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LaurenGetty
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Hello Mike, I did understand that to be your signature.
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Zenas
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Albert Mohler, President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, preached a series of sermons over a period of some 15 months at the seminary chapel, each sermon covering a line of the Apostles Creed. For a man who refers to the Catholic Church as “a false church” that “teaches a false gospel”, Mohler exhibits an amazing range of Catholic beliefs. For one thing, taking on the Apostles Creed as a series of sermons at the largest Baptist seminary in the world is pretty remarkable. He embraces every word of the Creed, even the part about the “holy catholic (not Catholic) church.” Of course his take on this pertains to the universality of the church but in doing so he makes a pretty good case for the “holy Catholic Church.” He also holds the wierd belief that Mary is the New Eve. Mohler is a gifted preacher and an intellectual giant, every bit the equivalent of Scott Hahn, and it wouldn’t surprise me to see him convert just as Hahn did. I don’t expect it but it wouldn’t surprise me. His sermons are available for listening on his blog and I will share the site with anyone who wants to PM me.
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SamDash
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I was at a Protestant service once many years ago where the Apostle’s Creed (or perhaps a slight variation) was said (and read off a projected screen).
As we said, We believe in one, holy, catholic, and Apostolic church…" I thought, “Really, you do? Do we happen to be standing in the ONE church right now. I would have imagined the one universal church might have had more than 500 or so members, all living in and around Victoria, TX.”
As we said, We believe in one, holy, catholic, and Apostolic church…" I thought, “Really, you do? Do we happen to be standing in the ONE church right now. I would have imagined the one universal church might have had more than 500 or so members, all living in and around Victoria, TX.”
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Letchitsa1
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I think Archbishop Fulton Sheen’s quote is notable here: People aren’t so much opposed to what the Catholic Church believes as they are to what they think the Catholic Church believes!
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ericka1701
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I was raised PC(USA) and the word catholic (NEVER Catholic) was also used in the Apostles Creed. There are also quite a few more differences with the creed I was raised with than the one in the Catholic Church. Some of it is just differences in words (ie, Creator not Maker, Holy Spirit not Holy Ghost, living and the dead not quick and the dead), but some of them are just minor changes in the wording, but just enough to completely change the meaning of that particular line, and even the meaning of the whole creed. Saying conceived BY the Holy Spirit has a very different meaning the conceived OF the Holy Spirit. Being conceived by the Holy Spirit is saying that while the Holy Spirit is very powerful and can cause great things to happen, it seems to imply the possibility that Jesus is not a part of the Trinity, whereas being conceived OF the Holy Spirit implies that this new conception is a part of the Holy Spirit, and therefore an incarnation of God (which we know to be the second part of the Trinity). One of the biggest differences with the Apostles Creed with the PC(USA) v. the Catholic Church is that in some PC(USA) churches they say “he (Jesus) decended into Hell” after he was “crucified, died, and was buried”. I never got a good explanation for why that was in the creed. This does not include the differences of other denominations, just the PC(USA)
It has been, at least in my experience. The minister at the PC(USA) church I grew up in was very proud of his Reformation roots and somewhat anti-Catholic. It was after one of his speeches on how great the Reformation was and how Catholics were again mistaken in something (it’s been quite a few years, and I can’t really remember specifics), that I began doing my own research. Five years later, I am now a Catholic, because I saw some of the misconceptions of the PC(USA) for what they really were, misconceptions. Behind those misconceptions, I believe I have found full truth. That does not in any way imply that I think that other denominations as false. I do feel that in some instances they get it very right, but there has been no other place that I have found to have the full truth.
God Bless!
Ericka
Isn’t that the truth?
