Apparitions of Mary

[MissSherri]

I have just returned from Medjurgorje. I am a new Catholic recently Confirmed at Easter Vigil. My best friend, John, has gone there twice and had magnificent experiences.

Mine were not.

The piety, the zealousness and the obsession overwhelmed me.

I am having trouble getting back into my concentration of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

The obsession with the Virgin Mary was totally over the top. I can’t even begin to describe it. The confessions there were not what I am used to (little as they may well be - remember I am new). I was actually denied absolution because my sin was one that may be committed again and again. Instead of being absolved, I was told to go home and make sure it doesn’t happen again - but the priest assured me that it would. Instead of giving me God’s grace to keep it from happening.

I wouldn’t go back. But I love God.

 

[SIA]

I have just returned from Medjurgorje. I am a new Catholic recently Confirmed at Easter Vigil. My best friend, John, has gone there twice and had magnificent experiences.

Mine were not.

The piety, the zealousness and the obsession overwhelmed me.

I am having trouble getting back into my concentration of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

The obsession with the Virgin Mary was totally over the top. I can’t even begin to describe it. The confessions there were not what I am used to (little as they may well be - remember I am new). I was actually denied absolution because my sin was one that may be committed again and again. Instead of being absolved, I was told to go home and make sure it doesn’t happen again - but the priest assured me that it would. Instead of giving me God’s grace to keep it from happening.

I wouldn’t go back. But I love God.

This is totally absurd and precisely the reason I left the RCC. One MUST remember that if an apparition occurs, it certainly may not be of God. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life. He doesn’t share that with anyone. Mary, as special as she was is in no way a redemptrix with Christ. In no way! Jesus reserves that right alone. In these apparitions, Mary asks these folks to do things that are counter to Scripture. That is enough evidence for many that these appearances are not Godly but of the evil one himself.

 

[SORROWS]

This is totally absurd and precisely the reason I left the RCC. One MUST remember that if an apparition occurs, it certainly may not be of God. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life. He doesn’t share that with anyone. Mary, as special as she was is in no way a redemptrix with Christ. In no way! Jesus reserves that right alone. In these apparitions, Mary asks these folks to do things that are counter to Scripture. That is enough evidence for many that these appearances are not Godly but of the evil one himself.

Are you serious? I know you have left the Church (you let us know over and over and over again…this was an apparition of the Blessed Mother. People come to Medjugorie knowing this in advance. Our Lord Jesus sends His Mother to help bring the people and become spiritual and renewal in their faith.

Once again you mention scripture. As a former Catholic you know scripture came about 300 years after Christs death so tradition was the way the Religion was understood.

Just curious if you think the approved Catholic Marian Apparitions are of the evil one? Since when does the evil one promote prayer, love and coming together in the name of Jesus Christ. This is the last thing the devil wants.

If I go to a Marian Apparition, I can expect that she is the one with the message and it is to follow her Son Jesus Christ.

 

[LilyM]

Are you serious? I know you have left the Church (you let us know over and over and over again…this was an apparition of the Blessed Mother. People come to Medjugorie knowing this in advance. Our Lord Jesus sends His Mother to help bring the people and become spiritual and renewal in their faith.

Once again you mention scripture. As a former Catholic you know scripture came about 300 years after Christs death so tradition was the way the Religion was understood.

Just curious if you think the approved Catholic Marian Apparitions are of the evil one? Since when does the evil one promote prayer, love and coming together in the name of Jesus Christ. This is the last thing the devil wants.

If I go to a Marian Apparition, I can expect that she is the one with the message and it is to follow her Son Jesus Christ.

Medjugorje has not been approved and in fact has been disapproved on quite a few occasions. Unless it is approved it is not appropriate to say that it is an apparition of Mary.

 

[1234]

For what purpose?

Do you think that Mary’s secondary role was to produce an international relief organization for the reduction of handicap?

Why didn’t Mary help the alcohol industry by making drinks more alcoholic? Why didn’t she help the Crusaders discover machine-guns?

So according to your view, Mary could have dedicated the rest of her life helping the limbless to grow back arms and legs!

Very benevolent but I think proclamation of the Gospel was of greater importance.

I feel this argument has gone from the bizarre to the ridiculous. Mary only ever points the way to her Son. You simply do not understand the nature of humility and submission to the Divine purpose, much less so the role in history of His Mother.

Blessings and peace.

