Appeal to apologists

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Brad_Haas

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Hey folks. I’ve noticed some things going on in this very forum that aren’t very good - some people are making serious mistakes in the way they’re handling arguments. I’ve been there and done it, and experienced suffering because of it, so I wrote an article about it: An appeal to apologists.

I ask people who post regularly in apologetics forums, if you have time, please read it and think about it. Let me know any thoughts you have about the article, whether good, bad, suggestions, whatever.

P.S. Moderators, if I was wrong to post this here (as opposed to another forum or not at all), I apologize, and please move or trash it and let me know.
 
Brad,

Later this morning I will be going into an outpatient lab to find out whether or not anything can be done to salvage this wrecked body so that I may know - barring accidents - the amount of time I may have remaining to enjoy this world. It’s something that I’ve known about for a little over a month and it’s really no big deal - I have been blessed in this life and hope that I have repaid some of those blessing with and by God’s grace, for on my own I have nothing to boast.

I’ve printed your appeal and stuck it, along with a pencil with eraser into the bag I’m taking just in case there is no way to use the laptop (also going into bag - small laptop, small bag) or connect to the Internet while in hospital (which I would think quaint and very 19th century, but you never know…) so if I’ve a chance I will read your appeal more carefully, make notations, and return with a comment or two - perhaps even a rebuttal - in the next day or week or so.

Several points that you make bear repeating time and time again. As you wrote in your introductory remarks, your final ‘testing ground’ for apologetics was “posting on discussion boards” and this remains a place where skills can be developed: as you go on to say, “This last is a hallmark of modern lay apologists, and I’ve found that what someone writes on a website can be a good indication of their approach to apologetics in the rest of the world” this is where our views, or beliefs, begin to diverge and it’s likely at this point that I would like to begin the conversation, for I feel that that which is written on a website makes one lazy, and even sloppy, for it creates a dependency on tools which the ‘Speaker’s Corner’ apologist lacks, which can never be made available to those who debate on a stage and are not, in fact, the most useful tools that one can find when apologetics is presented in the form of newspaper or magazine articles or, even, books. I make that last argument for two reasons: 1) what one finds by ‘Googling’ can often be so overwhelming that the reference one seeks might very well be number 176,072 as ranked in a listing of 333,688 listings and it is the rare man (or woman!) who will make the first 175,000 clicks without giving up in frustration, and; 2) what one finds by ‘Googling’ can often be so under-whelming that one wonders if one is losing or has lost one’s mind.

As an example of the latter, last week I wanted I quote from an author from a specific book I had just completed a few weeks before. The author is well-known and of the early 20th century, the book well known in the public domain and while not found at every corner drugstore is usually available at most major bookstores (specifically at the ‘super stores’), and the bon mot itself so well known that I have heard it repeated again and again during my life. My search query, no matter how broad or compact never yielded ,ore than two ‘hits’, and even then did not reference the page number or original date of publication, and sometimes resulted in zero ‘hits’. In frustration, I walked the 25 feet to the appropriate bookcase, found the book and the information I needed and was done within a minute or so. One might think - and might be correct - that had my sequence of words (name removed by moderator)ut been just so I might have yielded greater numbers of hits, or that by using various ‘paid’ services for search engines, my yield may have increased. I concede both these points - what I cannot concede, however, is that from years of using Lexis/Nexis my search skills are certainly in the ‘good’ category’ and that on this particular day it was my walking to the bookshelf skills that needed more exercising than my search skills and it was certainly THOSE skills which paid off. Had I been in Hyde Park ready to make my parry, a wireless connection would have done me no good while a scrap of paper secreted away in a match pocket, or a quick comment on the s;y to a more knowledgeable friend, could well have proven to be my saving graces. I am no Luddite but sometimes there is simply no replacement for being able to read, to read well, and to be able to recall from memory the most minute fragment of information.

So where we would initially disagree, I think, is that you find that “what someone writes on a website can be a good indication of their approach to apologetics in the rest of the world” while I find the opposite ti be the case: that initial reading and use of this type of website is, these days, the initial approach to apologetics and can only provide the initiative and not the result of an education.

I will concede, however, that I may be wrong - for the simple reason that there were no websites in 1946 or 1947…

More to say - more to agree and disagree about; more, I hope to discuss. Need now to sleep if able. More later, I go hope - you’re a bright young man, obviously full of faith and love - such a wonderful thing to see these days.
 
Ben,

Thanks for your thoughts. I’m sorry to hear what’s happening, and I’m praying for you.

In the article, I didn’t mean to say that Internet discussions are the peak of an apologist’s career. I guess it was a little unclear, but what I meant was that most of us amateur apologists post on discussion boards, and I think the anonymity usually allows people’s bad side to come through.

The ones in Hyde Park, and especially the ones who don’t need Google, are much better and certainly more effective at this than we Internet debaters. Frank Sheed is one of my personal heroes.

