Apparently the good Bishop Hasn't Read the New Arizona Immigration Law

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WatchingMedia said:
Clearly you haven’t read the law.
Further, if you had read the law, you would see that it is clearly directed at those who are breaking other laws first, not the average man on the street.
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Yes, I have read the law, both the original and revised. You were not short. You were insulting and patronizing. I am intimately familiar with deportation due process and I still think police should not be take mandated enforcement action on their own, except when an eminant danger exists.

I said nothing innaccurate. I neither said nor implied that the law was directed at anyone other than those who was breaking some other law first. Check your own eye for a beam first.
 
The law is the law. Illegal means illegal.

If a person breaks the law, they should be punished accordingly. Illegally entering a country should result in being made to leave the country. Its not rocket science.
 
WatchingMedia said:
All immigrants (non-citizens) must carry a Green Card (or other paperwork) on their person at all times. This is a Federal law.

Why wouldn’t these Bishops want them to obey the law of the land which is a requirement in the Catechism ?

This is the USA. Everyone in the US is presumed innocent until proven guilty - and that includes the State of Arizona police being innocent.

What are some of these Bishops thinking? They should differentiate when they are giving their own personal political opinions, so the press won’t think its coming from the Catholic Church.

Perhaps they are just like Eric Holder, Obama’s US Attorney General who admitted yesterday before Congress that he had not read the law.
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The problem is this;

I’m a white Canadian. If I for some reason moved to Arizona illegally, and the new policy calls for checking people who the police suspect is an illegal, they won’t even look at me because what white guys are coming to America illegally?

My neighbour is a British guy. Is there any reason to suspect that he is an illegal? Probably not. No one would make the assertion that he’s in Canada illegally.

Most illegal immigrants are Mexicans and while it’s a good thing that they want to find illegal immigrants, this law basically says "round up the Mexicans and see which ones are illegal. How do I know this? If the police only need to suspect someone is an illegal in order to check whether they are or not, they’re going to go after every Mexican they see, not white Canadian guys like Steve Nash. If I were a Mexican, I’d be terrified of going to Arizona.

It’s like arresting all priests to see if they’re pedophiles or not. It’s an unfair law. I know some will say the Catechism says we are to respect all laws, but unjust laws have to be revoked.
 
Mimi said:
Okay, this may be wandering into politics, but…

AZ has the right to protect its citizens. The Feds were supposed to have been protecting the border (it’s one of their Main Jobs), but were not; haven’t been for years.

So if the Feds are not doing the job, then I think state of AZ MUST step in to protect citizens who want to live there, are law-abiding, pay their taxes in order to live there, etc.

A friend told me that her friend who lives in AZ keeps an extra refrigerator out on the porch, outside of the home, just so illegal immigrants who come through looking for food and water won’t BREAK INTO THE HOUSE.

I’ve also read (or heard on the radio) that people coming across the border leave trash and human waste in people’s yards. That just should not happen, yet property owners in AZ (and other border states) have to put up with this!

Thank you kimmielittle for all the links provided. You are learning a lot, aren’t you?

As far as carrying I.D., if stopped for a traffic violation in my state, if I do not have a valid driver’s license on me, I believe I have 24 hrs to provide one.

There is a move here to give immigrants temporary licenses. I have a problem with that, especially if they can’t read English well enough to pass a driving test. This is one of the things supported by the many Alinsky-style community organizations all over the country, by the way.
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Bishops should help us understand how to help those in need, but still admonish those who break the law. Without adherance to and enforcement of the law, we will have anarchy!
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Mimi
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👍👍

Hiyas:)

You are very welcome…for the links. Yes, ever since Mr Gore told us kids that Polar Bears were dieing and I found out that was wrong…but my teachers wouldn’t address my concerns about false information being told us, as “educational truths”…I’ve learned to source my resources.

Can Educators teach us right from wrong out of the corner of their mouths? That is why I bolded your last statement.

kimmie
 
Gift_from_God said:
The problem is this;

I’m a white Canadian. If I for some reason moved to Arizona illegally, and the new policy calls for checking people who the police suspect is an illegal, they won’t even look at me because what white guys are coming to America illegally?
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Actually, if there is Probable Cause to stop you for breaking another law -This is where the Arizona and Federal Laws ask you to produce ID of citizenship No matter what Nationality / Race.
My neighbour is a British guy. Is there any reason to suspect that he is an illegal? Probably not. No one would make the assertion that he’s in Canada illegally.
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If he / she is breaking a Canadian Law…they are required to produce ID - If in the course of checking that ID they find out that person is in country illegally - they face deportation
Most illegal immigrants are Mexicans and while it’s a good thing that they want to find illegal immigrants, this law basically says "round up the Mexicans and see which ones are illegal.
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This is absolutely an incorrect statement. Here are the Laws The 1940 Naturalization Laws can be found library.uwb.edu/guides/USimmi…tat%201137.pdf . These are the laws illegals have made a conscious effort daily ] to break.

Here is the Arizona Law SB1070 azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

I invite you , or anyone, to read these laws and show especially the Arizona Law ] any base for your above statement…It’s just not there:)
 
josephdaniel29 said:
First of all how many people on this forum have ever been stopped for jaywalking and second, do all of you really go out in public without your ID? :confused:
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I rarely have an ID in public, and I have been stopped/questioned by the police for several random things, but not jaywalking specifically. I wasn’t doing anything illegal, btw. That is just the price we pay for having police. Regular citizens are going to be stopped during the regular course of their lives because a police officer thinks they are suspicious.