Great Things–unspecified, of course–were promised at Fatima.the promise of miracles, from Jesus onward, consists of someone or something performing acts which cannot be explained by science–not hysterical ‘cures’, not visions, but something which medicine and science cannot duplicate at all. These are promised to enhance belief. If there is no miracle, then why are they promised, by Jesus or Mary or anyone else? Then, when they don’t appear, people are reminded that ‘true faith’ doesn’t require miracles! So–why bring them up in the first place?

I corrected your misspellings again.

 

[peary]

This is totally absurd and precisely the reason I left the RCC. One MUST remember that if an apparition occurs, it certainly may not be of God. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life. He doesn’t share that with anyone. Mary, as special as she was is in no way a redemptrix with Christ. In no way! Jesus reserves that right alone. In these apparitions, Mary asks these folks to do things that are counter to Scripture. That is enough evidence for many that these appearances are not Godly but of the evil one himself.

**The “co-” prefix in co-Redemptrix refers to Mary’s cooperation with us; it does not mean that Mary is co-Redeemer, not even with and under Christ. (The “co-” prefix should not be capitalized, since it refers to our mere human efforts towards our salvation; the “R” in co-Redemptrix should be capitalized since it refers to Divine efforts towards our salvation.)

Mary is not a co-Redeemer and is not able to save anyone, not even with and under Christ. Christ alone redeems; Mary merely immerses herself in all that Christ does toward our redemption. Her role is not co-redemptive.

Mary is Mediatrix of Grace, but not of all graces. She is not Mediatrix of the graces that flows from Christ’s Divine nature to His human nature; there is no mediation within the hypostatic union of the Divine and human natures of Christ. She is not the Mediatrix of the graces that she herself receives from Christ; in that case, she is the recipient, not the Mediatrix. In all other cases, Mary is the Mediatrix of Grace.

Mary is also Mediatrix of Divine Providence and of mercy and of all that God does within Creation, except with respect to Christ and herself.

Mary is Advocatrix. The term “Advocate,” when applied to the Virgin Mary, is theologically deficient because it lacks the feminine form, which would distinguish Mary’s different and subordinate role from Christ’s role as Advocate. Use of the Latin form of the word allows a clear theological definition to be attached to the term, unfettered by the various connotations which the word “advocate” has when translated into various languages.

The expression “Advocate of the People of God” can only be used to refer to Jesus Christ, or the Holy Spirit. The Virgin Mary has no role of advocacy herself; instead, her role as Advocatrix is to immerse herself in Christ’s role as our Advocate. Mary is not “Advocate of the People of God,” but rather she is a humble assistant to Christ, the Advocate of the People of God.

Mary does not stand before God as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix. In truth, only Christ stands before God to redeem, mediate, and advocate. The Virgin Mary humbly kneels before Christ, in worship of Him, as she assists Christ fully in His work of redemption, mediation, advocacy.

Mary’s role as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix is not properly described as a role “with and under” Christ. The term “with and under” does indicate that her role is subordinate, but it also improperly describes that role as if it were a separate role. In truth, Mary completely immerses herself in all that Christ does for our salvation. She has no role of redemption, mediation, or advocacy of her own; all her acts toward our salvation occur in Christ, not “with and under” Christ.**

You left Christ’s Church because of some warped perception of yours? How sad.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… saw the dimmed whirling sun, which is what you see if you’re so foolish to stare at the sun.

What about the muddy grounds that became suddenly dry? Or is that lie too?

… If Jesus could raise from the dead, he could grow an arm or leg back. So why didn’t Mary do this?

And would you have like some fries with that?

 

[1234]

What about the muddy grounds that became suddenly dry? Or is that lie too?

And would you have like some fries with that?

The reason that using a re-growing of a limb is used so often as the criterion of a miracle is that, as now, there is no medical explanation or way this could occur from a medical or scientific point of view.

All other ‘cures’ and ‘miracles’ have a ready explanation. Many, most diseases wax and wane, even cancer. That’s why scientific double-blind studies are so important, and have debunked many so-called ‘cures’.

Anyone who sets himself or anyone else up for some sort of miracle medical cure at a shrine runs the risk of being gravely disappointed.

It’s interesting that miracles tend to fade in time. How many are cured at Walsingham now? La Salette? Even at Lourdes? People still throwing away their crutches at the same rate? I doubt it.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

The reason that using a re-growing of a limb is used so often as the criterion of a miracle is that, as now, there is no medical explanation or way this could occur from a medical or scientific point of view.

All other ‘cures’ and ‘miracles’ have a ready explanation. Many, most diseases wax and wane, even cancer. That’s why scientific double-blind studies are so important, and have debunked many so-called ‘cures’.

