Approved English translation and "pro multis"

[peregrinus_sg]

No need to guess. The USCCB has put up the complete Order of Mass (approved text) on its web site.

usccb.org/liturgy/missalformation/index.shtml

 

[Joannm]

Doesn’t make sense. If it takes a while, then it should be introduced as soon as possible, last Sunday the latest.

?

They cannot begin using it now because the entire missal is not completer. The final section, the collects, have not been approved. No publisher is going to print worship aids and missals that they will have to change in three years.

Also, as mentioned, dioceses are going to have to work on catechetical materials to help the transition. I know our diocesan liturgy commission has already been asked to study the texts and come up with how we as a diocese are going to proceed with this. Also, composers are going to have to come up with new settings for the mass parts since almost all of the sung parts have changed significanly enough to warrent completer overhaul of old settings and composition of new ones. The publishers are going to make a FORTUNE from all this.

 

[mozier]

So why the appeal of the Anglican Mass?

Because its English use is beautiful.

And (once again, thank you, Fr. Z!) it is a vast improvement on the typical Catholic Mass prayer:

God You Are Big,
Make Us Big Like You. Amen.

 

[Chatter163]

Why was this not done 40 years ago?

Because the folks in charge of translations at the time had an agenda, and it did not include accurate translations.

I don’t think implementing this will be as easy as it seems. These people have been too conditioned to replying “And also with you.” In fact, sometimes they reply to the extension of his hands rather than “The Lord be with you.” We’re all such creatures of habit, you know.

We survived the switch from Latin to English forty years ago; we will survive this far lesser change.

Having said that, I’d prefer “P.The Lord be with THEE. R. And with THY spirit.” Sounds a little more prayerful.

Thee is the singular objective case, while you is plural. Since the priest speaks to the entire congregation, you would be necessary, whereas the priest is one person, the congregation would reply in the singular thy. (In the nominative case, it would be Thou and Ye.) This is how older Latin-English missal translations were handled, and is how traditional Anglican forms still do it.

 

[VociMike]

And (once again, thank you, Fr. Z!) it is a vast improvement on the typical Catholic Mass prayer:

God You Are Big,
Make Us Big Like You. Amen.

Hadn’t heard that one before.

But often it seems to get rendered as

God You Are Big,
And We Are Big Too. Amen.

 

[ProVobis]

We survived the switch from Latin to English forty years ago; we will survive this far lesser change.

It was much more than the Latin but point well-taken.

Thee is the singular objective case, while you is plural. Since the priest speaks to the entire congregation, you would be necessary, whereas the priest is one person, the congregation would reply in the singular thy. (In the nominative case, it would be Thou and Ye.) This is how older Latin-English missal translations were handled, and is how traditional Anglican forms still do it.

I stand corrected. We still use it in the Our Father (THY Name, THY Kingdom come) and Hail Mary (the Lord is with THEE), I hope.

As for the plural you, can’t we just use ‘youse’ (The Lord be with youse)?

 

[Cory_Sticha]

As for the plural you, can’t we just use ‘youse’ (The Lord be with youse)?

Of course it can’t be ‘youse’. After all, in my Latin class at seminary, we figured out that vobis is “y’all”, so the priest should say, “The Lord be with y’all.”

 

[PhilotheaZ]

Of course it can’t be ‘youse’. After all, in my Latin class at seminary, we figured out that vobis is “y’all”, so the priest should say, “The Lord be with y’all.”

In certain parts of the South, the plural is “all y’all” (“y’all” being singular).

 

[benedictgal]

I’m from Texas, but, I wouldn’t want to hear my parochial vicar say, “The Lord be with y’all” and he, too, is a proud Texan.

That being said, I do enjoy the formality of the Anglican-use Mass. You see, what we do at Mass is completely out of the ordinary. We are worshipping God; the language needs to move up several notches. We are in the presence of the Divine Majesty of God.

I am very anxious for “pro multis” to take effect. We need to have an authentic translation that is free of idiosyncracies and political correctness.

 

[ProVobis]

You see, what we do at Mass is completely out of the ordinary. We are worshipping God; the language needs to move up several notches. We are in the presence of the Divine Majesty of God.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Very well stated. Three thumbs up.

 

[ProVobis]

Of course it can’t be ‘youse’. After all, in my Latin class at seminary, we figured out that vobis is “y’all”, so the priest should say, “The Lord be with y’all.”

Yes, but we’ll have to practice with y’many.

 

[ethelzguy]

No need to guess. The USCCB has put up the complete Order of Mass (approved text) on its web site.

usccb.org/liturgy/missalformation/index.shtml

Just read it.

No doubt, there will be some confusion as people adapt. People are interesting to observe. I have a friend, who from time to time, to prove his theory that people could be led like cattle, would deliberately stand up at the wrong time during Mass, to see if everyone else would follow. 90% of them usually did.

No, it’s not funny to “tamper” with the Mass, but I am reminded of his antics when I read the new translation. Much of the same will likely occur. Habits are hard to break.

I suspect us old farts will adapt better than the younger crowd. Much of this will be automatic from our subconscious memory.

 

[ProVobis]

I have a friend, who from time to time, to prove his theory that people could be led like cattle, would deliberately stand up at the wrong time during Mass, to see if everyone else would follow. 90% of them usually did.

Sad but very true. And the sadder part is that half of them will actually try to find a good reason for it.

Habits are hard to break.

Also true. You can break them if you’re conscious of it but left to not thinking or perfunctory mannerisms, you’ll revert to the old way.

 

[Brendan]

Just read it.

No doubt, there will be some confusion as people adapt. People are interesting to observe. I have a friend, who from time to time, to prove his theory that people could be led like cattle, would deliberately stand up at the wrong time during Mass, to see if everyone else would follow. 90% of them usually did.

The really funny one is when the reading of the day includes 2 Cor 13:14 and the lector reads “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.”
…and everyone responds “And also with you”

…Of course, by 2012, they will all be responding “And with your spirit”

 

[AJV]

The really funny one is when the reading of the day includes 2 Cor 13:14 and the lector reads “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.”
…and everyone responds “And also with you”

I witnessed something similar once when the priest was quoting Jesus in the homily on forgiveness of sins. The reading was from the Gospel of St. John about Jesus appearing to the apostles “Receive the Holy Spirit”. “Peace be with you: said Jes-” but quite a few people interrupted with “And also with you”. The priest was silent for a moment, then gave a half smile which he tried to cover with a cough, and worked that into his homily.

Things like this make me wonder how the new translation is going to be implemented. Some things are so deeply ingrained, it’s like an automatic-robot-mode “The Lord be with you” “And also with you”. It will be interesting. I’ve seen it several times for the Hail Mary when people revert mid-sentence…“Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with you, blessed are you…and blessed is the fruit of **thy **womb”

 

[ethelzguy]

The really funny one is when the reading of the day includes 2 Cor 13:14 and the lector reads “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.”
…and everyone responds “And also with you”

…Of course, by 2012, they will all be responding “And with your spirit”

And protestants have the nerve to accuse us of rote participation.