I totally agree with you that Internet discussion should in most cases be just a start, and secondary to real-life discussion - that’s what it’s been for me.

So, maybe I should change the wording of that statement. Thanks again for your comments.
 
Good article, Brad. I agree with just about all of it, and some of those points I have been trying to get across here myself. It is good to know that even if Catholics and LDS don’t see eye to eye on everything, at least they can address those issues rightly and respectfluly (sp?).
 
Patience has never been my strong suit. I don’t mind debate, but when it becomes bigotry then I call 'em as I see 'em. Likewise if a group is persecuting Catholics. Just call me zealous.
 
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cestusdei:
Patience has never been my strong suit. I don’t mind debate, but when it becomes bigotry then I call 'em as I see 'em.
how ironic… some of your posts exude the some of the same thing you can’t seem to stand.
 
R, when I see fellow Catholics persecuted by Muslims and then Muslims either deny it happens or say that’s what the lousy kaffirs get for being dhimmi I don’t pull punches.
 
Brad Haas:
Ben,

Thanks for your thoughts. I’m sorry to hear what’s happening, and I’m praying for you.
Brad,

I’m in hospital (and have access to the web, at least, on my own laptop!) and expect to be here for a bit but have made some notes and will respond within the next couple of days. Likely confine myself to reading more than writing. Not certain yet if I’m looking at months or decades - doesn’t really matter, though. In a good hospital where I can depend on a cadre of priests to help me work out salvaging my soul and so I am in the very best place one could hope to be. Just had a bite of dinner - hospital food has greatly improved since I last had it!
 
I’ve been praying for you today ben_dy. I’ll continue to do so 🙂
 
Brad,

I think you have done an excellent job of summarizing the major responsibilities of an apologist. My initial interest in apologetics came from a desire to deal with my own doubts, since the church of my childhood did not do much in the way of reconciling faith and reason. Discovering C. S. Lewis was a godsend (literally) for me, because he taught me that Christianity was reasonable. He also indirectly led me to the Church of Rome (but that’s another story).
When I first began trying to pass along the great insights that I had learned from Lewis, I committed all the mistakes you mention and a few you didn’t. I just did not understand why people would not gladly embrace a reasonable argument. Over the years, I have tempered my approach, yet I still make blunders. It seems to me that my greatest fault is when I allow pride to intrude into the process. Then I get so wrapped up in wanting to be the hero and rescue some poor soul from error that I forget that my purpose is to provide a living example of Christ. I shudder to think that I may have driven someone farther from God or His Church by my clumsy efforts.
Another problem I have is patience. I usually take a fair amount of time to organize and compose a letter or a post to a forum like this. Seeing it shrugged aside by someone who does not seem to have taken the time to carefully read and understand it is incredibly frustrating. Someone like amgid makes me want to chew nails.
I have always liked Lewis’ poem “The Apologist’s Evening Prayer”, and it is so appropriate to this post, I’ll quote it in full:

From all my lame defeats and oh! Much more
From all the victories that I seemed to score;
From cleverness shot forth on Thy behalf
At which, while angels weep, the audience laugh;
From all my proofs of Thy divinity,
Thou, who wouldst give no sign, deliver me.

Thoughts are but coins. Let me not trust, instead
Of Thee, their thin-worn image of Thy head.
From all my thoughts, even from my thoughts of Thee,
O thou fair Silence, fall, and set me free.
Lord of the narrow gate and the needle’s eye,
Take from me all my trumpery lest I die.

Under the Mercy,
Phaedrus

P.S. to Ben: you are in my prayers as well. I admire the rationality and precision of your posts, and I pray for a speedy recovery so that you can continue the fight! UTM
 
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ben_dy:
Brad,

I’m in hospital (and have access to the web, at least, on my own laptop!) and expect to be here for a bit but have made some notes and will respond within the next couple of days. Likely confine myself to reading more than writing. Not certain yet if I’m looking at months or decades - doesn’t really matter, though. In a good hospital where I can depend on a cadre of priests to help me work out salvaging my soul and so I am in the very best place one could hope to be. Just had a bite of dinner - hospital food has greatly improved since I last had it!
I too am sorry, know that your in my prayers and may the merciful Lord keep you! :blessyou:
 
Dear Jesus, Divine Physician and Healer of the sick, we turn to you in this time of illness. O dearest comforter of the troubled, alleviate our worry and sorrow with your gentle love, and grant us the grace and strength to accept this burden. Dear God, we place our worries in your hands. We place our sick under your care and humbly ask that you restore your servant, (Ben), to health again. Above all, grant us the grace to acknowledge your will and know that whatever you do, you do for the love of us. Amen.
 
