Apparitions of Mary

[Eschato]

I have also visited Medjugorje, righteousone - and seen and felt, yes, great faith, which is to be commended and encouraged at all times as long as it is a correct faith.

But great faith is no barometer of whether or not Our Lady is genuinely appearing there - I also saw and felt it while talking to a large group of devout Catholics at a recent Right to Life Association dinner that I attended - and Mary certainly wasn’t appearing there.

Furthermore, I find some of the pronouncements from the ‘visionaries’ of Medjugorje extremely disturbing, such as their assertion that Paul VI was replaced by an impostor

And the behaviour particularly of the Medjugorje ‘visionary’ Ivan who tours the world making money by asserting that Mary appears to him every day no matter where he is. Could you imagine St Margaret Mary, St Bernadette, St Faustina or Blessed Sr Lucia of Fatima even contemplating being involved in such sordid activities? :bigyikes:

Overall, we’d all be well advised to take Medj with a grain of salt.

Pope replaced by an impostor? Interesting indeed. Put on your tinfoil hats! Well, anyway, you bring up probably the most relevant point here, and that is that whether you believe or not, you should not place your whole measure of faith in something that the Church doesn’t even claim to partially understand.

I would like info on that Paul VI claim, though. I do question how much money Ivan actually “makes” on account of his apparitions. Is it actually as you make it seem, or more in a Biblical sense of receiving what is given to you, and turning nothing away… you know, speaking to those who will listen.

If Mary told Lucia to travel the world and spread a message of repentance, I don’t think that she would have thought twice about it. I mean, she did drink of some nasty muddy water at the request of Our Lady.

 

[Righteousone]

I want one person to come forward and say they have proof the Blessed Mother is not appearing to Ivan. No one knows this for sure…why bother to comment with negativity when you do not know???

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

I want one person to come forward and say they have proof the Blessed Mother is not appearing to Ivan. No one knows this for sure…why bother to comment with negativity when you do not know???

That’s not fair. We too are looking for proof that the Blessed Mother is appearing to Ivan.

I think LilyM covered it well in post # 58.

 

[theistgal]

The Church does not require anyone to accept any private revelations of any kind. She does recommend some (like Lourdes and Fatima) as more worthy of devotion than others. But you are free to reject them if you don’t find them plausible. And even if you accept them, you should be careful not to become an “apparition chaser”.

Fr. Benedict Groeschel of EWTN wrote a great book a few years ago called “A Still Small Voice” - I believe it is still in print - if you can find it, it is a very readable, practical and wise guide to the whole business of apparitions and private revelations.

He believes they occur, but explains why you don’t necessarily have to - and why sometimes you shouldn’t. Very much worth seeking this book out if you can find it.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The same argument about the Trinity. If God wants it to happen that way, who are we to question him?

Muslims would say how can God has a Son when he never had a wife. And we say, why not?

There were miracles that did happen when they happened. Usually the church is very consevative in granting recognition just to make sure that they were authentic. We should be obedient to the church’s decision but in the meantime should examine any purported miracles for truth. Did they really happen and not some pranks played by naugthy individuals. What are their effects to Christians? Do they bring about goodness or increase in faith? These may bring some clues about their authenticity.

God-sent miracles would not contradict the Faith. “Bleeding Hosts” do - apart from those that are mistakenly identified as bleeding, which can be ignored. The contradiction comes from the fact that the Eucharistic Presence is not able to be proved, because it depends on the grace of faith: to prove it is to contradict its character, so the proof cannot be from God.​

That God is Almighty is no reason to believe every tale of the miraculous - to adopt belief in Divine Omnipotence as a principle by itself for interpreting what one hears is not enough; because it allows anything under the sun to be believed, purely on the plea that “God can do anything”: as though He were a Heavenly slot machine, & not the God Whose works are righteous. Genuine miracles of God are not mere wonders, but serve an ethical purpose. To forget this, is to open the way to theological nonsense - & to every superstition imaginable, as well as heresy & schism. Those who run after apparitions, miracles, & other things out of the ordinary are in danger of being deceived by the devil.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

…Come to think of it, there is also that bit about a wicked and sinful generation seeketh after a sign.

