Arapahoe HS Shooting

[Cricket2]

I think it is reasonable to ask if we are to access a poster’s comments and whether or not we should take that person seriously in the future. For example, I followed up on your comments about ADHD and kids being disrespectful, etc, but you didn’t respond.

I don’t sit a the computer all day. I have to care for an ailing sister, had my father in the hospital the other day, and several other demands. I scan through most posts briefly and at random. If I catch one to respond to I will, but I don’t fixate on it.

Just this evening I have over 30 emails to respond too and not all of them have to do with the CF. Keep checking though, I might come across your post and respond if the chance comes up. But basically I think ADHD is over diagnosed. I have seen the “meds” for this destroy too many kids, versus help them.

 

[Crossbones]

An educational background is not needed. However it was in genetics and non-profit management. I worked with the disabled for 15 years as well.

What is needed is some darn common sense. My sister worked on ranches for over 25 years in four different states. The folks on these ranches, the workers and families, didn’t even know what Attention Deficite Disorders were until she told them. They scoffed at the notion. You see, by the time most of those kids are 2 years old they are learning to rope cattle and sheep, rounding up sheep and hogs for games and learning to ride and care for horses, etc. If you don’t pay attention to what is going on around you, at all times you can land up kicked in the head by an animal, ran over by a tractor or stampeded. The adults know and the kids do. They don’t have time to “Not be able to pay attention, sit still, or shush when told to do so.”

If a child is not expected to focus, made to pay attention, or sit still or have the patience to take their time doing something they won’t do it. My expectation that this is most of what is going on. Sure there are those who truly have a problem, but a truly think it is less than proclaimed.

Ok, so you don’t have any background in education and scoff at the notion because of an incredibly small subset of data (your sister hasn’t seen it). That’s all I need to know. Thank you for your response.

 

[Crossbones]

I don’t sit a the computer all day. I have to care for an ailing sister, had my father in the hospital the other day, and several other demands. I scan through most posts briefly and at random. If I catch one to respond to I will, but I don’t fixate on it.

Just this evening I have over 30 emails to respond too and not all of them have to do with the CF. Keep checking though, I might come across your post and respond if the chance comes up. But basically I think ADHD is over diagnosed. I have seen the “meds” for this destroy too many kids, versus help them.

I didn’t expect an immediate response, so I’m sorry I gave that impression. But now I am confused. On one hand, you are saying that you determine ADHD doesn’t exist because your sister hasn’t seen it in the kids she’s worked with on ranches. On the other hand, you are saying that you’ve seen ‘meds’ destroy kids’ lives.

The first case is an incredibly small data set, so I have trouble taking it seriously as a way to judge if or if not this exists. The second case begs the question on how often you’ve seen it and asks for specific examples. Could you please address the second issue?

 

[Crossbones]

-No you can’t yell “Fire!” in a crowded theater, but you also don’t have to pay a tax/fee every time you use your right to free speech in order to pay the expenses of policing those who abuse free speech.

-State issued ID’s for voting are free and are in line with the requirement to register to vote. Those programs that require one to pay a fee for said ID have actually been struck down as unconstitutional. Hardly comparable.

-Your example for something you can’t do because of freedom of religion is abusing children? Um…ok. Mind telling me how you came to the conclusion that this was a good example to use?

-You do understand that currently people who own land have to pay for schools regardless if they have children attending or not? I mean if you are going to get all hot and bothered over non-gun owners having to pay for upgraded security at schools you must be climbing the walls about people paying for schools they aren’t using.

-Lastly, here’s a list of activities your line of thinking would require law abiding citizens to pay an additional fee/tax to engage in- driving (speeders, drunk driving, car theft), internet usage (fraud, identity theft, internet crime), taking legal medications (abuse of legal medications is quickly becoming the biggest drug problem), attending a sports event (riots, vandalism, petty crime), flying (security concerns, smuggling), and breathing (air pollution). Might as well hand over your entire check to the government (additional fees will apply due to check fraud crimes).