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ben_dy:
I’m in hospital (and have access to the web, at least, on my own laptop!) and expect to be here for a bit but have made some notes and will respond within the next couple of days. Likely confine myself to reading more than writing. Not certain yet if I’m looking at months or decades - doesn’t really matter, though. In a good hospital where I can depend on a cadre of priests to help me work out salvaging my soul and so I am in the very best place one could hope to be. Just had a bite of dinner - hospital food has greatly improved since I last had it!
I am sorry to hear that Ben. I am sure the Lord will look after you, and you will be OK. I hope your Mormon friends haven’t abandoned you. If you let them know that you are in hospital, they will come and visit you and keep you company.

amgid
 
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Phaedrus:
It seems to me that my greatest fault is when I allow pride to intrude into the process. Then I get so wrapped up in wanting to be the hero and rescue some poor soul from error that I forget that my purpose is to provide a living example of Christ. I shudder to think that I may have driven someone farther from God or His Church by my clumsy efforts.

Another problem I have is patience. I usually take a fair amount of time to organize and compose a letter or a post to a forum like this. Seeing it shrugged aside by someone who does not seem to have taken the time to carefully read and understand it is incredibly frustrating. Someone like amgid makes me want to chew nails.
Phaedrus,

Pride is my most overwhelming fault and the single fault which I must be on guard against every minute that I breathe (and particularly before I open my mouth to speak! Or, on Internet boards, before I allow my fingers to fly). I believe that it’s a trait that is the greatest stumbling block for all but, in apologetics, it has to be the most important to be rid of and the most difficult to be rid of. Apologetics crosses the threshold of “wanting to be right” and making your argument to “knowing that you’re right and yet at times having to concede that you’re not able to make the best argument and yet, when arguing online, not wishing to resort to a simple list of links in which ‘your’ argument is better and more succinctly explained. The CA article for which a link was posted does a good job, I think, of explaining that conundrum. In real, face-to-face apologetics, I always fall back on my first and simplest explanation (which is usually not based on the most critical theology) and the, as debate progresses, bring out one of the many ‘apologetics notebooks’ which have undergone constant revision in the past 45-50 years and which have summations on various topics that are likely to arise with brief quotes from those who have done a better job at explaining than I could ever have done. Knowing that I must rely on others goes a long way in keeping pride in check - and if I do have the honor of standing as sponsor for someone who has been ‘won over’ by my argument I know, then particularly, that it is not my victory, but Christ’s. Paul (who, as I read him, struggled with pride as well, else he would not deny it so many times!) As Paul asks in 1 Cor 1:13 " Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” I have to remember that it is not in Ben’s name that I would have my friends baptized!

Patience is something with which I have never had a problem - I am far too slow to anger for most! My dear late wife couldn’t understand why I would rather look at any problem at every different angle rather than getting angry and making a quick decision. I have a great deal of respect for amgid, for instance, and only wish that he would make better arguments or ‘let go’ of that which cannot be argued. My ‘patience’ with him has really only been tried once and that was as much over a particular circumstance of my life which he could have known nothing about than anything having to do with him personally. He can be frustrating, I know - he doesn’t play by the ‘rules’ as Brad has set forth here or those described in the CA article. But he is in a much tougher position and he is sort of a ‘lone wolf’ around here - I hope he does not ‘go away’ as he has said that he might because he offers insight into doctrine that other LDS members might avoid. In light of Brad’s appeal (which I hope to finish my reply by Friday or Saturday when I am tentatively scheduled to be released from hospital) I’ll only ask for a bit more patience for amgid than you would normally give others because I believe he offers we Catholics here a unique look into the LDS church.
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Phaedrus:
From all my lame defeats and oh! Much more
From all the victories that I seemed to score;
From cleverness shot forth on Thy behalf
At which, while angels weep, the audience laugh;
From all my proofs of Thy divinity,
Thou, who wouldst give no sign, deliver me.


Lord of the narrow gate and the needle’s eye,
Take from me all my trumpery lest I die.

Under the Mercy,
Phaedrus

P.S. to Ben: you are in my prayers as well. I admire the rationality and precision of your posts, and I pray for a speedy recovery so that you can continue the fight! UTM
Just had to repeat a portion of that quote! And to say that not only are the prayers appreciated but that God has allowed me a glimpse of them. I’ve had no supernatural visitations (I thought I was experiencing one last might, but it was just a 2 a.m. check of vital signs) but I have felt a comfort that can only be God making me aware of the prayers being sent to Him on my behalf - can’t explain it with any more clarity than that.
 
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amgid:
I am sorry to hear that Ben. I am sure the Lord will look after you, and you will be OK. I hope your Mormon friends haven’t abandoned you. If you let them know that you are in hospital, they will come and visit you and keep you company.

amgid
amgid,

Thanks for your kind words. Yes, my oldest and dearest LDS friend and the local ward president (? I’m not certain of his title!) did anoint me the morning before I went into hospital, as did my parish pastor. Whatever the final outcome, God’s will will be done. Just now I’m bed-bound in a rather awkward position in which I can type - just slowly! I hope to be out of here Friday or Saturday and then later will be moving to a facility closer to where I can receive the therapy I’ll need. So there is adventure ahead!

Thank you again - and PLEASE don’t go away!

In Christ.
 
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