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Insight
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I tend to think there is something going on there too.
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peary
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**I tend to believe that something is happening there at Medjugorje too. Just what, I am not exactly sure. The same can be said of the Garabandal apparitions. **
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Righteousone
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Who knows?? Only God. Maybe it is a test of faith for us all.
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Brian_Reeves
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peary
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Originally Posted by **kalt: **
*It seems that non-Catholics have the most “trouble” with Marian beliefs of all Catholic beliefs.
What do you think of the apparitions of Mary (those approved by the CC)?
I’m Catholic, and I don’t believe in them, but I’m wondering what you guys (non-Catholics) think.
Do you believe that Mary, the other Saints, or maybe angels visit people and can be seen?*
Why aren’t you open at least to the possibility of Mary visiting the Church from time to time in the form of appearances to us with an important message(s) - those at least approved by the Church as authentic? What issue do you have? I realize that Faith is not dependent on these (and should not be) but it would be interesting to find out why do you reject these outright?
*It seems that non-Catholics have the most “trouble” with Marian beliefs of all Catholic beliefs.
What do you think of the apparitions of Mary (those approved by the CC)?
I’m Catholic, and I don’t believe in them, but I’m wondering what you guys (non-Catholics) think.
Do you believe that Mary, the other Saints, or maybe angels visit people and can be seen?*
Why aren’t you open at least to the possibility of Mary visiting the Church from time to time in the form of appearances to us with an important message(s) - those at least approved by the Church as authentic? What issue do you have? I realize that Faith is not dependent on these (and should not be) but it would be interesting to find out why do you reject these outright?
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elt1956
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That is happenining right now? Not that I don’t want it to happen, but please give evidence. Thanks.
Peace.
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Insight
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(Kalt - Do you believe that Mary, the other Saints, or maybe angels visit people and can be seen?)
Mystical theology, like fundamental theology, affirms only this: God can reveal Himself (Karl Rahner, S.J.). "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions, (Joel 2:28-32 NKJV).
Recall the Angel that appeared to the Shepherds. Also, Saul’s apparition before his transformation to Paul.
Mystical theology, like fundamental theology, affirms only this: God can reveal Himself (Karl Rahner, S.J.). "And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions, (Joel 2:28-32 NKJV).
Recall the Angel that appeared to the Shepherds. Also, Saul’s apparition before his transformation to Paul.
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Righteousone
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Just the other day the pope baptized a Muslim into the faith, an interview with a Jewish man that I saw, he told of numbers of Muslim converting to Catholicism. Do you realize many Muslim live in fear because they reject Islam? There are 100,000 Iraqi Catholics who have fled their country because of this. Some were brought up Christian while most were raised Muslim. Just the pope baptizing a Muslim into the catholic faith is good enough for me.That is happenining right now? Not that I don’t want it to happen, but please give evidence. Thanks.
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Eschato
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Brian_Reeves
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What would have happened if Jesus had chosen the scribes, pharisees, etc., of His time: He would have been cucified a great deal faster than He was !!! Our Lady is appearing to children for a similar reason, that their decisions are made with the heart rather than their head. A child generally speaks truthfully and has that intuitive reaasoning that gets to the bottom of things without all this “brainbox” activity. And why Our Lady, because She is the one who will be recognised and totally acceptable to children. It cannot be Jesus since His next return is the final one, as stated by scripture. God is never going to move us away from the “faith” mode since that is where we must be to discover His Love, and come into a right relationship with His Son. God’s Love must be based on total freedom, which is what God has given us, as can be seen by the rejection of all the miraculous signs that are happening around us at the moment. Urgens Signs, I believe from a loving God, since we are nearing the end and the return of His Son. Yes, we will not know the hour,etc., but there will be signs of it approaching, read Bible. So, in the end, the freedom and choice is yours, but please, please make it one based on PRAYER rather than the intelect, that is our only hope. Jesus has promised to lead us into the truth through that relationship. This is why Our Lady at Medjugorje is constantly appealing to us to “Pray, pray, pray”, nothing else is neaded, but it is very costly I warn you !!!
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Insight
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I posted this a few pages back on this topic
Rather than us meager humans dictating to Almighty God how to conduct His business, it may be more prudent to meditate on His Divine Wisdom (in observing how God actually does conduct His business). Rather than demanding the Creator of the Universe to limit His Divine communications to those we silly men foolishly consider wise, perhaps we should deduce why He typically reveals Himself to the poor and ignorant. “I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.” (Matt 11:25)
God did not send his Angels to the most wise and learned men to inform the world that the Messiah has been born, but to poor uneducated shepherds. Do men of good will suite God’s requirements better than learned men? Jesus did not select the Chief Priests, Scribes and Pharisees to be his Disciples, but poor ignorant fishermen. Was the first person to see Jesus resurrected a Magnificent Queen, or a humble reformed prostitute? Why does God do these things? Is He reading hearts?
Fatima falls in line with God’s previous Divine activities. Perhaps the revelations to poor little children in language and words beyond their limited wisdom helps to serve as proof? Maybe they are more innocent. Maybe wise men would have added their own analysis. Would people be more inclined to believe a wise and learned person? Jesus raised Lazarus who was dead for four days in front of the Chief Priest, Scribes and Pharisees. Did they believe? On the contrary, instead of believing, they began planning to kill him. God knows what He is doing.
