Arapahoe HS Shooting

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And I hope you are in the majority that you are against any regulation whatsoever. The USA has nuclear weapons - should a private citizen have access to this also?
Unrealistic given the cost of developing one (let alone launch+guidance systems), but I wouldn’t have a problem with this, no.
What about gallows, the electric chair, lethal injection, gas chamber?
These are inanimate objects. Curiously people kill themselves by hanging, electrocution, drug overdose or carbon monoxide poisoning respectively all the time without these devices.
Should private citizens have these because agents of the state do also?
Why shouldn’t they?
 
I don’t understand something here. On one hand, people on the Left say “Ordinary citizens couldn’t possibly expect to defend themselves against the government” and on the other hand you say “why do ordinary citizens need military-type arms?”

Well duh. That is precisely *why *citizens need military-type arms. How else are they going to have a fighting chance?
Like the devil convincing you he doesn’t exist, beware a government telling you that you don’t “need” a particular weapon.

You’re being set up in both cases.

I will decide what I “need”.
 
Unrealistic given the cost of developing one (let alone launch+guidance systems), but I wouldn’t have a problem with this, no.

These are inanimate objects. Curiously people kill themselves by hanging, electrocution, drug overdose or carbon monoxide poisoning respectively all the time without these devices.

Why shouldn’t they?
Being unrealistic isn’t necessarily applicable in a hypothetical situation. The argument was made that a private citizen should have rights to possess the same weaponry as the United States military and government, so I followed the logic to propose the flaw.

And I find it hard to argue that because people die in a certain manner, having tools specifically meant to kill others in the same manner should be OK.

Lastly, we give our military and law enforcement personnel certain rights we withhold from ourselves to do jobs that we do not do ourselves - maintain order, pursue and arrest criminals, and defend us from attack. That is why they receive special training, take oaths, and are held to higher standards. If you don’t like the system, then remember that the same people who created and fostered it were the people who ensured your right to bear arms.
 
Like the devil convincing you he doesn’t exist, beware a government telling you that you don’t “need” a particular weapon.

You’re being set up in both cases.

I will decide what I “need”.
Like you can decide how much to pay in taxes, what health plan you will have, whether a hypothetical underage daughter could obtain birth control or an abortion without your knowledge? I’m not arguing the government knows best, but saying that you will decide what is best is a futile argument in the public forum.

Following that logic, James Holmes or Adam Lonza could have argued that they ‘needed’ howitzers. Would you prefer they had those aimed at schools or theater crowds?
 
Like the devil convincing you he doesn’t exist, beware a government telling you that you don’t “need” a particular weapon.

You’re being set up in both cases.

I will decide what I “need”.
Also, I’d say beware of a government telling you that you don’t need weapons, but minimal regulation does not indicate imminent persecution or enslavement by a tryannical government.
 
Lastly, we give our military and law enforcement personnel certain rights we withhold from ourselves to do jobs that we do not do ourselves
You need study up on the word “rights”. The military and the police do have more rights than other people. They may have privileges and special authorizations, but they don’t have special rights.
 
You need study up on the word “rights”. The military and the police do have more rights than other people. They may have privileges and special authorizations, but they don’t have special rights.
Rights, privileges, authorizations, permissions, whatever you feel the need to call it - we allow certain agents to act in certain ways and possess certain items that the regular private citizen cannot, and this is authorized and enforced by a code of law.
 
Rights, privileges, authorizations, permissions, whatever you feel the need to call it - we allow certain agents to act in certain ways and possess certain items that the regular private citizen cannot, and this is authorized and enforced by a code of law.
Like I said, learn what a “right” is.

And while you are at it, Take a course in Civics 101.
 
Like I said, learn what a “right” is.

And while you are at it, Take a course in Civics 101.
Perhaps you wouldn’t mind giving up the argument in semantics and focus on the content of my words? Clearly the point came across that we allow agents of the state to carry weapons the average citizen does not, and I have discussed multiple times why the argument that “any weapon available to the state should be available to private citizens” falls flat on its face.
 
Being unrealistic isn’t necessarily applicable in a hypothetical situation. The argument was made that a private citizen should have rights to possess the same weaponry as the United States military and government, so I followed the logic to propose the flaw.
And…I’m genuinely not seeing the flaw.
And I find it hard to argue that because people die in a certain manner, having tools specifically meant to kill others in the same manner should be OK.
Malum in se vs malum prohibitum.

I could have 20 guillotines on my front lawn; what of it? This is not prohibited unless by statute (malum prohibitum-bad because it is forbidden).

If I drag a random pedestrian to one of them and lop his head off with it, I am guilty of murder (malum in se-bad in and of itself).

In any event the guillotine was uttery harmless (assuming not left in the “up” position lol) until I made it otherwise, so why ban guillotines when any use of them on a person is in and of itself illegal?
Lastly, we give our military and law enforcement personnel certain rights we withhold from ourselves to do jobs that we do not do ourselves - maintain order, pursue and arrest criminals, and defend us from attack. That is why they receive special training, take oaths, and are held to higher standards. If you don’t like the system, then remember that the same people who created and fostered it were the people who ensured your right to bear arms.
Not to deviate too much, but GW explicitly stated his mistrust of standing armies, a concern I happen to share.

Don’t get me started on our militarized “civilian” police.
 