It has been, at least in my experience. The minister at the PC(USA) church I grew up in was very proud of his Reformation roots and somewhat anti-Catholic. It was after one of his speeches on how great the Reformation was and how Catholics were again mistaken in something (it’s been quite a few years, and I can’t really remember specifics), that I began doing my own research. Five years later, I am now a Catholic, because I saw some of the misconceptions of the PC(USA) for what they really were, misconceptions. Behind those misconceptions, I believe I have found full truth. That does not in any way imply that I think that other denominations as false. I do feel that in some instances they get it very right, but there has been no other place that I have found to have the full truth.God Bless!
Ericka
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Ginger2
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Every Church I’ve ever attended has recite “the holy catholic church”
I believe it is the Roman creed that omits the word “catholic” and possibly other creeds.
But the Apostle’s Creed contains the word “catholic” and is recited as such in all Protestant churches I have attended.
Protestants don’t have a problem with it because there is only one church - the body of believers.
I believe it is the Roman creed that omits the word “catholic” and possibly other creeds.
But the Apostle’s Creed contains the word “catholic” and is recited as such in all Protestant churches I have attended.
Protestants don’t have a problem with it because there is only one church - the body of believers.
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Teflon93
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There is no such thing as “the Roman creed”, so you’re quite mistaken.
Here is the Nicene Creed, recited every Mass:
The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
(all bow their heads during the next three lines)
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified
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under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
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to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son
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he is worshiped and glorified.**We believe in one holy catholic
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and apostolic Church**.
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for the forgiveness of sins.and the life of the world to come. Amen.
But not in all Protestant communities, as we have seen.
Says who?
Who speaks for all of Protestantism in this regard?
If I produce a Protestant community which does have a problem with the Apostles Creed and Nicene Creed referring to the “holy catholic” church, what would you say?
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Ginger2
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Google it.
The Old Roman Creed. This creed developed about A.D. 200. It supposedly came from the Apostles themselves. From three questions, this creed expanded to thirteen positive statements all affirming the deity and lordship of Christ.
The Apostles Creed. This creed grew out of the old Roman creed. It has early origins but you won’t find it in its present form until about A.D. 650.
Totally blows your theory away about Protestants removing the word “catholic”, doesn’t it.
I said all that I have attended. I did not say I have attended all Protestant churches.
I guess I would ask why and then explain it to them.
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Teflon93
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I did and you are indeed correct: there was an Old Roman Creed:
I believe in God the Father almighty;
and in Christ Jesus His only Son, our Lord,
Who was born from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary,
Who under Pontius Pilate was crucified and buried,
on the third day rose again from the dead,
ascended to heaven,
sits at the right hand of the Father,
whence He will come to judge the living and the dead;
and in the Holy Spirit,
**the holy Church, **
the remission of sins,
the resurrection of the flesh
(the life everlasting).[6]
It refers to the one Church, not a plethora of Churches, though. The Body of Christ undivided.
Perhaps you can provide evidence that the Latin “ecclesiam” referred to an invisible body of believers strewn across many disagreeing communities and believing many different things.
I don’t see the three questions.
Only if you can show me where Protestants received the Old Roman Creed in 1520 rather than the Nicene Creed. Or that Protestants do not today use the Nicene Creed.
Totally blows your theory of Protestant unity away, doesn’t it?
Get going–you have a number of communities to return to the fold.
I note that you didn’t answer as to who speaks for all of Protestantism.
The answer is, “No one.”
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Ginger2
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Agreed! One Church consisting of all who are saved in Christ Jesus. It is said the original Roman Creed which does not have the word “catholic” preceded the modern version which added the word “catholic”.
I can show you in Scriptures when I return from an interview this morning.
I am stating the older version does not contain the word “catholic”. AND that my experience is Protestants recite the Apostle’s Creed most often and include the word “catholic” without problem.
I cannot say there aren’t churches out there that refuse to recite creeds containing the word “catholic”. I can only say that I have never heard a Protestant object to it. I did hear one ask why it is in there and she seemed to accept the answer.
God.
If what they claim is contrary to basic Christian doctrine, then they are “Christian” in name alone.