State ID causes voters to need to make trips to a state ID issuing stations. For the elderly or the very busy, this can be a major inconvenience. It is the equivalent of a poll tax. So, if requiring state issued IDs is ok, then I am alright with a tax on gun owners.

The religious freedom thing: I was think of Warren Jeffs and his Mormon cult. Don’t know why, but that came to mind. It didn’t occur to me that someone might equate it to the scandals of Catholic priests until now. Basically, under the guise of religion, Warren told young girls they needed to marry and consummate their marriage. This was determined to be a crime. Any Catholic priests that abused children did not do it under the guise of freedom of religion.

Many people on this website regularly say that any taxation is taking away their property. I appreciate your clear distinguish on the 5th amendment and will use it in the future. I just see no reason for me to pay to protect children when I, as a non gun owner, am not a threat (either though myself or the ability of someone to get ahold of any weapons I might have because I don’t secure them properly).

I’m pretty sure that most of the things you listed are heavily taxed. Gasoline (needed for driving) is heavily taxed and, as a car owner, I am required to hold insurance at a particular minimum level determined by my state. Alcohol has additional taxes, so does flying. Companies are required to maintain a level of air pollution or face additional taxes and/or fines and new cars have certain pollution requirements. That’s 3/5th of your examples, so they are not good examples of why gun owners cannot be taxed in some way to pay for the improvements needed to protect children in our schools.

 

[Crossbones]

Well let’s start charging more on the sale of alcohol - then, the majority of people who responsibly consume (or, at the very least, know not to drive when consuming too much) can pay for the damage done by drunk drivers when they crash their cars, requiring responses by police, fire, and EMT’s, not to mention the damage done to the road, any potential barriers (i.e. guard rails), the environment (maybe they crashed into a tree?), the court costs associated with trial for the drunk driving, etc…

If you applied your logic, you could literally add taxes to almost any activity you do if there is a certain frequency (pretty low if it is total school shootings a year out of the number of schools in the USA) that causes any sort of damages, additional precautions, or any ‘undue’ costs that didn’t exist (or at least weren’t properly addressed and identified) prior to the current conditions.

Should gun owners also be taxed for the Secret Service, since pretty much every presidential assassination attempt has been with a gun?

Again, if anyone wants to talk about a change in enforcement, a change in laws, etc, I’m interested in participating as someone who believes in gun rights but will never own a gun. But this line of reasoning here doesn’t really seem to hold water, and it definitely doesn’t provide any sort of feasible solution for the issue of gun violence in America, specifically in schools.

I answered OldCatholicGuy’s post and most of the points I made in response to his are the same that I would say here, so I won’t repeat myself, but I didn’t want you to feel I’m ignoring your points. You bring up some good points, I just disagree with you.

 

[Mumbles140]

I’m pretty sure that most of the things you listed are heavily taxed. Gasoline (needed for driving) is heavily taxed and, as a car owner, I am required to hold insurance at a particular minimum level determined by my state. Alcohol has additional taxes, so does flying. Companies are required to maintain a level of air pollution or face additional taxes and/or fines and new cars have certain pollution requirements. That’s 3/5th of your examples, so they are not good examples of why gun owners cannot be taxed in some way to pay for the improvements needed to protect children in our schools.

But we aren’t just talking about things that are heavily taxed - forgive me if I’m wrong, but your reference about additional gun taxes for school safety implied ear-marking specific taxes for specific purposes (such as the 10% stadium tax we have in DC). Sure, there are plenty of regulatory taxes, etc, but I think the points made by me and OCG were working under the assumption (a dangerous game, I know) that these activities would incur additional taxes specifically for the safety measures.

Also, I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my post. You are absolutely correct - had you responded to mine and OCG’s, you surely would have been repeating yourself!

 

[Cricket2]

I didn’t expect an immediate response, so I’m sorry I gave that impression. But now I am confused. On one hand, you are saying that you determine ADHD doesn’t exist because your sister hasn’t seen it in the kids she’s worked with on ranches. On the other hand, you are saying that you’ve seen ‘meds’ destroy kids’ lives.

