apostolic church

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😃 I don’t think determining someone’s faith or denomination by what they’re wearing is the best idea.

(Of course, I really shouldn’t be one to talk. I remember several years ago when I saw a Simpsons episode with Reverend Lovejoy wearing black with a Roman collar, causing me to exclaim “What?! Reverend Lovejoy isn’t a Catholic priest!” or something like that. Fortunately, one of my roommates then explained to me that Episcopal clergy dress that way too.)
 
Peter_J said:
😃 I don’t think determining someone’s faith or denomination by what they’re wearing is the best idea.

(Of course, I really shouldn’t be one to talk. I remember several years ago when I saw a Simpsons episode with Reverend Lovejoy wearing black with a Roman collar, causing me to exclaim “What?! Reverend Lovejoy isn’t a Catholic priest!” or something like that. Fortunately, one of my roommates then explained to me that Episcopal clergy dress that way too.)
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Actually, the Simpsons are members of the Western branch of American Reform Presbylutheranism. 😃
 
if we talk about orthodox church in my country we have such, officially with 70-80 % of the people. it is authochephalic one. that means the Patriarch is the highest level and he does that episcops are appointed. those must be " white clerics ", means not married. otherwise, they can stay only as priests.
Orthodox Church has apostolic succession and valid sacraments.
 
Ignatius said:
Is this a Byzantine Catholic or an Orthodox priest? The vestments would be the same in either case.
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idk.
but these were the same vestments that I saw a priest wearing at the Eucharistic Congress. (and many papal masses)
 
SacredHeartFan said:
idk.
but these were the same vestments that I saw a priest wearing at the Eucharistic Congress. (and many papal masses)
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Yup, the Eastern Orthodox and Byzantine Catholics have the same vestments. You can’t tell by looking at them, you have to speak with them to find out if they are Orthodox or Catholic. Same with the Coptic Catholics and Coptic Orthodox. The difference is that the Catholics are in communion with the Holy See. You can’t tell that by looking at someone.
 
no, Byzantine Catholics are with the same outlook as Roman Catholic priests. nothing similar to orthodox priests clothes
at least in my country.
 
Peter_J said:
Um, no. “Those in full communion with Rome” are Catholics, hence they celebrate a Catholic liturgy (mass). They don’t/can’t concelebrate with the Orthodox.
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Well what about the Solemn Mass and imposition of the palium? Patriarch Barthalomue (sp?) was there.
 
SacredHeartFan said:
Well what about the Solemn Mass and imposition of the palium? Patriarch Barthalomue (sp?) was there.
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If he was not vested, he was there as a guest. I don’t know how many times this happened in the past but it’s kind of a yawner. :yawn:

This happens all the time between Latin Catholic (or Greek Catholic) and Orthodox clergy actually, most significantly at funerals but also at installations. They will be present as guests and as a gesture of goodwill in each others temples.

What is possibly problematic about this though, is that the Pallium (an Omophorion) has a symbolism in the west that it does not carry in the east, namely that a prelate theoretically has no authority without one being conferred by the Bishop of Rome.

An interesting sidelight to this (please correct me if I am wrong here) is that Metropolitan Basil of Pittsburgh for the Ruthenians does not have one (as far as I can tell) and he seems to be functioning just fine.
 
Hesychios said:
If he was not vested, he was there as a guest. I don’t know how many times this happened in the past but it’s kind of a yawner. :yawn:

This happens all the time between Latin Catholic (or Greek Catholic) and Orthodox clergy actually, most significantly at funerals but also at installations. They will be present as guests and as a gesture of goodwill in each others temples.

What is possibly problematic about this though, is that the Pallium (an Omophorion) has a symbolism in the west that it does not carry in the east, namely that a prelate theoretically has no authority without one being conferred by the Bishop of Rome.

An interesting sidelight to this (please correct me if I am wrong here) is that Metropolitan Basil of Pittsburgh for the Ruthenians does not have one (as far as I can tell) and he seems to be functioning just fine.
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He was indeed and he sat right next to the Pope. He gave the people his blessing and an Orthodox Deacon read read the Gospel in Greek and then a Roman Deacon went and read it back in latin. He even kissed the alter with Pope Benedict at the begining of mass. I love the way that the Pope and the Patriarch were put on the same level as each other and not making the pope look more powerful. They walked side by side during the entrance and exit procession, and their chairs were exactly the same.

There is a re-play of the mass at 8:30 central time on EWTN.
 
I almost forgot. They both prayed during their homolies for full communion with each other.
 
SacredHeartFan, i feel like lots of people brought up points that could confuse someone who is unfamiliar with Eastern Christianity, so i want to address some of those.

First, the Pope of Alexandria: The Bishop of Alexandria (who is the successor of St. Mark in the same way the Bishop of Rome is the successor of St. Peter, and the Bishop of Constantinople that of St. Andrew) is the Patrarich of the Coptic Orthodox Church, the remnant of Christian Egypt before the Islamic Arab invasions. The Patriarch of Alexander uses the title “pope,” meaning “father.” It is an honorific title; it does not mean that the Copts “have their own pope” to replace Rome’s. It just means that Copts and Romans ended up using the same honorary title. Either could easily be called something else without changing who they are or what they do. In fact, the Pope of Alexandria used the title far earlier than the Pope of Rome did.