Anyone who sets himself or anyone else up for some sort of miracle medical cure at a shrine runs the risk of being gravely disappointed.

It’s interesting that miracles tend to fade in time. How many are cured at Walsingham now? La Salette? Even at Lourdes? People still throwing away their crutches at the same rate? I doubt it.

What difference would it make? Don’t you know that the only people who demand a miracle are the “evil and godless” (see Mt 12:39)?

It’s quite offensive that you have ignored the facts of Fatima, or spun them around to demand something that the “evil and godless” would demand. There were plenty of signs for you already.

• The three children predicted the miracle on Oct 13th 1917
• The rain suddenly stopped and the muddy grounds became dry
• 70,000 people witnessed something phenomenal up above in the atmosphere that day. They say the “sun danced”.
• It was reported in local newspapers, “O Seculo” and “O Dia”, without objection from other media.

Any yet you want more signs. You want missing limbs to grow back. Where in scripture does God say “I will show you my sign by growing back missing limbs”? Nowhere! So, even if a missing limb did grow back, you’d probably still won’t believe. As Jesus would say, how “evil and godless” we are.

 

[Lilyflower]

Mysticism is no argument. You can’t persuade anyone by alleging that something is true because YOU feel it. Why don’t you take the Buddha seriously–I do and hundreds of millions of others do also. Why not Krishna? Lots of mystics directly experience many gods bot don’t convert anyone beyond their own believers. Why should you with your experience of Jesus?

If you don’t know any Catholics who practice birth control, you a) aren’t discussing their sexual practices with them or b) don’t know many Catholics. .

I know of arguably more Catholics than a lot of folk know of any denom or none. Surprisingly we DO discuss sexual matters seeings they are fundamental to human experience and expression of love.

Most rational people, with brains, like to have evidence before being asked to believe something.

In most areas of life that may be true but a [wo]man of Spirit you perceive by the Spirit. That is a far greater credential since it cannot lie or cheat or be false. I take it therefore that you have never met a spiritual person. or know how to discern such a person?

You look at a doctor’s credentials and ask around for the testimony of others check online, before you let that person touch you.

No I do not. If a GP is registered by the NHS then I assume they have the necessary requirements to practice. My method has not so far let me down. In fact I seem to have amazing luck in that respect. I get ‘just the right person at exactly the right time!’

Ditto for car performance, reliability of any kind.

Ah at last we have some common ground Most definitly and even then I do not trust anyone or at least remain healthily cynical!

When you come to Christianity you find documents written in GREEK about a JEW who spoke ARAMAIC and didn’t write anything down in any language (in the dirt doesn’t count) about whose life *nothing *was written down for at least 30 years, and that narrated by a Jew to someone who wrote it down in Greek.

So you have not heard of St Paul then?

And it gets worse after that. Earliest copies of the gospels from the late 4th century.

Earliest copies of the Gospels were written by eye-witnesses to the events they recorded. In fact there were many written records including non-believing Roman diarists.

There was no need of written records when those who witnessed the events, were still alive. It was only as they began to die off that the Bishops of the Church decided that a permanent record needed to be kept. The Bible was canonised before the 4th century so it is ludicrous to say that Gospels were not written until then

I corrected your misspellings

Thank you, I am very grateful. I do occasionally have dyslexia difficulties.

As for ‘wishing you to go to hell’, you may be surprised to hear that actually ‘I do not wish that on anyone!’

In fact I wish you health happiness and above all eternal life.

I may not agree with what you say but I still love you!

Blessings and peace.

 

[Lilyflower]

Great Things–unspecified, of course–were promised at Fatima.the promise of miracles, from Jesus onward, consists of someone or something performing acts which cannot be explained by science–not hysterical ‘cures’, not visions, but something which medicine and science cannot duplicate at all. These are promised to enhance belief. If there is no miracle, then why are they promised, by Jesus or Mary or anyone else? Then, when they don’t appear, people are reminded that ‘true faith’ doesn’t require miracles! So–why bring them up in the first place?

I corrected your mis-spelling again.

Thank you once again. I too corrected your mis-spelling too!

Only today I spoke to a man whose life had fallen apart, he was in a strange country, had difficulties with the language and had no-one to turn. As a lapsed Catholic, he turned to Him and He did not let him down. His life is ‘miraculously’ [that is: against all the odds] back on stream and things are going really well for him. He said he attributes this entirely to devotion to Fatima, his mother taking the trouble [unknown at the time to him] to go there and pray for him. I know of the problems he had, seeings I am his probation supervisor!