The first case is an incredibly small data set, so I have trouble taking it seriously as a way to judge if or if not this exists. The second case begs the question on how often you’ve seen it and asks for specific examples. Could you please address the second issue?

No need for confusion. I never said it didn’t exist. I said it is over diagnosed. In reference to my sisters experience: She lived in five different states, and worked on ranches in four of them. The people there thought the ADHD business was a load of nonsense. They never heard of it, and no one she worked with had a child with it.

The children on these ranches had to learn at an early age to focus and pay attention. If you don’t in that kind of environment you can get killed easily or maimed. I truly think that the biggest problem kids have today is too much automation and quick fixes. If they are not being entertained, if it doesn’t whistle, jingle, flash and yell they can’t pay attention. What they are really lacking in a lot of cases is appropriate time and attention from a human being called mom and dad.

They are not taught how to wait, how to be still, how to be silent or how to put up with a little boredom. When we told our mom we were board she always had some chores for us, like ironing, dusting, raking the yard, sweeping the kitchen floor. Needless to say we kept ourselves busy and often did chores as our own way to keep from boredom.

We have had the diagnosis made in our extended family. Let’s just say the boy so diagnosed sure could pay attention when he was enjoying what he was doing, but not when the project at hand was of no interest to him. He managed to have enough ability to set up an electrical trap for someone to step in, but the next moment he couldn’t tie his shoes? He was given all the typical drugs and psychotherapy and basically a license to act like a fool. Now he is in jail because he learned nothing about self discipline.

I am not saying there is not some with the disorder, it is just over diagnosed.

 

[Crossbones]

But we aren’t just talking about things that are heavily taxed - forgive me if I’m wrong, but your reference about additional gun taxes for school safety implied ear-marking specific taxes for specific purposes (such as the 10% stadium tax we have in DC). Sure, there are plenty of regulatory taxes, etc, but I think the points made by me and OCG were working under the assumption (a dangerous game, I know) that these activities would incur additional taxes specifically for the safety measures.

Also, I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my post. You are absolutely correct - had you responded to mine and OCG’s, you surely would have been repeating yourself!

It isn’t uncommon for taxes to be targeted, but politicians are involved, so there’s the obvious trust issue. I understand the points, I just think my point is reasonable and fair. People can certainly disagree with me.

 

[Crossbones]

No need for confusion. I never said it didn’t exist. I said it is over diagnosed. In reference to my sisters experience: She lived in five different states, and worked on ranches in four of them. The people there thought the ADHD business was a load of nonsense. They never heard of it, and no one she worked with had a child with it.

The children on these ranches had to learn at an early age to focus and pay attention. If you don’t in that kind of environment you can get killed easily or maimed. I truly think that the biggest problem kids have today is too much automation and quick fixes. If they are not being entertained, if it doesn’t whistle, jingle, flash and yell they can’t pay attention. What they are really lacking in a lot of cases is appropriate time and attention from a human being called mom and dad.

They are not taught how to wait, how to be still, how to be silent or how to put up with a little boredom. When we told our mom we were board she always had some chores for us, like ironing, dusting, raking the yard, sweeping the kitchen floor. Needless to say we kept ourselves busy and often did chores as our own way to keep from boredom.

We have had the diagnosis made in our extended family. Let’s just say the boy so diagnosed sure could pay attention when he was enjoying what he was doing, but not when the project at hand was of no interest to him. He managed to have enough ability to set up an electrical trap for someone to step in, but the next moment he couldn’t tie his shoes? He was given all the typical drugs and psychotherapy and basically a license to act like a fool. Now he is in jail because he learned nothing about self discipline.

I am not saying there is not some with the disorder, it is just over diagnosed.

Well, that we can agree on. I do think it is a real issue (going back to the ‘bad’ kids from when I was growing up a long time ago), but I also think it is over-diagnosed, especially by upper-middle/upper class parents trying to gain a competitive edge for their children.