Rather than us meager humans dictating to Almighty God how to conduct His business, it may be more prudent to meditate on His Divine Wisdom (in observing how God actually does conduct His business). Rather than demanding the Creator of the Universe to limit His Divine communications to those we silly men foolishly consider wise, perhaps we should deduce why He typically reveals Himself to the poor and ignorant. “I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.” (Matt 11:25)
God did not send his Angels to the most wise and learned men to inform the world that the Messiah has been born, but to poor uneducated shepherds. Do men of good will suite God’s requirements better than learned men? Jesus did not select the Chief Priests, Scribes and Pharisees to be his Disciples, but poor ignorant fishermen. Was the first person to see Jesus resurrected a Magnificent Queen, or a humble reformed prostitute? Why does God do these things? Is He reading hearts?
Fatima falls in line with God’s previous Divine activities. Perhaps the revelations to poor little children in language and words beyond their limited wisdom helps to serve as proof? Maybe they are more innocent. Maybe wise men would have added their own analysis. Would people be more inclined to believe a wise and learned person? Jesus raised Lazarus who was dead for four days in front of the Chief Priest, Scribes and Pharisees. Did they believe? On the contrary, instead of believing, they began planning to kill him. God knows what He is doing.
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Eschato
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Good insight. Pun intended.
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elt1956
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Yes, I understand it is VERY risky to oppose Islam in Muslim countries. Further, although we do have a big split between Caholicism and Protestanism, I am glad I live in the USA where we have freedom of religion. Imagine what our country would be like if either Catholicism or a branch of Protestantism had a final say in which religion was right and wrong. Remember what happened in the Church during the Inquisition in Europe and with the Puritans, I think Cotton Mather? in the early days of our nation. Both claiming to have a direct line from God. What a mess.Just the other day the pope baptized a Muslim into the faith, an interview with a Jewish man that I saw, he told of numbers of Muslim converting to Catholicism. Do you realize many Muslim live in fear because they reject Islam? There are 100,000 Iraqi Catholics who have fled their country because of this. Some were brought up Christian while most were raised Muslim. Just the pope baptizing a Muslim into the catholic faith is good enough for me.
Peace.
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1234
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Well, Jesus and various saints apparently raised people from the dead, and cured a lot of diseases. That’s what ‘miracles’ allege. A miraculous overriding of existing medicine and science.Then let’s hope Science comes up with a pill enabling amputees to grow new arms and new legs. But then, would that be the jurisdictioin of Science or God?Peace.
But no saint or prayer has been able to grow back an amputated limb. Science doesn’t allege to be able to do so, tho’ the next century may hold some surprises.
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1234
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The odd thing about the ‘miracle of the sun’ is not that it was seen 40 miles away, but that it wasn’t seen all over Europe where the sun was shining. The ‘miracle’ occurred at mid-day, by which I infer noon-2 PM or so. The sun, when it is out, is visible at mid-day in October all over Europe. In the same time zone it will be in the same relation to the zenith, higher to the south (more vertical) and lower to the north. It will be closer or farther from the horizon in adjacent time zones, but still visible. It should therefore have been seen in the rest of Portugal, Spain, France, the UK, Italy, Germany, North Africa, everywhere that the sun would normally be out and visible. For example, there will be a total eclipse of the sun this summer, seen as total in Mongolia and Svalbard, north of Norway. It won’t be total in the rest of Europe, but it will be visible, and hundreds of millions of people will see it.
Why didn’t millions of people all over Europe see the ‘miracle of the sun’? Were there reports on the ‘miracle’ from the rest of Europe. Surely, the observatories in the rest of Europe would have seen and commented on it.
However, if it were a local meteorological phenomenon such as a sundog, then people 40 miles away would have seen it, but not the rest of Europe.
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elt1956
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Yes, and the folks living one hundred years ago would be surprised by what is accomplished today.
Peace.
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Eschato
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On the contrary, I’ve read many accounts of people regenerating body parts, gaining back their sight, and other such things. If you actually looked into these sights at all, you would have heard of such things too. You allege that miracles don’t occur, but your only evidence comes from closing your ears to acts.
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Eschato
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If it were, then you would be saying that it was just a normal astronomical occurrence. What made it special was that you had to be in Portugal to see it. The farthest report of the event was by fishermen several miles away. They pretty much discount the theory of mass hallucination.
That’s the way that God chose to reveal it. Again, not to scientists, or lawyers, but the whomever was present. The miracle wasn’t predicted to be seen by all of Europe. If 70,000 people all reported seeing it and there is not one report by someone present that it did not happen and the 70,000 witnesses included people from all walks of life (your precious educated as well as educated, and people that showed up with the sole intention of mocking believers), I don’t understand how you believe that you have a leg to stand on to disprove it. There are NOT ANY witnesses that reported contrary to what happened.
I don’t know what a sundog is… I gues that it is where the sun cuts through the clouds, scares the living **** out of some people, touches and immediatley dries the ground, and returns to it’s original place. I’ll look up sundog later, but I don’t think that is what it is.
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1234
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Reading about something doesn’t make it so.
You, or someone, will have to prove these allegations of miracles. Sight loss can be purely psychological, as the loss of sight among Cambodians having to watch the slaughter of their families has testified. Women who were forced to watch these atrocities sometimes became ‘blind’ even though their eyes registered that they still possessed sight.
Regarding the regeneration of body parts, there would have to be objective documentation, which would start with photos before and after, with proper identification of the subjects, and include CT scans, if the body parts were interior.
Otherwise it’s myth and rumor, not miracle.
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LilyM
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Ridiculous. The evidence presented about Fatima would probabaly be enough to convince a lot of judicial courts (at least on a civil balance-of-probabilities basis if not a criminal beyond-reasonable-doubt basis). Why should that not be good enough for you? At least good enough for you to accept that it amounts to serious if not airtight evidence and not mere humbug, myth or rumour?
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