This is the passage that is never quoted ​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

How do you know Ivan does not see the Blessed Mother? Do you know for sure Ms. Lily? I have seen Ivan twice at two different churches, and I believed him because I smelled roses very strong.
Two other people claimed they also smelled them at this church. When she appears to him, no matter what he is doing, he needs to get up and kneel. It was very sudden and everything pointed that she was in the room.
For you to even say that the millions of converts who go there and become Catholics is not a miracle in itself, then whatever. I didn’t believe it either until I went there in October. There really is something happening there.

There is - & it’s not from God.​

• A God-sent apparition would not encourage disobedience to the lawful pastors of the Church
• Even if it did, really devout Franciscans would not disobey their bishops - least of all because of an apparition
• This “Mary” cannot stop talking - it has volumes with its talkativeness. The real Mary holds her tongue - which is why the apparitions at Lourdes are credible: for the “beautiful lady” was not a chatterbox. But this “Mary”…!
• The reality of good fruits is no proof of the goodness of what occasions them. That is only one indication of genuiness, & it must be attended by others.
• The devil tolerates good fruits, for he is often able to use them as bait to draw those he deceives into evils which compensate him for his trouble.
• Wonders with transformed rosaries & dancing suns are mere wonders - they are no proof that an event is specifically Christian. Our Lord warned His Disciples against lying wonders, & He was tempted to prove His Messiahship by them. Faith & charity are contrary to damnation - mere wonders are no obstacle to it

 

[CathFaith1]

This is the passage that is never quoted ​

A lot of apparition talk this week.

I agree that ‘searching for’ apparitions may be a sign of weak faith. Yet on the rare occurance some that are deemed worthy of belief by the proper ecclesiastical authorities (especially multiple sources) - I’d say they are well worth our own investigations and thoughts.

I’ve found three to be quite inspiring, Lourdes, Fatima and Akita. Beyond that none have really gained my interest. Or moved me to change for the better.

As the Scriptural reference,

The Pharisees and Sadducees came and, to test him, asked him to show them a sign from heaven.

He said to them in reply, "(In the evening you say, ‘Tomorrow will be fair, for the sky is red’;
and, in the morning, ‘Today will be stormy, for the sky is red and threatening.’ You know how to judge the appearance of the sky, but you cannot judge the signs of the times.)

An evil and unfaithful generation seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Then he left them and went away.

It certainly gives the lesson to see Christ everyday.

Yet, maybe just maybe Jesus has offered miraculous evidence for the weak Doubting Thomas’ in the world to wake up and stop doubting.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

A lot of apparition talk this week.

I agree that ‘searching for’ apparitions may be a sign of weak faith. Yet on the rare occurance some that are deemed worthy of belief by the proper ecclesiastical authorities (especially multiple sources) - I’d say they are well worth our own investigations and thoughts.

I’ve found three to be quite inspiring, Lourdes, Fatima and Akita. Beyond that none have really gained my interest. Or moved me to change for the better.

As the Scriptural reference,

It certainly gives the lesson to see Christ everyday.

Yet, maybe just maybe Jesus has offered miraculous evidence for the weak Doubting Thomas’ in the world to wake up and stop doubting.

I think the operative word is “rare”: reports of these things are not rare; far from it. This is an indication - though by itself, it can be no more than that - that many or most are not what they are said to be.​

I’m surprised no-one has yet linked to the SpiritDaily site

 

[RevDrNorth]

We should not write off apparitions of Mary just based on the fact that there are spurious appearances. The church is very careful before a Bishop gives assent. That is why Bayside has not been accepted (for obvious reasons) and people are still mulling over the Yugoslavia apparition. This should give confidence.

Note also, that before Protestants laugh at these well attested to and documented phenomena, they must look within their own tradition to people like Martin Luther who claimed to be attacked by unseen spiritual forces, to Pentecostals who claim encounters with Satan (physically fighting with Satan) and who also claim to be receiving private revelations from God (word of Knowledge, prophecy and so on). This is quite normative in Pentecostal circles and among others (such as the very well educated Pat Robertson). Makes Marian apparitions look rather logical and conservative.