I have a member of my family that has issues similar to ADHD. My frustration comes from people who are just in denial that it is a real issue and chalk it up to bad behavior. This is particularly frustrating when it come from his teachers, who ignore the medical diagnosis made by professions who can describe the behavior and what is going through his head to a tee in favor of their ‘gut’ feeling and personal attitudes. I have no use for them.

 

[miguel]

Kids grow up in a culture where they’re told to accept baby killing. And people wonder why some of these kids are so violent. If baby killing’s OK, anything’s OK. As for the rest of us who are merely terrorized, the devil wants us to be terrorized. That’s his game. Baby killing is part of his game. Fear not brothers and sisters! “Yahweh is my shepherd, I lack nothing. In grassy meadows he lets me lie. By tranquil streams he leads me to restore my spirit. He guides me in paths of saving justice as befits his name. Even were I to walk in a ravine as dark as death I should fear no danger, for you are at my side. Your staff and your crook are there to soothe me. You prepare a table for me under the eyes of my enemies You anoint my head with oil, my cup brims over. Kindness and faithful love pursue me every day of my life. I make my home in the house of Yahweh for all time to come.” Thank you God for protecting my sweet daughter Emily who heard those shots go off. Let your healing come to Claire Davis and her family.

I was at Mass last night and was reminded to also offer prayers for Karl Pierson and his family. God Bless.

 

[Geist]

State ID causes voters to need to make trips to a state ID issuing stations. For the elderly or the very busy, this can be a major inconvenience. It is the equivalent of a poll tax.

Uh, they have to leave their house and go to a place to vote don’t they?

Are polling places equivalent to a poll tax?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

State ID causes voters to need to make trips to a state ID issuing stations. For the elderly or the very busy, this can be a major inconvenience. It is the equivalent of a poll tax. So, if requiring state issued IDs is ok, then I am alright with a tax on gun owners.
The SC and various state SCs have determined otherwise in regards to state issued IDs being the equivalent to the poll tax.

The religious freedom thing: I was think of Warren Jeffs and his Mormon cult. Don’t know why, but that came to mind. It didn’t occur to me that someone might equate it to the scandals of Catholic priests until now. Basically, under the guise of religion, Warren told young girls they needed to marry and consummate their marriage. This was determined to be a crime. Any Catholic priests that abused children did not do it under the guise of freedom of religion.
None of which has anything to do with this discussion concerning your poorly thought out idea of placing a special tax/fee on gun owners.

Many people on this website regularly say that any taxation is taking away their property. I appreciate your clear distinguish on the 5th amendment and will use it in the future. I just see no reason for me to pay to protect children when I, as a non gun owner, am not a threat (either though myself or the ability of someone to get ahold of any weapons I might have because I don’t secure them properly).
And here is the actual truth of your argument. You view people who own firearms as a threat and that those who own firearms have to somehow be punished for owning them. You want to know the real “threat?” It’s not gun owners. It’s non-gun owners. Look at the crime stats. Most violent crimes don’t involve firearms. They involve the use of the body, an edged weapon, or a blunt weapon. Of course I can expect you to fully support non-gun owners paying a lot more than gun owners right? After all, why should gun owners (who according to stats are safer and less violent then non-gun owners) pay for your fellow non-gun owners crimes.

I’m pretty sure that most of the things you listed are heavily taxed. Gasoline (needed for driving) is heavily taxed and, as a car owner, I am required to hold insurance at a particular minimum level determined by my state. Alcohol has additional taxes, so does flying. Companies are required to maintain a level of air pollution or face additional taxes and/or fines and new cars have certain pollution requirements. That’s 3/5th of your examples, so they are not good examples of why gun owners cannot be taxed in some way to pay for the improvements needed to protect children in our schools.
-Small problem with your car insurance. Owning a car and driving aren’t rights, let alone rights that have their own amendment.
-Taxation on gasoline isn’t for the sole/specific purpose of managing crimes/accidents involving cars.
-Same goes for alcohol (the increased taxation on alcohol is because it’s a “sin product” that the government early on figured it could tax at a higher rate) and air travel.
-If 3/5ths of my examples are poor, none of yours or your responses have actually countered any of them. Your big push seems to be to protect the children. Fine, put the tax on people with kids. After all, why should non-parents pay for the protection of other people’s kids.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Uh, they have to leave their house and go to a place to vote don’t they?

