah by Jesus.
Jesus’ Second Coming 1835-1908 has already taken place, so more important is to accept him and support him.
I think it is reasonable and not difficult to understand, only one needs to have wings of research and studies deep into the scriptures. It is altogether a different experience.
Thanks
If Jesus was in fact saved from crucifixion and did go to India why, in your opinion, did apostles such as Bartholomew find it necessary to go to India to evangelize? Did Jesus quit teaching?
I
inJESUS
Guest
it appeared that Bartholomew went to India but he did not and those who dispute over it are full of doubts.paarrsurrey,
If Jesus was in fact saved from crucifixion and did go to India why, in your opinion, did apostles such as Bartholomew find it necessary to go to India to evangelize? Did Jesus quit teaching?
M
Montalban
Guest
I thought Thomas went to India and Batholomew went to Persiait appeared that Bartholomew went to India but he did not and those who dispute over it are full of doubts.
P
paarsurrey
Guest
HiAny Muslim has anything more to say about the apostle Paul? after all, we cannot hear you accuse him of everything, maybe global warming as well, yet give no evidence. I am looking for a logical discussion, will any Muslim contribute using history and logic?
I won’t like Paul bashing here, but If you are really interested in finding truth about Paul, please read
“The Pauline Conspiracy” by Mr. A. Victor Garaffa, a research scholar, he is not a Muslim:
comparative-religion.com/…ne_conspiracy/
Thanks
I
inJESUS
Guest
Sorry Paar but what are you refering to in this site? if its some book to be purchased online, then am sorry i cant purchase online stuff. If you got any idea from your source, please presented here.
I
inJESUS
Guest
still waiting…Paul corrupted books and messages and convinced other apostles of wrong teachings so it wont be hard to give examples …anyone?
M
Montalban
Guest
paarsurrey has passed the same stuff off on
islamicboard.com/693558-post8.html
and
islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9059&PN=3&get=last
He spams this board, and two Moslem boards.
islamicboard.com/693558-post8.html
and
islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9059&PN=3&get=last
He spams this board, and two Moslem boards.
M
Montalban
Guest
paarsurrey says that A. Victor Garaffa is a research scholar
I can find several novels he’s written… and I think that’s his real field of expertise
The Elfin Tree
*Finale *
Sentinel Keep
chroniclesofempire.net/showcase/
He makes this remarkable claim about Paul…
It must also be remembered that Saul of Tarsus, by his own admission, in his own words, was guilty of two murders.
comparative-religion.com/articles/pauline_conspiracy/pauline_conspiracy1.php
I can find several novels he’s written… and I think that’s his real field of expertise
The Elfin Tree
*Finale *
Sentinel Keep
chroniclesofempire.net/showcase/
He makes this remarkable claim about Paul…
It must also be remembered that Saul of Tarsus, by his own admission, in his own words, was guilty of two murders.
comparative-religion.com/articles/pauline_conspiracy/pauline_conspiracy1.php
P
paarsurrey
Guest
HiSorry Paar but what are you refering to in this site? if its some book to be purchased online, then am sorry i cant purchase online stuff. If you got any idea from your source, please presented here.
There is no book to be purchased, it is a research article. Paul in Paul’s own words, it is an interesting read. Those who want to know truth about Paul, they would know it. No compulsion
Thanks
M
Montalban
Guest
Anyone cam get on-line and publishSorry Paar but what are you refering to in this site? if its some book to be purchased online, then am sorry i cant purchase online stuff. If you got any idea from your source, please presented here.
I
inJESUS
Guest
It is too long …come on Paar…quote small passages you find intresting and that show that the apostle changed history.
P
paarsurrey
Guest
HiIt is too long …come on Paar…quote small passages you find intresting and that show that the apostle changed history.
I will not start Paul bashing, I don’t have to, I love Jesus and Mary and I would be presenting their teachings and their life account which are distinctively different from Paul. Paul is insignificant.
I will be however giving some excerpts from the research article of Mr. A. Victor Garaffa, so that those who have interest in Paul could read the research article themselves and form their own opinion.
“The vision that Paul speaks of, and certainly narrated to Luke, has four different versions. No witnesses are named, but far more important, it had no consistent witnesses. They hear the voice but do not see the light; they see the light but do not hear the voice, in the third they see and hear nothing, and in the fourth, there is no one else save Paul.” By A. Victor Garaffa
Which narration is correct in your honest opinion?