All true Christians agree on basic fundamental doctrine found in the Holy Scriptures and summarized in the Apostle’s Creed -Even Catholics.
This is the foundation of the Christian faith. If they don’t agree with it, then they are not really Christians, are they.
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CentralFLJames
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Are you signaling by use of the word “saved in Christ” that you understand the Catholic notion of “The Church” being comprised of three parts : 1) Church Militant (fighting Satan here on earth) 2) Church Penitent (those judged “Saved” by God but in purgatory completing their final purification) and 3) Church Triumph (those judged by God to be “saved” and in the fully perfected purity (both justified and sanctified in Christ and fully transformed)?
Catholics all know that none of us may commit the grave sin of “presuming” we are “saved” until God in His sovereignty judges us to be saved. While we can have a certain confidence that we are conforming to His commandments and are forgiven in sacramental confession none of us is free to judge ourselves and imagine that God has no judgement in the matter. It is said that the sin of presumption is one form that the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit can take since this sin presumes that we may judge ourselves as “righteous” without God having the sole right to judge.
On the matter of the historicity of the Old Creed - of course none of the Creed is explicitly in the Bible. So bible-only Christians are not allowed to recite the apostolic creed since its extra-biblical and comes from the oral traditions of the apostles and The Catholic Church.
Only those Christians standing in union with Christ’s body, that is The Catholic Church, who follow the Catholic Church traditions and teaching can be properly predisposed to recite this prayer and in a genuine spirit of truth.Except for the Catholic Church telling you - how do you know that Old Creed is genuine if it is not in the bible?
BTW, the word “Catholic” is axiomatic in the words “the” and in the combined expressive words “the holy church”. There is only one holy church just like there is only one Body of Christ and therefor owing to its uniqueness (as well as its ubiquitousness through the mystical link with Christ) it is universal and therefor “Catholic” - afterall universal is what “Catholic” means.
True, God will speak in judgement of all nations and man-made institutions and even His Bride- The Catholic Church. There will be many who will be condemned and complain “but we called you Lord Lord and drove out demons in your name” but Christ has already told us that not everyone who calls Him “Lord Lord” are known to Him and has warned that ‘those who reject who He has sent and put in authority over His church (the ecclesial episcopate through apostolic succession) will also be rejected’.
Correct - all true Christians believe in one faith and all the core tenants - baptism, 7 sacraments through properly ordained apostolic priests and teaching authority of The Church - The Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. Those outside of this faith are on extremely thin ice and will be judged both by what they knew and by what they deliberately neglected to know but should have.
James
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Genesis315
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The word “Catholic” was originally used to denote the whole Church throughout the world, rather than a particular Church in a certain locale (ie Church of Rome, Church of Corinth, etc.). As schismatical and heretical groups sprung up, the word Catholic grew to also signify the true Church, since these separated groups were not part of the whole.
Obviously, the Protestants/evangelicals that use it have a different definition of “Church”–to them, the whole Church is all denominations put together or all anonymous true believers, etc. (I don’t think there are many Protestant/evangelical groups left who see their denomination as the sole Church of Christ anymore).
Obviously, the Protestants/evangelicals that use it have a different definition of “Church”–to them, the whole Church is all denominations put together or all anonymous true believers, etc. (I don’t think there are many Protestant/evangelical groups left who see their denomination as the sole Church of Christ anymore).
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Letchitsa1
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When I was still Protestant (Methodist specifically) - we understood catholic as it is used in the creed to mean universal, which included all Christian churches, including the Catholics.
As a deacon friend of mine who is also a convert to the faith once noted - come that final day, when we’re all in either Heaven or Hell, there’s going to be a number of both Catholics and Protestants surprised at the number of the others that are in Heaven or Hell with them.
As a deacon friend of mine who is also a convert to the faith once noted - come that final day, when we’re all in either Heaven or Hell, there’s going to be a number of both Catholics and Protestants surprised at the number of the others that are in Heaven or Hell with them.