Are polling places equivalent to a poll tax?

The lengths people will go to not admit they’ve dug themselves into a very deep hole.

 

[Holly3278]

This is so sad. There is a prayer request thread going on in the prayer intentions forum for the girl who was shot and is in critical condition. I haven’t heard any updates about her but I hope she is doing better. Please keep her in your prayers.

 

[starshiptrooper]

Oh, I can defend myself just fine, thank you. But I have several children that attends different schools. So, what’s your solution to that?

Push for armed teachers in the schools. At the end of the day though, those are your kids we are talking about. It is your responsibility to protect them, not mine.

 

[Cricket2]

Uh, they have to leave their house and go to a place to vote don’t they?

Are polling places equivalent to a poll tax?

Actually people don’t have to leave their house to vote, they can use absentee ballots. There has been too much effort to stop people from voting, for a lot of bogus reasons. I have gotten to the place that I think everyone should be allowed to vote if they live in this country LEGALLY. I had to wait until I got my citizenship, and at the time that was fine.

Now, I am not so sure. I could be very wrong and can live with it if folks think so. I do know we have to be really careful about taking that privilege away, and today I have not seen the appropriate approach or caution being used.

 

[Coatimundi]

This is so sad. There is a prayer request thread going on in the prayer intentions forum for the girl who was shot and is in critical condition. I haven’t heard any updates about her but I hope she is doing better.

This is what her family posted yesterday on the Facebook page for the Littleton Adventist Hospital:

Claire remains in critical condition. She is stable, but is in a coma. The first responders got Claire to the right place, at the right time, and the doctors and hospital staff are doing a wonderful job taking care of her. We appreciate your continued good thoughts and prayers, and will provide updates as her condition improves. We again ask that you respect our wishes for privacy, and refrain from contacting us, our extended family, or Claire’s friends and schoolmates, as we want to ensure that only accurate information about Claire is shared. Thank you for your continuing thoughts and prayers for Claire.
thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/arapahoe-high-school-shooting-claire-davis-is-in-a-coma-in-critical-but-stable-condition

Perhaps the family will continue to provide updates via that Facebook page?

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Actually people don’t have to leave their house to vote, they can use absentee ballots. There has been too much effort to stop people from voting, for a lot of bogus reasons. I have gotten to the place that I think everyone should be allowed to vote if they live in this country LEGALLY. I had to wait until I got my citizenship, and at the time that was fine.

Now, I am not so sure. I could be very wrong and can live with it if folks think so. I do know we have to be really careful about taking that privilege away, and today I have not seen the appropriate approach or caution being used.

Business X offers its employees a discount for items bought at its stores. I’m not an employee of Business X, have never been an employee, don’t ever plan to be an employee, haven’t even bothered to fill out the paperwork to apply for a job at Business X; but I do legally shop there on a regular basis. Does Business X owe me something it has reserved for its employees simply because I don’t break the law when shopping at its stores?

The legal status of a non-citizen has nothing to do with his/her right to vote. Citizenship does (and, this applies to citizens as well, age, mental capacity, and criminal record). A legal non-citizen has the same “right” to vote as an illegal non-citizen, underage citizen, mentally disabled citizen (I believe its based on a legal standard of mental capacity versus a medical standard), and a citizen who is a felon, namely no “right” to vote.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

It isn’t uncommon for taxes to be targeted, but politicians are involved, so there’s the obvious trust issue. I understand the points, I just think my point is reasonable and fair. People can certainly disagree with me.

