Apparitions of Mary

[Tsuwano]

Yes, and I think it happens a lot more often than gets reported. But one thing I’m really curious about, why does Mary only appear to Catholics?

How do you know that Mary has only appeared to Catholics? Simply because the Catholic Church has recognized several apparitions of Mary as worthy of belief by Catholics, is no proof that Mary hasn’t appeared to others who may not be Catholic. After all, Mary is a model of faith for all us, whether we are Catholic or not. I have known Buddhists who have been inspired by Our Lady to lead better lives and become better people. Visions of Mary may be much more common than we think.

 

[Lilyflower]

How do you know that Mary has only appeared to Catholics? Simply because the Catholic Church has recognized several apparitions of Mary as worthy of belief by Catholics, is no proof that Mary hasn’t appeared to others who may not be Catholic. After all, Mary is a model of faith for all us, whether we are Catholic or not. I have known Buddhists who have been inspired by Our Lady to lead better lives and become better people. Visions of Mary may be much more common than we think.

Amen

 

[SongofShepherds]

On the Zeitoun, Egypt apparition, approved by the Coptic Catholic Church (Copts must be short for Coptic as used here).

“Tens of thousands of people,** Muslims, Christians from all denominations, Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant, and even skeptics, f**rom different walks of life and nationalities, flocked nightly to get a glimpse of the apparition of the Virgin Mary…Likewise Cardinal Stephanos I, the Patriarch of the Coptic Catholic Church stated that the apparitions of our Lady at Zeitoun were beyond any doubt, and Rev. Dr. Ibrahim Said, head of the Protestant Evangelical Ministries in Egypt affirmed the truth of the Virgin Mary apparitions at Zeitoun.”

• copts.com/english1/index.php/2008/03/15/a-celestial-encounter/

An interesting detail of the story because I have even heard this discussed but with a lack of information:

“…the mother of light, the blessed Virgin Mary appearing at her church, however others and the police suspected the local Copts to have come up with a bright electrical light gimmick to trick the Muslim population in believing into a Christian miracle. They resorted first to smashing streetlights but the vision became even clearer, ultimately they cut off the electrical supply for the area to deny the Copts their supposed gimmick. Lo and behold the onlookers, Muslims and Copts alike, could not help but witness a vivid and clear heavenly apparition of the Virgin Mary gesturing at the crowds.”

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I found this story readily on the internet only searching for “protestant” and “apparition” so certainly, there must be other cases if one looks longer.

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How do you know that Mary has only appeared to Catholics? Simply because the Catholic Church has recognized several apparitions of Mary as worthy of belief by Catholics, is no proof that Mary hasn’t appeared to others who may not be Catholic. After all, Mary is a model of faith for all us, whether we are Catholic or not. I have known Buddhists who have been inspired by Our Lady to lead better lives and become better people. Visions of Mary may be much more common than we think.

luisprada.com/Protected/IMAGES/kwanyin4.jpg

 

[Lilyflower]

The gospel is all about faith. Why would an apparition occur for somebody who wouldn’t have enough faith to believe it?

What’s next? You’ll probably ask for Jesus to appear to non-Christians so that they may believe too.

I know of an Anglican Minister who became one out of protestation of Christendom. He was committed to converting Christians to atheism. As a PhD he was angered at the convictions of Christians, joined a local Anglican Church then set about converting from within. He boasted he could dismantle any belief system of any Christian by sheer logic.

One day he was going to his local bank. He parked his car on one side of a bridge as the bank was on the other side and there was no parking available. As he walked across the bridge, he asked himself aloud the question: 'if there really is a God and there really is a Christ then come to me and convert me so that I may believe this simple faith of these simple people.

He never got to cross the bridge. I heard the story from the local Anglican Minister who said this normally stable calm man had knocked on his rectory door in a state of alarm, hyseria and unable to speak for exitement. The Rector took him in to his study and asked him to calm down and tell him what was bothering him. He told him that he had had a personal encounter with the Risen Christ and that he now wanted to be baptised.

The Minister would have been skeptical were it not for the sheer manifestation of his visitor who had quite simply been bowled over by his encounter.

Today that man is a very powerful Minister in the Church. So why not Christ revealing Himself so that others may believe.

 

[SongofShepherds]

I know of an Anglican Minister who became one out of protestation of Christendom. He was committed to converting Christians to atheism. As a PhD he was angered at the convictions of Christians, joined a local Anglican Church then set about converting from within. He boasted he could dismantle any belief system of any Christian by sheer logic.

One day he was going to his local bank. He parked his car on one side of a bridge as the bank was on the other side and there was no parking available. As he walked across the bridge, he asked himself aloud the question: 'if there really is a God and there really is a Christ then come to me and convert me so that I may believe this simple faith of these simple people.

