Archbishop Chaput: Kasper proposal is 'emotive' [CC]

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Archbishop Charles Chaput said in an interview with John Allen that he has been frustrated by the lack of “theological content” in Cardinal Walter Kasper’s proposal to …

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Catholic_Press said:
Archbishop Charles Chaput said in an interview with John Allen that he has been frustrated by the lack of “theological content” in Cardinal Walter Kasper’s proposal to …

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From what I can see from the debates here, the supporter’s Theology is based on ‘Mercy’ and ‘Primacy of Conscience’

The detractor’s Theology is based on the words of Jesus and St. Paul.
 
SWolf said:
From what I can see from the debates here, the supporter’s Theology is based on ‘Mercy’ and ‘Primacy of Conscience’

The detractor’s Theology is based on the words of Jesus and St. Paul.
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I think both Jesus and St. Paul taught mercy and conscience as well.
 
gilliam said:
I think both Jesus and St. Paul taught mercy and conscience as well.
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Except Jesus specifically talked about remarriage being adultery, and St. Paul specifically talked about receiving communion unworthily. Mercy and Conscience did not enter those discussions, especially not in the form debated on this forum.
 
SWolf said:
Except Jesus specifically talked about remarriage being adultery, and St. Paul specifically talked about receiving communion unworthily. Mercy and Conscience did not enter those discussions, especially not in the form debated on this forum.
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Oh but Jesus did teach about mercy and conscious when the crowd wanted to stone the adulterous. He also taught us about the Internal Forum: "They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. Straightening up, Jesus said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.”…John 8:11
 
gilliam said:
Oh but Jesus did teach about mercy and conscious when the crowd wanted to stone the adulterous. He also taught us about the Internal Forum …
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Oh no, are we going to reinvent that wheel, too?

Dan
 
I think Chaput meant Kasper simply likes to use emojis in his writings.
 
The small group reports from this the third and final week are HERE.

There were 13 small groups in five languages.

Regarding the Kasperite Proposal (to allow civilly divorced and remarried Catholics to go to confession and Holy Communion without requiring of them sexual continence), the breakdown is more or less as follows:
  • 4 groups in favor of Kasperitism (of which, 2 groups want the matter decided in the internal forum, i.e., by the penitent, but in conversation with a priest in Confession).
  • 1 group sort of in favor of Kaspertism
  • 3 groups opposed to Kaspertism
  • 1 group divided on Kasperism
  • 1 group with no recommendation on Kaspertism
  • 1 group asking Pope to establish a commission to study the Kasper Proposal
  • 2 groups asking the Pope himself to decide about the Kasper Proposal.
So,*the Kasper Proposal has not been completely defeated.

Today (Wednesday) and tomorrow the commission appointed by the Pope will draft a Final Report.

On Friday the draft will be discussed by the Synod Fathers, and amendments will be suggested.

On Saturday the revised draft will be voted on. * (So, they say.)

That product, the Report,*goes to the Pope. Hecan decide whether to make the Report public or not. The Pope will decide if he is going to issue a document about the questions, and if so what kind of document and with what authority.

wdtprs.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/icons/facebook.pngwdtprs.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/icons/email.pngwdtprs.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/icons/pinterest.pngwdtprs.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/icons/gmail.pngShare/Bookmark

Full entry…
 
gilliam said:
I think both Jesus and St. Paul taught mercy and conscience as well.
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I would be interested in how you believe Jesus “taught conscience”.

I see Jesus exhorting a well formed conscience in his appeals “to see…to hear…you have heard it said…from the beginng…etc…” He exhorts us to be open to what is revealed by God.
 
clem456 said:
I would be interested in how you believe Jesus “taught conscience”.

I see Jesus exhorting a well formed conscience in his appeals “to see…to hear…you have heard it said…from the beginng…etc…” He exhorts us to be open to what is revealed by God.
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See my post above. Jesus asked the crowd to search their own conscience and he without sin cast the first stone. I think that is the Internal Forum in action.
 
gilliam said:
See my post above. Jesus asked the crowd to search their own conscience and he without sin cast the first stone. I think that is the Internal Forum in action.
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There is such a confusion of terms and concepts that I truly do not know how to respond.

I was merely interested in how you believed Jesus “taught conscience”.
 
gilliam said:
Oh but Jesus did teach about mercy and conscious when the crowd wanted to stone the adulterous. He also taught us about the Internal Forum: "They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground. But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground. When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. Straightening up, Jesus said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.”…John 8:11
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Thank you for this. I never thought about it like that before.
 
Catholic_Opinion said:
The small group reports from this the third and final week are HERE.

There were 13 small groups in five languages.

Regarding the Kasperite Proposal (to allow civilly divorced and remarried Catholics to go to confession and Holy Communion without requiring of them sexual continence), the breakdown is more or less as follows:
  • 4 groups in favor of Kasperitism (of which, 2 groups want the matter decided in the internal forum, i.e., by the penitent, but in conversation with a priest in Confession).
  • 1 group sort of in favor of Kaspertism
  • 3 groups opposed to Kaspertism
  • 1 group divided on Kasperism
  • 1 group with no recommendation on Kaspertism
  • 1 group asking Pope to establish a commission to study the Kasper Proposal
  • 2 groups asking the Pope himself to decide about the Kasper Proposal.
So,*the Kasper Proposal has not been completely defeated.

Today (Wednesday) and tomorrow the commission appointed by the Pope will draft a Final Report.

On Friday the draft will be discussed by the Synod Fathers, and amendments will be suggested.

On Saturday the revised draft will be voted on. * (So, they say.)