Can’t trust politicians? I guess we need to start taxing people for participating in the political system in order to pay for the costs of making sure elections are fair, politicians are prosecuted for abuse of office, corruption, etc, etc. Shouldn’t be a real issue since you don’t have to exercise your right to vote and people who decide not to take part in the political process shouldn’t have to be forced to pay for the mistakes of those who do.

 

[Crossbones]

State ID causes voters to need to make trips to a state ID issuing stations. For the elderly or the very busy, this can be a major inconvenience. It is the equivalent of a poll tax. So, if requiring state issued IDs is ok, then I am alright with a tax on gun owners.
The SC and various state SCs have determined otherwise in regards to state issued IDs being the equivalent to the poll tax.

So, what the SC says is good to go? Well, I’ll stop wasting my time with Roe v. Wade then.

The religious freedom thing: I was think of Warren Jeffs and his Mormon cult. Don’t know why, but that came to mind. It didn’t occur to me that someone might equate it to the scandals of Catholic priests until now. Basically, under the guise of religion, Warren told young girls they needed to marry and consummate their marriage. This was determined to be a crime. Any Catholic priests that abused children did not do it under the guise of freedom of religion.
None of which has anything to do with this discussion concerning your poorly thought out idea of placing a special tax/fee on gun owners.

It has to do with rights being restricted, which is a large point of my argument and a counter to your “religious freedom” argument.

Many people on this website regularly say that any taxation is taking away their property. I appreciate your clear distinguish on the 5th amendment and will use it in the future. I just see no reason for me to pay to protect children when I, as a non gun owner, am not a threat (either though myself or the ability of someone to get ahold of any weapons I might have because I don’t secure them properly).
And here is the actual truth of your argument. You view people who own firearms as a threat and that those who own firearms have to somehow be punished for owning them. You want to know the real “threat?” It’s not gun owners. It’s non-gun owners. Look at the crime stats. Most violent crimes don’t involve firearms. They involve the use of the body, an edged weapon, or a blunt weapon. Of course I can expect you to fully support non-gun owners paying a lot more than gun owners right? After all, why should gun owners (who according to stats are safer and less violent then non-gun owners) pay for your fellow non-gun owners crimes.

I don’t view gunowners as a threat; just with great freedom comes great responsibility. If you are going to have weapons that can kill 30 kids in a few minutes, call me crazy, but I think you should secure those weapons properly from your mentally ill child. If you can’t be counted on doing so, then it becomes necessary for the government to take precautions and those precautions cost money. I mean, you can say what you want about knifes, whatever, but Newtown doesn’t happen if that kid shows up with a butcher knife. Out of 12664 murders in the US in 2011, 8583 (or 67%) were with firearms.

Now, you can say, as you do below that I should pay for that, after all, I have kids. And that’s great. What I really appreciate is how quickly these arguments degenerate into why you should have all the rights and I should burden all the costs of your rights.

I’m pretty sure that most of the things you listed are heavily taxed. Gasoline (needed for driving) is heavily taxed and, as a car owner, I am required to hold insurance at a particular minimum level determined by my state. Alcohol has additional taxes, so does flying. Companies are required to maintain a level of air pollution or face additional taxes and/or fines and new cars have certain pollution requirements. That’s 3/5th of your examples, so they are not good examples of why gun owners cannot be taxed in some way to pay for the improvements needed to protect children in our schools.
-Small problem with your car insurance. Owning a car and driving aren’t rights, let alone rights that have their own amendment.
-Taxation on gasoline isn’t for the sole/specific purpose of managing crimes/accidents involving cars.
-Same goes for alcohol (the increased taxation on alcohol is because it’s a “sin product” that the government early on figured it could tax at a higher rate) and air travel.
-If 3/5ths of my examples are poor, none of yours or your responses have actually countered any of them. Your big push seems to be to protect the children. Fine, put the tax on people with kids. After all, why should non-parents pay for the protection of other people’s kids.

There are restrictions of rights and there are taxes that are targeted to pay for certain items. Let’s be clear; these were YOUR examples that I was addressing. You brought them up; I addressed them down and now you say that my examples are poor, when they are in fact your examples.