He never got to cross the bridge. I heard the story from the local Anglican Minister who said this normally stable calm man had knocked on his rectory door in a state of alarm, hyseria and unable to speak for exitement. The Rector took him in to his study and asked him to calm down and tell him what was bothering him. He told him that he had had a personal encounter with the Risen Christ and that he now wanted to be baptised.

The Minister would have been skeptical were it not for the sheer manifestation of his visitor who had quite simply been bowled over by his encounter.

Today that man is a very powerful Minister in the Church. So why not Christ revealing Himself so that others may believe.

A fine story, thank you for sharing this with us.

It is interesting, that the famous Brown Scapular related to St. Simon Stock occurred in England.

I have to read more on this, Our Lady of Mount Carmel, I guess, has her origins in the Holy Land…but I would believe She actually appeared in England.

This link relates the story: theotokos.org.uk/pages/fatima/scapular.html

And I’m the one who once said Mount Carmel was maybe in Spain! :tsktsk:

 

[Insight]

As for the dancing sun, etc. - is it quite certain that 70K is the correct (or nearly correct) figure ? What in fact did happen ? The occurrences deserve to be subjected to the same rigorous scrutiny as any other event said to have been witnessed by many - that it is religious, does not alter this; though such an enquiry will have problems of its own, arising from the nature of its subject-matter.

Hi Gottle of Geer,

 It might be better to try understanding why God works the way He does.  Try to get the book: “Fatima, Meet the Witnesses” by John Haffert.  He personally interviewed dozens of the witnesses, even plotting their locations to the cove.

God Bless.

 

[flameburns623]

It seems that non-Catholics have the most “trouble” with Marian beliefs of all Catholic beliefs.

What do you think of the apparitions of Mary (those approved by the CC)?

I’m Catholic, and I don’t believe in them, but I’m wondering what you guys (non-Catholics) think.

Do you believe that Mary, the other Saints, or maybe angels visit people and can be seen?

I don’t wish to be cruel towards what others hold as deeply cherished devotions. But I do find an arguments from purported visions to be inherently flawed.

Whitley Strieber has had ‘communion’ with aliens. Must I become a UFOologist?

Shirley MacLaine has had wonderful spiritual expeiences with crystals. Must I pray to rocks?

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

I don’t wish to be cruel towards what others hold as deeply cherished devotions. But I do find an arguments from purported visions to be inherently flawed.

Whitley Strieber has had ‘communion’ with aliens. Must I become a UFOologist?

Shirley MacLaine has had wonderful spiritual expeiences with crystals. Must I pray to rocks?

I thought the account by the three children of Fatima was quite credible. I don’t know why you would consider it to be inherently flawed. I especially liked the way they predicted the miracle for October 13th 1917. I thought the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul II on the anniversary of the first Fatima apparitation - May 13th 1981 - was quite fascinating in timing, considering that the attempted assassination is believed to be one of the three secrets of Fatima that was later revealed.

I have no idea as to the credibility of the accounts Whitley Strieber and Shirley MacLaine. They’ve never interested me - not even now.

 

[SongofShepherds]

First off, hats off to Charlie Zeitar, for immediately responding valiantly to these statements. He is to be commended. I know I grasp for information sometimes.

Hey, where has Whitley Strieber and Shirley McClaine received Vatican Approval. The statements below are insulting enough without the arrogant, “I don’t mean to be cruel.”

What is this GW Russel, Irish Nationalist, listed in the "Occult and Parapsychological Encyclopedia answers.com/topic/george-william-russell , and Yes, we should have open minds, I know some of my thoughts may not be in line with official doctrine at times, if it be known but there is some freedom of discussion within the Church. Thomas Merton seemed to have something about how Buddhist Monks prayed. There is openness in the Church.

Debate can be done respectfully, this appears to come out of left field and I’m sure there are many Fatima/Mary Apparition threads to read on already.

I don’t wish to be cruel towards what others hold as deeply cherished devotions. But I do find an arguments from purported visions to be inherently flawed.

Whitley Strieber has had ‘communion’ with aliens. Must I become a UFOologist?

Shirley MacLaine has had wonderful spiritual expeiences with crystals. Must I pray to rocks?

 

[peary]

I don’t wish to be cruel towards what others hold as deeply cherished devotions. But I do find an arguments from purported visions to be inherently flawed.

Whitley Strieber has had ‘communion’ with aliens. Must I become a UFOologist?

Shirley MacLaine has had wonderful spiritual expeiences with crystals. Must I pray to rocks?

Streiber’s experiences are definitely not with ‘aliens’; they are without doubt encounters with demons which, unfortunately, he has and continues to encourage.

Authentic Marian apparitions lead souls to Christ. Period.