 

[Righteousone]

I am so surprised on this thread the skepticism and doubt of Our Lady appearing in Fatima. the constant words here of saying we are not bound to believe it really sickens me.
“The Most holy Virgin is very sad b/c no one has paid any attention to Her Message, neither the good nor the bad. The good continue on their way but without giving any importance to Her Message. The bad, not seeing the punishment of God actually falling upon them, continue their life of sin without ever caring about the message.
But believe me, God will chastise the world and this will be in a terrible manner. The punishment from heaven is imminent.
God always, before He is about to chastise the world, exhausts all other remedies”.------Sister Lucy as told to Father Fuentes, December 26, 1957.

 

[Righteousone]

We should not write off apparitions of Mary just based on the fact that there are spurious appearances. The church is very careful before a Bishop gives assent. That is why Bayside has not been accepted (for obvious reasons) and people are still mulling over the Yugoslavia apparition. This should give confidence.

Note also, that before Protestants laugh at these well attested to and documented phenomena, they must look within their own tradition to people like Martin Luther who claimed to be attacked by unseen spiritual forces, to Pentecostals who claim encounters with Satan (physically fighting with Satan) and who also claim to be receiving private revelations from God (word of Knowledge, prophecy and so on). This is quite normative in Pentecostal circles and among others (such as the very well educated Pat Robertson). Makes Marian apparitions look rather logical and conservative.

Thank you Rev…

 

[CathFaith1]

I think the operative word is “rare”: reports of these things are not rare; far from it. This is an indication - though by itself, it can be no more than that - that many or most are not what they are said to be.​

I’m surprised no-one has yet linked to the SpiritDaily site

Depends on one’s POV.

I’d say potentially authentic events are incredibly rare.

With ecclesiastical approval, it’s reasonable to gather a thorough and valid investigation was detailed. Along with some substance of an inexplicable event. And the more skeptical the study the better, I’d say.

As I noted three events caught my interest. Mainly do to the facts of the witnesses (seers). Two became nuns (one was already nun). From what is said about them they walked the walk. Gave up a potential book tour or some odd sort of fame for a life of prayer and were quite the simple servants.

What I found most useful was reading their lives (the symbolism in the events were clearly inspiring as well) – I can say it actually lead me to recognize what I wasn’t doing. I wasn’t walking the walk to any degree. Not after contemplating what these people lived.

So, I actually began to pray the Rosary (starting on 1st Saturdays of the month…(Then weekly or multiple times per week overtime.) Took time out on Fridays to sit w/ our Lord in Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament and quietly listening.

Frankly, I found I was doing things I didn’t necessarily want to. But still get up and do them anyway. Making some appts to occasionally sit w/ sick and dying; getting out there in the local parish contributing time and energy with food delivery and education; frequenting confession. Scripture studies. And deeply appreciating the Holy Eucharist. My wife even noted my disposition is far more peaceful than the earlier rocky years of our marriage. And lost a bit of selfishness. She’s had a bit of a healthy spiritual kick start herself.

As for the many ‘claims’ we may hear about, frankly, I view so many of them as a poison. They can distract from possibly doing something spiritually productive.

I do see them as a rarity but I found some can be very helpful.

 

[Kristine1957]

Hi Kristine, pray the Rosary. Visit your parish, during the week, light a candle and pray with her.

RebeccaJ
Thank you, I do pray the rosary but not consistent so I will start doing these things as you suggested. I have a heart that is full of love for Christ and I want so very much to feel like I have that relationship with his mother.