Like you can decide how much to pay in taxes, what health plan you will have, whether a hypothetical underage daughter could obtain birth control or an abortion without your knowledge? I’m not arguing the government knows best, but saying that you will decide what is best is a futile argument in the public forum.
When my weapons are in my own dwelling and paid for with my own money I would think a so-called “free” society would wish to respect my right to handle my own private property.
Following that logic, James Holmes or Adam Lonza could have argued that they ‘needed’ howitzers. Would you prefer they had those aimed at schools or theater crowds?
The price tag, scarce ammo, and poor mobility of a howitzer makes that kind of illogical.

Plus they’re crew operated.
 
Rights, privileges, authorizations, permissions, whatever you feel the need to call it - we allow certain agents to act in certain ways and possess certain items that the regular private citizen cannot, and this is authorized and enforced by a code of law.
Rights and Privileges are not the same thing. Privileges can be taken away, rights can only be unjustly denied.
 
I didn’t claim it wasn’t possible. I piggy-backed off the claim that the military will always be better armed than civilians, to which you countered that the military would ‘lead the charge’ on Washington. I then asked you why, then, if the well-armed military is leading the charge do we need weapons of equitable destruction, to which you did not respond.
I never said the military would lead the charge on Washington. That was a different poster.
 
That isn’t the question - the question is should you LEGALLY be able to own one? If the NSA catches that you are shopping around for plutonium and detonators, I’m guessing they’ll be keeping you under 24-hour surveillance.
Let’s stay on this tangent of nuclear weapons for a second. Every time I tell people that I believe private citizens should be able to possess the same weapons as the military and police, they always bring up the nuclear weapon argument.

So, let’s say tomorrow the government suddenly made a law that private citizens could possess any weapon they wanted, including nuclear weapons, what do you think would happen?
 
Being unrealistic isn’t necessarily applicable in a hypothetical situation. The argument was made that a private citizen should have rights to possess the same weaponry as the United States military and government, so I followed the logic to propose the flaw.
What flaw in the logic did you expose? The only thing you brought up was nuclear weapons. Another poster responded about the infeasibility of private citizens owning nuclear weapons due to cost, materials, knowledge, guidance systems, launch platforms, etc. I pointed out that if I had the means and resources to acquire a nuclear weapon, the laws of this country could not stop me.
 
I pointed out that if I had the means and resources to acquire a nuclear weapon, the laws of this country could not stop me.
I imagine with a nuke your liberty would definitely nullify their authority to infringe on it.

😃
 
Like you can decide how much to pay in taxes, what health plan you will have, whether a hypothetical underage daughter could obtain birth control or an abortion without your knowledge? I’m not arguing the government knows best, but saying that you will decide what is best is a futile argument in the public forum.

Following that logic, James Holmes or Adam Lonza could have argued that they ‘needed’ howitzers. Would you prefer they had those aimed at schools or theater crowds?
You say you’re not arguing that government knows best but then you say that they should restrict ownership of certain firearms. Which is it? I know what’s best for me, not the government. I’m not saying what’s best for you. If you don’t want to own a firearm, fine, that’s your choice. But how do you have the right to say what firearm I can and cannot own? Ben Franklin warned us about this whole “giving up essential liberty for temporary safety” stuff. Furthermore, the Founding Fathers were very wary of standing armies. I highly doubt they would have supported agents of the state possessing weapons that private citizens could not.
 
And…I’m genuinely not seeing the flaw.

Malum in se vs malum prohibitum.

I could have 20 guillotines on my front lawn; what of it? This is not prohibited unless by statute (malum prohibitum-bad because it is forbidden).

If I drag a random pedestrian to one of them and lop his head off with it, I am guilty of murder (malum in se-bad in and of itself).

In any event the guillotine was uttery harmless (assuming not left in the “up” position lol) until I made it otherwise, so why ban guillotines when any use of them on a person is in and of itself illegal?

Not to deviate too much, but GW explicitly stated his mistrust of standing armies, a concern I happen to share.

Don’t get me started on our militarized “civilian” police.
  1. The flaw is that no citizen should have the right to possess nuclear weapons. Hell, it takes multiple approvals for the government to utilize those types of weapons, so we want to let one person have that on their own?
  2. Guillotines could be historical artifacts, etc. Let’s focus on the chemicals used in lethal injection. Should the average citizen have the right to possess deadly chemicals? And if you think they do, why is it necessary that they should? You keep talking about restrictions and whether they are evil by nature or evil by the sake of being prohibited, but you are missing the common sense “WHY” portion, and that’s why gun control debates with people like you who don’t ask or answer the ‘why’ is pointless.
  3. Distrusting standing armies makes sense if you believe a group of untrained, unorganized citizens could band together and defend our country from attack. There is a huge target on America’s back, and I’m glad we have troops, domestic and abroad, prepared to respond when danger comes. Heck, even the Vatican has a standing army (Go Swiss Guard! And yes, this is a joke, I fully acknowledge the Swiss Guard are not a ‘standing army’ but rather a protective service).
 
When my weapons are in my own dwelling and paid for with my own money I would think a so-called “free” society would wish to respect my right to handle my own private property.

The price tag, scarce ammo, and poor mobility of a howitzer makes that kind of illogical.

Plus they’re crew operated.
But you are still avoiding the point that someone could legally own one, slap it on a truck, drive it somewhere, and raise Hell. Unlikely, certainly, but this is the logical extension of the argument, so please address whether you think an ordinary citizen should be able to own something this powerful used for maximizing casualties?
 
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