Blessings and peace

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Such as…?

the aztec Indians who converted to Catholicism from their pagan religion, in the 15th century.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Someone was doubting that prayers to the Virgin Mary can restore severed limbs?
tracce.it/arch98/NOV98/ingl11/38in.htm

 

[Steve_Pearson]

I am not sure about “apparitions”, but I get weary of hearing about someone claiming that a pattern burned into their toast is the image of Mary, or a stain on a wall is the image of Christ. These odd assertions make other claims of apparitions harder to believe.

Hebrews 1 and 2 do a fairly good job of pointing out that angels are servants sent to minister for us and that they are Gods messengers. I would think God would use the angels and not Mary and the Appostles to deliver messages.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

On the other hand, we have Jesus talking with Moses and Elijah during the Transfiguration, so we know from the scripture that communication between the people of God and saints in Heaven can and does happen.

We also have at least two passages from Psalms which directly say, “you angelic hosts, praise the Lord, all you hosts in heaven, praise the Lord,” directly addressing those that are in Heaven, in prayer. Psalm 148 is one of these, if I recall correctly. I don’t remember the other offhand.

Revelation also has two chapters that show saints and angels carrying to God the prayers of the saints on Earth, which shows that those in Heaven receive our prayers and in turn pray for us to God.

There’s a done of precedent in the Bible for interaction in the Communion of Saints between those in Heaven (saints as well as angels) and those on Earth, including prayers to saints in Heaven and saints praying for us, and according to the Transfiguration incident, sometimes even back and forth communication between the saints and the person who is praying to them (just as happens with the angels).

You mention that the angels are God’s messengers. That is true- and according to the Epistles, so are saints on Earth! We are called ambassadors for Christ. That saints in Heaven who are one with us should also express God’s will, meeting us and giving messages, or blessing or praying for us, isn’t in any way counter to the messages of Scripture.

Also, the Church has been doing it from the very earliest times. There is evidence from carvings on catacombs that Christians were praying to Mary between 100 and 150 AD.

Pretty much all the Catholic Church’s Tradition about saints is visible both from scripture and the practice of the Early Church.

 

[elizabeth22]

Hello everyone. I’ve just discovered this thread, and I wanted to reply, please forgive the lateness of the reply however. I’ve done much reading and studying of the apparitions of our Blessed Mother Mary. I’ve also prayed for discernment. At one time, I was a believer in Medjugorje and nearly Garabandal, but not now. My belief is that G. is just plain demonic, with the children running backwards and their heads tilted at such an awkward angle is surely not of God. I’ve also just finished reading Michael Brown’s book, The Final Hour and on page 140 of the book it states from an interview with Conchita that the Blessed Virgin says there will only be two more Popes after Paul VI. His successor was John Paul I (for only 33 days, but nonetheless still Pope) , then John Paul II, and now we have Pope Benedict. That’s three by my count. I didn’t believe in G. before I read this book, but now I really believe something is majorly amiss. As far as Medj., I believe it is a hoax as well. There is no way our Blessed Mother would create division in the Church her Son came to earth to set up. I’m talking about disobedience to Bishops, I believe early on one of the visionaries said Mary called one of the Bishops a wolf. Satan loves to create confusion and I truly believe Medj. could one day create a schism within the Church, which may well have been the intent all along. If the Church were to declare Medj. false, I think there may be a large number of people who continue their belief in Medj. and go against Church rulings on this. The words that keep popping in my head are that false prophets will arise like a swarm of flies in the last days. Where in the world did I read that? Also, I can’t remember the name of the previous poster who went to Medjugorje and was denied absolution. O.K., that is blatant disobedience right there. You cannot deliberately go against the teachings of the church, because if you do, that puts you in schism from the church. Fruits of Medjugorje?? Smells like rotten fruits to me. In closing, please understand that I honor our Blessed Mother Mary, she brought forth the Saviour of the World. She is pure, these things I’ve mentioned above are not.
Have a blessed day everyone!!

 

[elizabeth22]

I didn’t mean the poster who went to Medj. was in the wrong, I was referring to the priest who denied the poster absolution in confession. The Priest in Medj. is who I was referring to as creating division and possibly schism. Just wanted to make sure you understood who I was referring to there.