On Eastern Priests concelebrating with Latins: As others have said, Eastern Orthodox clergy cannot concelebrate the Divine Liturgy (which is, of course, called “Mass” by us Roman Catholics) with Catholic clergy. The two churches are not in full communion. However, as the two churches continue to become closer, lots of times Orthodox and Catholic clergy will be guests at each others’ liturgies. Pope Benedict and Patriarch Bartholomew have brought this to a new level of visibility and pomp.

However, what you probably saw were Eastern Catholics, who are those Eastern or Oriental Christians who either never split away from Rome, or who returned to full communion after a schism. There is a group of Eastern Catholics for pretty much every type of Eastern Church not in communion with Rome. There are many Byzantine Catholics who celebrate the same liturgy, the same feast days, and wear the same vestments as the Eastern (Greek/Russian/etc) Orthodox. There are Coptic Catholics who celebrate identically to the Coptic Orthodox. There are Chaldean Catholics who celebrate pretty much identically to the Assyrian Christians.

Remember, the Catholic Church is made up of MANY churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome. The Roman Church is just one of many, 23 to be exact. Many have different heritages, rituals, and ways of expression Catholic beliefs. Any member of ONE of those churches can receive the sacraments from any other. So you could, for instance, go to Ukrain, and go to a Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and you could not receive the Eucharist because the Orthodox are not in full Communion with Rome. However, you could walk across the street to a Ukrainian Catholic church, where the liturgy would be identical in every way (except they pray for the Pope) and receive the Eucharist, because they are in full comunion with Rome.

If you see an Eastern Christian and a Western (Latin) Christian celebrating liturgy together, then the Eastern Christian is Eastern Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox.
 
belgianwaffles9 said:
SacredHeartFan, i feel like lots of people brought up points that could confuse someone who is unfamiliar with Eastern Christianity, so i want to address some of those.

First, the Pope of Alexandria: The Bishop of Alexandria (who is the successor of St. Mark in the same way the Bishop of Rome is the successor of St. Peter, and the Bishop of Constantinople that of St. Andrew) is the Patrarich of the Coptic Orthodox Church, the remnant of Christian Egypt before the Islamic Arab invasions. The Patriarch of Alexander uses the title “pope,” meaning “father.” It is an honorific title; it does not mean that the Copts “have their own pope” to replace Rome’s. It just means that Copts and Romans ended up using the same honorary title. Either could easily be called something else without changing who they are or what they do. In fact, the Pope of Alexandria used the title far earlier than the Pope of Rome did.

On Eastern Priests concelebrating with Latins: As others have said, Eastern Orthodox clergy cannot concelebrate the Divine Liturgy (which is, of course, called “Mass” by us Roman Catholics) with Catholic clergy. The two churches are not in full communion. However, as the two churches continue to become closer, lots of times Orthodox and Catholic clergy will be guests at each others’ liturgies. Pope Benedict and Patriarch Bartholomew have brought this to a new level of visibility and pomp.

However, what you probably saw were Eastern Catholics, who are those Eastern or Oriental Christians who either never split away from Rome, or who returned to full communion after a schism. There is a group of Eastern Catholics for pretty much every type of Eastern Church not in communion with Rome. There are many Byzantine Catholics who celebrate the same liturgy, the same feast days, and wear the same vestments as the Eastern (Greek/Russian/etc) Orthodox. There are Coptic Catholics who celebrate identically to the Coptic Orthodox. There are Chaldean Catholics who celebrate pretty much identically to the Assyrian Christians.

Remember, the Catholic Church is made up of MANY churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome. The Roman Church is just one of many, 23 to be exact. Many have different heritages, rituals, and ways of expression Catholic beliefs. Any member of ONE of those churches can receive the sacraments from any other. So you could, for instance, go to Ukrain, and go to a Ukrainian Orthodox Church, and you could not receive the Eucharist because the Orthodox are not in full Communion with Rome. However, you could walk across the street to a Ukrainian Catholic church, where the liturgy would be identical in every way (except they pray for the Pope) and receive the Eucharist, because they are in full comunion with Rome.

If you see an Eastern Christian and a Western (Latin) Christian celebrating liturgy together, then the Eastern Christian is Eastern Catholic, not Eastern Orthodox.
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THANK YOU!!! :extrahappy: THIS IS WHAT I’VE BEEN LOOKING FOR!!!
 
If I could add something, the Ecumenical Patriarch is historically the Successor of St. Andrew, just as the Pope is the Successor of St. Peter. For me, when I first read about Eastern Christianity, the hard part is to understand that this is not analogous to Protestantism, in that Protestants do not have Apostolic Succession or the 7 Sacraments. Eastern Christians, whether in Full-Communion with Rome or not are all valid clergy with valid Apostolic Succession. While they do have the 7 Sacraments, often, especially in the Byzantine Rite, you will see the word “Mystery” used instead of Sacrament. This doesn’t mean that they’re not the Sacraments, it’s just a different term that’s used.

Actually, within the Catholic Church and Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, there are many multiple ways of celebrating the Liturgy. As Latin Catholics, we call it the Mass, after the Latin phrase “Ite, Missa est.” Not every Rite uses Latin, though. Byzantine Catholics use the Byzantine Rite, and call it the Divine Liturgy (of St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil). Maronites, who use Arabic, Syriac, and Aramaic, will use the word Qurbono. While these all might not on the surface look the same, they are all valid Liturgies that fullfill your Sunday obligation, when attended at a Church in Communion with Rome.
 
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