Many Protestants have problems with Catholic beliefs on Mary psychologically because of their own sexual hangups which are determined by society at large. Not only must they insist on making her a sinner, they also insist that she must not be a virgin, and that she had sexual encounters producing other children. Anti-Marian feelings are gauged by the sexual mores of the era one resides in. No? think about it.

 

[Lilyflower]

Originally Posted by kalt
It seems that non-Catholics have the most “trouble” with Marian beliefs of all Catholic beliefs.

What do you think of the apparitions of Mary (those approved by the CC)?

I’m Catholic, and I don’t believe in them, but I’m wondering what you guys (non-Catholics) think.

Do you believe that Mary, the other Saints, or maybe angels visit people and can be seen?

I agree.

I don’t believe in oxygen either. I have never seen it, never tasted it, smelt it or been aware of its presence. Therfore as far as I am concerned, it does not exist. It is the fanciful imaginings of a creative psych

 

[Lilyflower]

. Not only must they insist on making her a sinner, they also insist that she must not be a virgin, and that she had sexual encounters producing other children. Anti-Marian feelings are gauged by the sexual mores of the era one resides in. No? think about it.

AMEN

So too the book ‘the Da Vinci Hoax’, it too gets its power not from the ill-informed and futile imaginings of its author but from the bizzare sexualties of its readership.

The book as far as I am concerned, like criticisms of the virginity of the BVM and criticisms of apparitions, speak more about the readership than it does about the ill informed facts.

 

[flameburns623]

I thought the account by the three children of Fatima was quite credible. I don’t know why you would consider it to be inherently flawed. I especially liked the way they predicted the miracle for October 13th 1917. I thought the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul II on the anniversary of the first Fatima apparition - May 13th 1981 - was quite fascinating in timing, considering that the attempted assassination is believed to be one of the three secrets of Fatima that was later revealed.

I have no idea as to the credibility of the accounts Whitley Strieber and Shirley MacLaine. They’ve never interested me - not even now.

As I say, it was not my intent to mock the Marian apparitions, only to underscore the fact that various people in various religions and of no religion at all profess belief in mysterious happenings of some sort of supernatural nature. One can withdraw within the shell of one’s personal belief-structure and suggest YOUR mysterious happenings are Godly whilst others are otherwise:

peary:

. . . .Streiber’s experiences are definitely not with ‘aliens’; they are without doubt encounters with demons which, unfortunately, he has and continues to encourage . . .

Or one could hide behind a radical and usually sterile and deadening skepticism about any and all claims of supernatural happenings.
SongofShephards:

Hey, where has Whitley Strieber and Shirley Maclaine received Vatican Approval.

I am aware that for Catholics the Marian apparitions are deemed worthy or unworthy of belief. "Worthy of faith’: but not obligatory of faith.

Undoubtedly faith-affirming for those who come to them already believing strongly in the Catholic Marian dogmas.

But if one is not already convinced of these dogmas, already part of that paradigm–such claims of apparitions are no more moving that the claims of Joseph Smith, Ellen White, or Mary Baker Eddy to supernatural revelation.

peary:

Many Protestants have problems with Catholic beliefs on Mary psychologically because of their own sexual hangups which are determined by society at large. Not only must they insist on making her a sinner, they also insist that she must not be a virgin, and that she had sexual encounters producing other children. Anti-Marian feelings are gauged by the sexual mores of the era one resides in.

And my disinclination to pray to rocks . . . .this also is a sexual hangup? Arguments of this sort are dastardly.

Lilyflower:

I don’t believe in oxygen either. I have never seen it, never tasted it, smelt it or been aware of its presence. Therefore as far as I am concerned, it does not exist. It is the fanciful imaginings of a creative psych

You were thinking phlogiston, perhaps?

 

[peary]

Originally Posted by **peary **
*Many Protestants have problems with Catholic beliefs on Mary psychologically because of their own sexual hangups which are determined by society at large. Not only must they insist on making her a sinner, they also insist that she must not be a virgin, and that she had sexual encounters producing other children. Anti-Marian feelings are gauged by the sexual mores of the era one resides in. *

And my disinclination to pray to rocks . . . .this also is a sexual hangup? Arguments of this sort are dastardly.

**To compare praying to rocks to any saint in the Communion of Saints, as far as Catholic Christians are concerned, is blasphemous and totally without merit. One can gauge anti-Marian propaganda to the social disposition around sex in any era. **

 

[sosayi1960]

Originally Posted by **peary **
*Many Protestants have problems with Catholic beliefs on Mary psychologically because of their own sexual hangups which are determined by society at large. Not only must they insist on making her a sinner, they also insist that she must not be a virgin, and that she had sexual encounters producing other children. Anti-Marian feelings are gauged by the sexual mores of the era one resides in. *

And my disinclination to pray to rocks . . . .this also is a sexual hangup? Arguments of this sort are dastardly.