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Ginger2
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Good. It’s nice to find points of agreement.
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Ginger2
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It is a summary of doctrine found in the Bible. That’s how I know.
I believe in God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
born of the Virgin Mary, Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name [was] Mary.
suffered under Pontius Pilate, Luke 23:16 I will therefore chastise him, and release [him].
was crucified, Luk 23:23 And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. …24 And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required.
died, Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
and was buried. Luk 23:52 This [man] went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
He descended into hell. Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
etc., etc., etc.,
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mercygate
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You would really appreciate the treatment of the Creed in The Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is the first of the four sections of the Catechism and is saturated with references from Scripture and the Fathers. A friend of mine, who is Plymouth Brethren, keeps a copy in his car just to have it handy whenever he wants to look something up.
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Teflon93
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Catholic means “universal”. One holy Church and one “holy, catholic, and apostolic Church” are synonymous—the latter merely emphasizes what “one” implies.
You’ll have a hard time doing that unless you’re using Jerome’s vulgate. The Old Roman Creed was in Latin; my question was “Where in Latin do we see “ecclesiam” refer to an invisible community of believers who disagree on fundamentals of the faith?”
Scripture would be good in addition, but then you’ll need to explain St Paul’s calls for unity. If it didn’t matter whether or not the faithful resided in various heretical communities, you’ll have to account for the epistles to the Corinthians for starters.
Are you claiming to speak for all Protestants?
Well, just ask some of the folks on this board who belong to anti-Catholic communities. They aren’t hard to spot and they will surely provide you an interesting response to this question.
You will have to enlighten us as to these fundamentals, particularly as we’ve already noted not all Protestants adopt even the Apostle’s Creed, nor are all Protestants Trinitarian.
Where in Scripture might I find the Old Roman Creed, the Apostle’s Creed, or the Nicene Creed, by the way?
You said it, not me.
But who drums them out of Christianity in Protestantism?
The Catholic Church applies a much simpler standard for being called Christians and a most Scriptural one at that.
If you were baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, you may be called a Christian and Catholics will call you “brother” or “sister”.
Unfortunately, there are many standards out there for who may be called a Christian, which is why I think you’re mistaken in assuming that God has decreed ALL of these standards.
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Teflon93
Guest
The mystery of the Holy Trinity only having been elucidated after the New Testament was written and only clearly articulated as a series of de fides by the Catholic Church in the 4th century, you will of course find the various Creeds in no Bible.
Those Protestants who hold to them are in fact holding to an extra-Scriptural tradition of the Church.
Catholics have no problem with this, since Scripture is a product of Tradition.
Those Protestants who evince the heresy of sola scriptura, however, must dance mightily to square this circle.
Those Protestants who hold to them are in fact holding to an extra-Scriptural tradition of the Church.
Catholics have no problem with this, since Scripture is a product of Tradition.
Those Protestants who evince the heresy of sola scriptura, however, must dance mightily to square this circle.
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Ginger2
Guest
My apologies for any confusion. I was on my way out the door when I responded.
First, why would you assume I would go to men and councils over the Scriptures to find answers? I am Protestant, remember?
So from the Scriptures I would show “an invisible community of believers”
As for your suggestion of, “an invisible community of believers believers who disagree on fundamentals of the faith”
Why would I try to prove that? I didn’t claim such a thing. I said those who disagree with basic doctrines of Christianity are Christian in name - only!
Again I am not claiming heretics are part of the body of believers. If they disagree with the basic doctrines of Christianity, by definition, they are not Christians.
If I claim to be a vegan and then eat meat and diary products, am I really a vegan? No. And believe Jesus was only a man and nothing more, I am really a Christian?
No. I did I say “all protestants” anything? No. I said I have never heard any Protestant object to the word “catholic”. My point is that you are making a blanket claim that Protestants removed the word “catholic”. If that were true why is it so rare to find any that object?