God bless

 

[Kristine1957]

Our Lady is appearing in Medjugorgie, Yugoslavia for 25 years. There have been millions of converts to the Catholic faith b/c of this.
Sixty-one year old Fr. Petar is the priest who will read and announce three of the ten secrets given by the Virgin Mary as warnings and admonitions for the world. The three secrets will be pre-released, one by one, from mirjana, the visionary who has seen the Virgin.
When? Do we know?
She will read them first to Fr. Petar and then he will read them to the world three days before they actually happen.
There will be short intervals between the first, second and third secrets.
The world is on the verge of receiving a warning which many believe is to be of great severity causing anguish or pain, perhaps like a mini judgement showing us the fullness of our sins and how we offended God, experienced interiorly and physically, burning us like a fire yet not consuming us or causing death.
But worse than death.
But through this, the consciousness of the world will be corrected and many believers and non-believers will come to love God more.
Secondly a great miraculous sign will be given directly from the hand of God for the whole world, and thirdly, for those who have not converted, a purification. We do not know the order in which each one will happen.
We know the state of the world’s morality, in just the last decades, has fallen completely into a biblical context such as in the past when man’s actions resulted in God’s actions manifesting in a complete correction in the conscious of man.
It is without doubt that we are about to be corrected.
When all past civilizations had arrived at the point we have already arrived at in our time, they were renewed through purification and what could not be purified was destroyed.
What has happened in the past will repeat itself in the future. The three parralels-----Secular history, biblical history, and natural law supports the “given” that history repeats itself. All three parellels blend into union on this point.

Please remmber I have said this. These are true statements from Mirjana herself.

 

[mathematician]

Note also, that before Protestants laugh at these well attested to and documented phenomena, they must look within their own tradition to people like Martin Luther who claimed to be attacked by unseen spiritual forces, to Pentecostals who claim encounters with Satan (physically fighting with Satan) and who also claim to be receiving private revelations from God (word of Knowledge, prophecy and so on). This is quite normative in Pentecostal circles and among others (such as the very well educated Pat Robertson). Makes Marian apparitions look rather logical and conservative.

Martin Luther’s remark seems fairly pedestrian. As for the others, I don’t much care for their brand of enthusiasm either. It just gives them an excuse to pride themselves on their “spirituality” when all that is really being witnessed is self indulgence.

 

[angelusm]

It seems that non-Catholics have the most “trouble” with Marian beliefs of all Catholic beliefs.

What do you think of the apparitions of Mary (those approved by the CC)?

I’m Catholic, and I don’t believe in them, but I’m wondering what you guys (non-Catholics) think.

Do you believe that Mary, the other Saints, or maybe angels visit people and can be seen?

Why you don’t believe in them? Do you think that pope is a liar?

 

[paarsurrey]

We should not write off apparitions of Mary just based on the fact that there are spurious appearances. The church is very careful before a Bishop gives assent. That is why Bayside has not been accepted (for obvious reasons) and people are still mulling over the Yugoslavia apparition. This should give confidence.

Note also, that before Protestants laugh at these well attested to and documented phenomena, they must look within their own tradition to people like Martin Luther who claimed to be attacked by unseen spiritual forces, to Pentecostals who claim encounters with Satan (physically fighting with Satan) and who also claim to be receiving private revelations from God (word of Knowledge, prophecy and so on). This is quite normative in Pentecostal circles and among others (such as the very well educated Pat Robertson). Makes Marian apparitions look rather logical and conservative.

HI

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim.
Would you kindly quote from **Martin Luther **,Pentecostals, Pat Robertson and others who would have seen Marian Apparitions or Jesus Apparitions?

Thanks

 

[Righteousone]

Kristine, the Blessed Mother told one of the visionaries, Mirjana, that in her lifetime, these things will happen. (She must be around 40-44 now.)
I can’t say myself that this is absolutely true, I just listen to the visionaries themselves when I was there in Medjugorgie.

 

[HollyDolly]

There are other apparitions of Our Lady,but many of them happend along time ago, in France,Beligum,etc. and are not as publicized as Lourdes and Fatima.The shrines are still there,and people still visit themto this day,but they are not that well known outside of their native lands. There are the old shrines of Monserrat,Rocamdour,and even one at Guadalupe in Spain
which is much older that the one in Mexico.

The Blessed Virgin tends to appear to those who generally are poor it seems,though she can appear to anyone of any social class.The Good lord and His mother can choose to whom they
want to appear.
And Yes,The Blessed Mother appeared in Paris,to St.Catherine Laboure,a Daughter of Charity of St.Vincent de Paul and gave to St.Catherine the Miraculous Medal.

You don’t have to believe in these appartions,it’s not a requirement of Catholics.