Thanks
B
Booklover
Guest
The fact remains that Pau’s life changed completely from that day.He had been a persecutor of Christians and then joined them and died a martyr for the faith.Hi
I will not start Paul bashing, I don’t have to, I love Jesus and Mary and I would be presenting their teachings and their life account which are distinctively different from Paul. Paul is insignificant.
I will be however giving some excerpts from the research article of Mr. A. Victor Garaffa, so that those who have interest in Paul could read the research article themselves and form their own opinion.
“The vision that Paul speaks of, and certainly narrated to Luke, has four different versions. No witnesses are named, but far more important, it had no consistent witnesses. They hear the voice but do not see the light; they see the light but do not hear the voice, in the third they see and hear nothing, and in the fourth, there is no one else save Paul.” By A. Victor Garaffa
Which narration is correct in your honest opinion?
Thanks
Vickie
D
De_Maria
Guest
All four. We’ll go over them point by point in just a second. But first an anecdote. As for myself, I have frequently recounted my conversion from atheist to Catholic. I have noted that many times my recounting is different, yet it is always truth.Hi
I will not start Paul bashing, I don’t have to, I love Jesus and Mary and I would be presenting their teachings and their life account which are distinctively different from Paul. Paul is insignificant.
I will be however giving some excerpts from the research article of Mr. A. Victor Garaffa, so that those who have interest in Paul could read the research article themselves and form their own opinion.
“The vision that Paul speaks of, and certainly narrated to Luke, has four different versions. No witnesses are named, but far more important, it had no consistent witnesses. They hear the voice but do not see the light; they see the light but do not hear the voice, in the third they see and hear nothing, and in the fourth, there is no one else save Paul.” By A. Victor Garaffa
Which narration is correct in your honest opinion?
Thanks
Sometimes I recount that my conversion began with the birth of my first daughter. Other times I recount that I began to realize the existence of God when I met my wife.Other times I begin when I first learned that our first child, our daughter mentioned above was conceived. There are many variations and many ways that I’ve recounted my own conversion, yet they are all true.
Now lets go over St. Paul’s conversion, point by point, in light of Garafa’s statement:
- No witnesses are named,
Answer: The witness was the powerful conversion and grace which flowed though Paul whose life was witnessed and recounted by St. Luke and whose miracles were witnessed by the entire Church. - But far more important, it had no consistent witnesses.
2a.They hear the voice but do not see the light;
Acts 9:
- 7And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Note also that they heard “a” voice. This doesn’t say whose voice. It might have been angels talking to these men.
**
*2b. they see the light but do not hear the voice,
*Acts 22
** 9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
**Now we know that these men did indeed see a light but saw no man. Nor did they hear “the voice of him that spake to me.” From the previous recounting we know that they indeed heard a voice, but from this recounting we know that they did not hear Jesus’ voice.
***2c. in the third they see and hear nothing,
***Read the account in Acts 26 for yourself. In this account Paul never mentions anything except what he felt, saw and heard. ***
2d. and in the fourth, there is no one else save Paul.” .
***Again, read the account for yourself. Paul only briefly mentions his conversion experience as the time when God pleased to reveal to him His Son. The rest of that account is about what he did after his conversion.
Perhaps Muslims will one day learn that God is in the details.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I
inJESUS
Guest
Hi“The vision that Paul speaks of, and certainly narrated to Luke, has four different versions. No witnesses are named, but far more important, it had no consistent witnesses. **They hear the voice but do not see the light; they see the light but do not hear the voice, in the third they see and hear nothing, and in the fourth, there is no one else save Paul.” **By A. Victor Garaffa
Which narration is correct in your honest opinion?
Thanks
can you please give quotes regarding the highlighted part?
I
inJESUS
Guest
So? what teachings of Paul oppose those ofJesus or the other disciples ?
P
paarsurrey
Guest
HiGod is in the details.
Acts 9 - First Narration of Paul’s Vision by Luke
“As set forth in Acts, this is written by a third party, Luke. Did he receive the story from his friend, Paul, or was he a witness? Paul’s own words bring us a sense of his experience and contradiction”. (It is in third person and not in first person as in second and third narration)
- Light- suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him
Paul- 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” 5"Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. - “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6"Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
- The men-." 7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; (They don’t mention that they saw any light)
- they heard the sound
- but did not see anyone.
- Paul blinded: 8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.
- Ananias (It is not mentioned whether Ananias told Luke of the dream in first person or it was just hearsay?): 10In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!”
“Yes, Lord,” he answered.
13"Lord," Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.”
15But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”
- 17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again.
- He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength.(There is no mention of any Will from JesusofVision ,Paul’s status and mission to the Gentiles here as is mentioned in Chapter-22)
Continued in next post.
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