What if I said Catholics secretly believe birth control is moral and acceptable? Some do, but my statement would be false as it insinuates that idea is common and widespread among Catholics.
See my point?
I’ve already responded to this
lol. I’m sorry, but I know atheists who were Baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Again, I never claimed “God decreed all standards” for being Christian. On the contrary, I said only the standards set forth in Scripture or valid. These are the standards set forth by God.
We must believe. “Believe” doesn’t mean “believe whatever you please”.
Mark 16:16 Jesus says, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.”
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Teflon93
Guest
Because you cannot answer a question about a Latin phrase from a text originally written in Greek and Hebrew.
I hope you don’t use the Bible for home repair instruction. It isn’t well-suited for that purpose.
Likewise, the Bible having been written and compiled very near to the 1st century A.D., a time when the Church was repressed and many Apostles martyred, you will look in vain to it for full-fledged theology.
This is why Protestants have theological institutions of their own, you know. Were Scripture self-interpreting and fully comprehensive, there would simply be no need for such institutions.
Indeed, you will have to elaborate on these Christian “fundamentals”. What precisely are they? Where are they found? Who articulated them first?
Yes, please do.
You will be conceding the Old Roman Creed question, of course, but I’ll bite.
But that is precisely the case in Protestantism. You have to define the lowest common denominator among the various conflicting doctrines of the various communities within Protestantism. C.S. Lewis called this “mere Christianity”.
As an Anglican himself, though, Lewis’ definition of it has not found universal acceptance among Protestants.
Yes, but who defines your de fides and where are they defined?
An easy question for a Catholic, an impossible one for a Protestant.
Agreed, but then, the Catholic Church has since its inception always been able to do what Christ bid us do in Matthew when he told us to bring our brother before the Church (which begs the question “If the Church is invisible, where do we bring him?”) and if he does not listen to the Church, treat him as a “heathen man and publican.”
So who’s to call someone a heretic among Protestants? On what basis do they do so?
Can you point me toward any 20th century Protestants who’ve been found to be a heretic and thus excluded from Christianity?
You shall have to make the case from Scripture that Christ, the Son of God, was in fact God.
There is a good reason why the doctrine of the Trinity now found as nearly the sole common definition of Christianity was not articulated until the 4th century.
And yes, St Stephen among other early Christians may well have gone to his death not knowing that Christ was God. At least not knowing it as we know it, because the Nicene Creed has become our core list of de fides. They were still Christians.
And, since heresy requires the rejection of a de fide of the Church, they were not heretics, the de fides regarding the nature of the Trinity not being defined until long after their martyrdom.
You need only look at the Protestant communities which refuse to use either the Apostle’s Creed or the Nicene Creed in the form the Church provided them. Try Googling “Whore of Babylon” and you’ll uncover a whole bunch of these.
No, the statement would be accurate. Catholics believe many things, some of which are false.
The Catholic Church, on the other hand, believes something quite different.
Where you go astray is that you conflate the two. It is our obligation to follow the Church, not to follow our own silly ideas.
The trouble in the Protestant communities is that their clergy very rarely speak with anything like one voice.
Which is why you can’t answer the question, “Who speaks for all Protestants?”
The answer is “No one.”
Yes, and they are Christians. The Prodigal Son was still a son.
And how did you determine that only the stanards set forth in Scripture are valid?
You previously claimed that for example one must believe Christ to be God to be a Christian. Where in Scripture does Christ so command?
Except when most Protestants interpret John 6.
Yes, one must believe to be baptized. We baptized my son several months ago because we believe, as the man baptized his whole household, including one presumes several who were either to young or too unfamiliar with Christ to believe on their own.
And since salvation is not a onetime event but a lifetime event (which is why St Paul urged us to work out our own with fear and trembling), there is hope yet even for those baptized atheists.
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