 

[Lief_Erikson]

Hello everyone. I’ve just discovered this thread, and I wanted to reply, please forgive the lateness of the reply however. I’ve done much reading and studying of the apparitions of our Blessed Mother Mary. I’ve also prayed for discernment. At one time, I was a believer in Medjugorje and nearly Garabandal, but not now. My belief is that G. is just plain demonic, with the children running backwards and their heads tilted at such an awkward angle is surely not of God.

Hard to tell. God told Ezekiel to lie on his side for about a year, which sounds at least as peculiar. God also afflicted Nebuchadnezzar with madness and had him go out into the fields, eating grass, fingernails and hair growing long and untended, because he failed to glorify God. God acts in peculiar ways at times .

If these children were influenced by demons, I’d expect us to be hearing false doctrine from them, or dangerous doctrinal interpretations, or seeing a revulsion to holy objects. They love holy objects, though, and I have not heard anything that contradicts Orthodox Catholic teaching.

One of their strongest messages it to encourage people to partake of the Eucharist more, and to hold it in greater reverence.

I’ve also just finished reading Michael Brown’s book, The Final Hour and on page 140 of the book it states from an interview with Conchita that the Blessed Virgin says there will only be two more Popes after Paul VI. His successor was John Paul I (for only 33 days, but nonetheless still Pope) , then John Paul II, and now we have Pope Benedict. That’s three by my count. I didn’t believe in G. before I read this book, but now I really believe something is majorly amiss.

Here’s a good response to this that I read on a website:
"Mary said 3 Popes and then it would be the end of our times. Pope John Paul II saw us through the Millenium and 911 which kicked off WWIII. Pope Benedict is the first Pope of the end of our times. Listen carefully to the words Mary uses. “There will be only three more Popes and then it will be the end of our times"Conchita is still alive and living in NY. She will anounce to the world the miracle 8 days in advance.I’m sorry it took so long to get back to your comment.
IN His Name, Stephen”

As far as Medj., I believe it is a hoax as well. There is no way our Blessed Mother would create division in the Church her Son came to earth to set up.

Jesus said that he had come to bring division, to set families against one another. There will always be those who don’t believe his signs when he reveals them. That doesn’t mean he should never reveal signs.

I’m talking about disobedience to Bishops, I believe early on one of the visionaries said Mary called one of the Bishops a wolf. Satan loves to create confusion and I truly believe Medj. could one day create a schism within the Church, which may well have been the intent all along. If the Church were to declare Medj. false, I think there may be a large number of people who continue their belief in Medj. and go against Church rulings on this. The words that keep popping in my head are that false prophets will arise like a swarm of flies in the last days. Where in the world did I read that? Also, I can’t remember the name of the previous poster who went to Medjugorje and was denied absolution. O.K., that is blatant disobedience right there. You cannot deliberately go against the teachings of the church, because if you do, that puts you in schism from the church. Fruits of Medjugorje?? Smells like rotten fruits to me. In closing, please understand that I honor our Blessed Mother Mary, she brought forth the Saviour of the World. She is pure, these things I’ve mentioned above are not.
Have a blessed day everyone!!

You may be right about Medjugorje. I’ll wait on the Church’s judgment before discarding it, myself.

 

[elizabeth22]

Thank you Lief E. for your reply and you’ve given me much to think about. Michael Brown’s book ,“The Final Hour” shows me that that as it stands right now, we only have a handful of approved apparitions, and that much of what was predicted has not come to fruition. His book was written in 1992. I’m on my way to Mass and I will post more later this evening. God Bless.

 

[elizabeth22]

Just suppose it has always been the goal of Satan through false apparitions and false visionaries to sow confusion and division in the minds of those who belong to the Catholic Church. It’s like he’s creating a “chink” in the armor of the Church. What better way to literally bring about the demise of the Church than by the outward appearance of good fruits, conversions, and holy visionaries,( the visionaries may very well be Satan’s unknowing pawns) all the while lurking around and confusing good people and ultimately if Satan has his way, chasing them away from the Church. How many people will be led astray if Medj. and G. are declared false and these people decide they know better than the Church? Or that they want nothing to do with the Church? Is this what Satan wanted in the beginning? I think that’s a huge possibility, especially since the third secret of Fatima pertained to apostasy in the Church. (I think that was part of the third secret anyways) Satan is a slick one that old weasel. If you read the book by Michael Brown, you’ll see that the number of prophecies to come true is so very small. These are just my thoughts, I mean no disrespect to anyone. As for me and my time, if I was going anywhere, I’d go to the Vatican when the Pope was in residence and go to Mass and get a Papal blessing. I could sure use the indulgence that comes with it.