That product, the Report,*goes to the Pope. Hecan decide whether to make the Report public or not. The Pope will decide if he is going to issue a document about the questions, and if so what kind of document and with what authority.

wdtprs.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/icons/facebook.pngwdtprs.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/icons/email.pngwdtprs.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/icons/pinterest.pngwdtprs.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/add-to-any/icons/gmail.pngShare/Bookmark

Full entry…
Click to expand...
Somehow I imagine Jesus being approached by a representative, saying, “Well, we have been discussing what to do about your teachings on divorce, and here are the recommendations so far.”
 
SWolf said:
Except Jesus specifically talked about remarriage being adultery, and St. Paul specifically talked about receiving communion unworthily. Mercy and Conscience did not enter those discussions, especially not in the form debated on this forum.
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Actually, St Paul’s words are certainly acts of Mercy. It is a warning against the damage to the soul that an unworthy reception of Holy Communion entails.
 
Here is an informative article regarding the informal forum from 2005, excerpt:
Internal forum solution instead of an annulment?
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Q: I’ve heard that instead of receiving an annulment, there’s an “internal forum solution” that allows re-married Catholics to continue receiving the Sacraments without having to get an annulment of their prior marriage(s). Is this true?
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Yes, and no. There is an internal forum solution, but it is probably not what you might think it is.
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Firstly, the “external forum” is the annulment process in this case. The “internal forum” is the confessional process. The internal forum cannot oppose canon law or the teachings of the magisterium. Nor can the internal forum oppose a ruling or judgment of the external forum.
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So why do some Catholics, including many priests, counsel other Catholics of this supposed “internal forum” solution for re-married Catholics? Because the Catholic Church has taught that there exists an internal forum solution. But that solution is very specific, and has conditions.
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Under the papacy of Pope Paul VI, the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith’s document of April 11, 1973, which addressed the Diocesan Bishops and censured the admittance of invalidly married persons to the sacraments, stated in the final paragraph:
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“With regard to admission to the sacraments, the local ordinaries will also please, on the one hand, stress the observance of the current discipline of the church while, on the other hand, take care that pastors of souls follow up with particular solicitude those who are living in an irregular union and, in addition to other correct means, use the approved practice of the Church in the internal forum.”
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Not any “internal forum solution” will due. It is to be the “approved practice of the Church.” So, what is the approved “internal forum” practice?
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On March 21, 1975, the same Sacred Congregation explained the phrase “the approved practice of the Church in the internal forum” in the following way:
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“The couples may be allowed to receive the sacraments on two conditions, that they try to live according to the demands of Christian moral principles and that they receive the sacraments in churches in which they are not known so that they will not create any scandal.”
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Now, if you have not been granted an annulment, then you are presumed to be still married to another. Canon 1085 §2 states: “Even if the prior marriage is invalid or dissolved for any reason, it is not on that account permitted to contract another before the nullity or dissolution of the prior marriage is established legitimately and certainly.” Even if one is subjectively certain of the invalidity of their prior marriage, they may not licitly re-marry without an annulment. A Catholic who married illicitly may not receive of the Sacraments. For example, Catholics in merely civil marriages, have married illicitly according to canon law. Even if this is their first marriage, if it is merely civil, they cannot be licitly admitted to the Sacraments until they “regularize their situation in the light of Christian principle” (see Familiaris Consortio , par. 82). So, to live in accord with Christian moral principles has a very specific meaning, which includes submitting to Catholic canon law.
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Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger states, as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church Concerning the Reception of Holy Communion by the Divorced and Remarried Members of the Faithful, 14 Sep 1994 vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_14091994_rec-holy-comm-by-divorced_en.html
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“The faithful who persist in such a situation [divorced and remarried, without annulment] may receive Holy Communion only after obtaining sacramental absolution [internal forum], which may be given only “to those who, repenting of having broken the sign of the Covenant and of fidelity to Christ, are sincerely ready to undertake a way of life that is no longer in contradiction to the indissolubility of marriage. This means, in practice, that when for serious reasons, for example, for the children’s upbringing, a man and a woman cannot satisfy the obligation to separate, they 'take on themselves the duty to live in complete continence, that is, by abstinence from the acts proper to married couples’”(8). In such a case they may receive Holy Communion as long as they respect the obligation to avoid giving scandal.”
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This is in accord with, and in fact quotes from Pope John Paul II’s 1982 Apostolic Exhortation Familiaris Consortio, which states:
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“Reconciliation in the sacrament of Penance which would open the way to the Eucharist [internal forum solution], can only be granted to those who, repenting of having broken the sign of the Covenant and of fidelity to Christ, are sincerely ready to undertake a way of life that is no longer in contradiction to the indissolubility of marriage. This means, in practice, that when, for serious reasons, such as for example the children’s upbringing, a man and a woman cannot satisfy the obligation to separate, they "take on themselves the duty to live in complete continence, that is, by abstinence from the acts proper to married couples.”
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If someone, even a priest, suggests an “internal forum solution” other than that described by the magisterial teachings above, their solution is invalid.
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itsjustdave1988.blogspot.co.uk/2005/05/internal-forum-solution-instead-of.html?m=1
 
JimG said:
Somehow I imagine Jesus being approached by a representative, saying, “Well, we have been discussing what to do about your teachings on divorce, and here are the recommendations so far.”
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That would probably be followed by Jesus taking out a whip and turning over some tables.
 
Michael1978 said:
That would probably be followed by Jesus taking out a whip and turning over some tables.
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Interesting how he treated the adulterous being persecuted by the Pharisees differently than the money lenders who were approved by the very same Pharisee class? … But the Pharisees and money lenders were following the letter of the law at the time.

Interesting, isn’t it? Food for meditation I think.
 
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