And what someone else said is right, you do need ID for lots of things in the USA. Or, at least, it is a total inconvenience not to have one for certain things. It ranges from simple things, like using a credit card at Wal-mart, to more necessary things, like seeing a doctor.
 
Gift_from_God said:
If I were a Mexican, I’d be terrified of going to Arizona.

It’s like arresting all priests to see if they’re pedophiles or not. It’s an unfair law. I know some will say the Catechism says we are to respect all laws, but unjust laws have to be revoked.
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Do you mean all Mexicans, or just those who cross the border illegally?

Proving that someone is not a pedophile is an impossible task. Proving that one is not an illegal immigrant is very easy, there’s actually a card that says it.
 
To our Canadian friend -

If you plan on breaking any laws in Arizona, make sure to have your pass-port with you. Isn’t it a requirement that Canadians and Americans are required to have passports these days when in each other’s Countries ?
 
Any illegal immigrant who has already broken the immigration laws by Illegally entering this County does not need to fear - - - unless they decide to break a different law as well.
Please read the law verbatim.

Further even if they do break the two laws (immigration and something else) they have the right of due process, going to Court.- Innocent until proven guilty.

For all those who read the Arizona law, there is no mandate on Police officers, - except that they may not discriminate, and that they may not stop anyone unless suspected of a crime.

securetheborder.org/
 
There are a couple of other issues here:

With respect to a national ID: we don’t have [and I hope we never have] a “Big Brother” requirement for a standardized national ID and be in the Big Brother data bank.

However, in my opinion, everyone should carry ID of some kind, NOT because of fear of police, but what if you are minding your own business and get hit by a car or have some other kind of accident, you wouldn’t want to be taken to a hospital perhaps unconscious with no way for the staff to be able to look you up in their system or notify your relatives or call a priest for you.

More casually, if you are out for a walk of a Saturday or of an evening and decide to stop somewhere for an adult beverage and if the establishment cards you, and if you don’t have appropriate ID, then you ain’t getting a drink.
 
Jermosh said:
Why would you need your ID if your going out for a walk?
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So when the police say, “Papers, please” we have proof for our right to be at a certain location. We are a frog in water that is heating to a boil, giving up our rights a little at a time.
 
Jermosh said:
Why would you need your ID if your going out for a walk?
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Well assuming we are still talking about the Arizona law, why do you think you would get picked up by the cops for going out for a walk?

Anyone who thinks this is suddenly going to happen in Arizona or anywhere else is living in a dream world. The cops are too busy to do that unless the person was already suspected of committing another crime.

The people we are talking about are those who are going to be stopped anyway for committing a crime or being a reasonable suspect. I don’t care if you are black, Hispanic, or lilly white, if you are picked up as a suspect of a crime, you better be able to prove who you are.
 
Corki said:
Well assuming we are still talking about the Arizona law, why do you think you would get picked up by the cops for going out for a walk?
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It is certainly within my experience that you can be stopped by the police while taking a walk in your neighborhood. Perhaps there has been a gun crime nearby and they are talking to people in the area. They *have *asked for an ID in this situation. Maybe they need to know that you aren’t Suzie’s cousin Antonio.

I doubt you’re going to get picked up, though.
 
pnewton said:
So when the police say, “Papers, please” we have proof for our right to be at a certain location. We are a frog in water that is heating to a boil, giving up our rights a little at a time.
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And illegals are stealing our rights
 
pnewton said:
So when the police say, “Papers, please” we have proof for our right to be at a certain location. We are a frog in water that is heating to a boil, giving up our rights a little at a time.
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Even though this has not happened, explain what right would be lost if you were required to have some form of identification at all times.
 
tjm190 said:
Even though this has not happened, explain what right would be lost if you were required to have some form of identification at all times.
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I am sorry. I worded that poorly. I meant giving up freedom. In this case, the freedom to move about without governmental permission. I also consider any action based upon a lack of documentation to be an arrest without probable cause. According to the fourth amendment, the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, the first one, the right to be secure in your person, means that police must have some probable cause to search you.
 
Corki said:
Well assuming we are still talking about the Arizona law, why do you think you would get picked up by the cops for going out for a walk?

Anyone who thinks this is suddenly going to happen in Arizona or anywhere else is living in a dream world. The cops are too busy to do that unless the person was already suspected of committing another crime.

The people we are talking about are those who are going to be stopped anyway for committing a crime or being a reasonable suspect. I don’t care if you are black, Hispanic, or lilly white, if you are picked up as a suspect of a crime, you better be able to prove who you are.
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Let say you decided to cross the street while it was empty, or did not wait till you got the proper signal before crossing, or there was a local crime. The list is endless.

Little scary story, today I had to go to the DMV to have my DL updated with a new photo. The line was huge and filled with people and their kids. Here to find out, they were all getting IDs for their children, even though they are US citizens by naturalization, their kids still have an accent and are Hispanic. How scary is it when a US citizen is that scared of a law that they need to get IDs for their children to walk about within the US?
 
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