**To compare praying to rocks to any saint in the Communion of Saints, as far as Catholic Christians are concerned, is blasphemous and totally without merit. One can gauge anti-Marian propaganda to the social disposition around sex in any era. **

I don’t get it how can anyone Blaspheme against the Communion of Saints? The saints are not God, nor is Mary. All of them are creatures. God is God. Jesus is the Son of God. Mary is still a human. She was and is the perfect Christian. She is not a Goddess. We honor her, we honor Joseph and the other Saints. We worship God and God alone

 

[peary]

I don’t get it how can anyone Blaspheme against the Communion of Saints? The saints are not God, nor is Mary. All of them are creatures. God is God. Jesus is the Son of God. Mary is still a human. She was and is the perfect Christian. She is not a Goddess. We honor her, we honor Joseph and the other Saints. We worship God and God alone

Again, to compare praying to the Communion of Saints or a particular saint to praying to rocks is a blasphemous statement, since rocks are neither creatures nor saints rocks.

Blasphemy is an act or utterance of disrespect. When people blaspheme the mother of Jesus by calling her names, by gross disrespect, or having this applied to any saint of God, this is called blasphemy. Some people will disagree with your permissive view of what constitutes blasphemy.

 

[flameburns623]

Again, to compare praying to the Communion of Saints or a particular saint to praying to rocks is a blasphemous statement, since rocks are neither creatures nor saints rocks.

Blasphemy is an act or utterance of disrespect. When people blaspheme the mother of Jesus by calling her names, by gross disrespect, or having this applied to any saint of God, this is called blasphemy. Some people will disagree with your permissive view of what constitutes blasphemy.

Actually, I suggested that believing in apparitions of Mary is somewhat akin to believing that one has received remarkable supernatural benefits from crystals. Which latter belief I found ludicrous and likened to praying to rocks.

I have made no comments in this thread about the communion of Saints nor to the intercession of Mary. I have simply pointed out that appealing to alleged apparitions of Mary may be faith-affirming for someone who already believes in Marian dogmas, but it is rarely if ever of much interest if one does not already believe such dogmas.

The only beliefs which I have actually made light of in this thread have been the beliefs of a few New Agers. My use of provocative humor was twice tempered with the explicit affirmation that I do NOT want to be hurtful to those who do believe strongly in these apparitions. I remind you again however that even Roman Catholics are not required to believe in Marian apparitions, even if such apparitions have been investigated by the Church and found ‘worthy of faith’.

I have attempted to disagree courteously, even if with a touch of humor. Meanwhile you have suggested that my principled and reasoned objections to Marian dogma may be rooted in pyschosexual problems. That’s not cricket. Not at all.

 

[peary]

Actually, I suggested that believing in apparitions of Mary is somewhat akin to believing that one has received remarkable supernatural benefits from crystals. Which latter belief I found ludicrous and likened to praying to rocks.

# 380 - Must I pray to rocks?

I have made no comments in this thread about the communion of Saints nor to the intercession of Mary. I have simply pointed out that appealing to alleged apparitions of Mary may be faith-affirming for someone who already believes in Marian dogmas, but it is rarely if ever of much interest if one does not already believe such dogmas.

True. Authentic appearances of the BVM are usually for faithful Catholic Christians and the Church.

The only beliefs which I have actually made light of in this thread have been the beliefs of a few New Agers. My use of provocative humor was twice tempered with the explicit affirmation that I do NOT want to be hurtful to those who do believe strongly in these apparitions. I remind you again however that even Roman Catholics are not required to believe in Marian apparitions, even if such apparitions have been investigated by the Church and found ‘worthy of faith’.

True. However, as a Daughter of Israel, and in some ways of the line of prophets, these appearances of Mary the mother of Jesus need to be addressed in some way, whether or not they are not required of belief.

I have attempted to disagree courteously, even if with a touch of humor. Meanwhile you have suggested that my principled and reasoned objections to Marian dogma may be rooted in pyschosexual problems. That’s not cricket. Not at all.

No, I didn’t. Please re-read my post. It was not directed to you.

 

[lorilee93]

I am not Catholic. I am reading the book Lourdes: The original File By a Skeptic Turned Believer. I am not sure after reading this book that any one could not believe this poor Bernadette to be false. She is amazing. Read the book if you get a chance by J.B Estrade.
I am a true believer!
Lori

 

[Lilyflower]

I am not Catholic. I am reading the book Lourdes: The original File By a Skeptic Turned Believer. I am not sure after reading this book that any one could not believe this poor Bernadette to be false. She is amazing. Read the book if you get a chance by J.B Estrade.
I am a true believer!
Lori

As St Paul points out: 'God choses what is foolish by human reckoning to counfound the wise 1Corinthians 1:28

Blessings and peace