Granted I’m not a practicing Catholic, but I have a fondness for Pope Francis and if someone believes he is the Vicar of Christ, why would it be scary if he is meeting people where they are, as Blessedwithfive said he is doing? Do you truly believe the Vicar of Christ would mislead people as to what Christ would permit? Luigi says you need to get it right. As far as we know maybe the Pope today is on the path to doing that.
As has been clearly demonstrated by the conflict, confusion, contradictory interpretations, etc., there is no up side to NOT responding to the dubia. Whether certain cardinals or bishops claim that the pope is exercising patience and reserve seems somewhat untenable. There seems only to be two reasons to avoid responding to the dubia: either the pope realizes that he is mistaken and that there is no way to justify the confusion and ambiguous teaching that he has promulgated and needs to figure out a gracious way to walk it back, or he truly believes this ‘progressive’ teaching to be the truth but cannot figure out a way to demonstrate this without trampling on top of already established teaching as put forth by VS, FC, and elsewhere.
It would seem that if the pope is on the path to getting it right, then this would imply that past popes and magisterial documents were clearly in the wrong precisely because they were so clear and unambiguous as to the impossibility of what is being proposed now. I think Pope Francis knows this which is why he is being so unclear or vague… in other words, if he can overturn or override a past papal teaching, then a future pope could easily override Pope Francis’ teaching because a precedent will now have been set, thus undoing any reform that he wished to implement.Granted I’m not a practicing Catholic, but I have a fondness for Pope Francis and if someone believes he is the Vicar of Christ, why would it be scary if he is meeting people where they are, as Blessedwithfive said he is doing? Do you truly believe the Vicar of Christ would mislead people as to what Christ would permit? Luigi says you need to get it right. As far as we know maybe the Pope today is on the path to doing that.
And that’s not even the worst part!
The thing that has informed orthodox believers jittery is the fact that if the pope formally contradicts his predecessors and the magisterium, the church’s infallibility claims will fall. Once they do, absolutely no part of the faith is beyond question, down to the very creed and even the canon of scripture!
As another poster put it in another thread, we go from.Catholics to Unitarians in 5 seconds! That, my friends, is what the hullabaloo is all about. The Catholic religion is essentially booby-trapped. You can’t untie one thread in it without loosening the entire sweater. You can’t knock down one wall without collapsing the entire building.Granted I’m not a practicing Catholic, but I have a fondness for Pope Francis and if someone believes he is the Vicar of Christ, why would it be scary if he is meeting people where they are, as Blessedwithfive said he is doing? Do you truly believe the Vicar of Christ would mislead people as to what Christ would permit? Luigi says you need to get it right. As far as we know maybe the Pope today is on the path to doing that.
There are very few occasions in the gospels where Christ was so straightforward as when He spoke on the permanency of marriage. What Pope Francis is insinuating goes against traditional Church teaching and against what Popes John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI so succinctly surmised. I think irenaeus1 sums it up very well when he says "either the pope realizes that he is mistaken and that there is no way to justify the confusion and ambiguous teaching that he has promulgated and needs to figure out a gracious way to walk it back, or he truly believes this ‘progressive’ teaching to be the truth but cannot figure out a way to demonstrate this without trampling on top of already established teaching as put forth by VS, FC, and elsewhere.Do you truly believe the Vicar of Christ would mislead people as to what Christ would permit? Luigi says you need to get it right. As far as we know maybe the Pope today is on the path to doing that.
:clapping::clapping::clapping:And that’s not even the worst part!
The Catholic religion is essentially booby-trapped. You can’t untie one thread in it without loosening the entire sweater. You can’t knock down one wall without collapsing the entire building.
Those whose entire faith rests on the gamble that the building actually IS THE building designed and built by God to withstand all earthquakes and intruders and is therefore beyond collapse would OF COURSE find an attempt by some abetted by the chief custodian to knock down one of the walls of the building they have moved into and invested all their life savings in!
Hear, Hear! That’s why we must pray and ask Christ to provide for the defense of the Church and for the defense of the faith. We must have faith that Christ will defend his church from errors and lies.And that’s not even the worst part!
The Catholic religion is essentially booby-trapped. You can’t untie one thread in it without loosening the entire sweater. You can’t knock down one wall without collapsing the entire building.
Those whose entire faith rests on the gamble that the building actually IS the building designed and built by God himself to withstand all earthquakes and intruders and on the building therefore being beyond collapse would OF COURSE find alarming an attempt by some custodians, abetted by the chief custodian, to knock down one of the walls of the building they have moved into and invested all their life savings in!
I totally get that everything is interwoven. I understand and actually like rules doctrine. What I am saying is that our Pope is applying MERCY to the situation. And MERCY by definition doesn’t follow rules or doctrine. It is MERCY. Giving something that is undeserved. Here is the definition from the internet. Mercy–compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one’s power to punish or harm.And that’s not even the worst part!
The Catholic religion is essentially booby-trapped. You can’t untie one thread in it without loosening the entire sweater. You can’t knock down one wall without collapsing the entire building.
Those whose entire faith rests on the gamble that the building actually IS the building designed and built by God himself to withstand all earthquakes and intruders and on the building therefore being beyond collapse would OF COURSE find alarming an attempt by some custodians, abetted by the chief custodian, to knock down one of the walls of the building they have moved into and invested all their life savings in!
But MERCY is applied when the evil and guilt of a situation are admitted. In this instance, it is often presented as though no guilt is incurred at all. In fact, we cannot even call it adultery, but merely a situation that is ‘irregular’ or less than ideal. If that is indeed the case, then admission to Holy Communion is not an act of mercy but rather an act of justice, is it not?
This is crazy talk. The kind of alarmist garbage perpetuated by paranoid trads knee deep in conspiracy theories.And that’s not even the worst part!
The Catholic religion is essentially booby-trapped. You can’t untie one thread in it without loosening the entire sweater. You can’t knock down one wall without collapsing the entire building.
Those whose entire faith rests on the gamble that the building actually IS the building designed and built by God himself to withstand all earthquakes and intruders and on the building therefore being beyond collapse would OF COURSE find alarming an attempt by some custodians, abetted by the chief custodian, to knock down one of the walls of the building they have moved into and invested all their life savings in!
Mercy can’t be earned. And I have yet to meet a Catholic that doesn’t know that divorce is wrong. And even that THEIR divorce was wrong. The Pope isn’t suggesting that people sleeping around should come to communion.
I’m not sure what you mean by trads (i.e., traditionalists), but as an orthodox believing Catholic, I am extremely alarmed. When cardinals are not in agreement on doctrinal issues and present opposing interpretations of this magnitude, when there is bishop against bishop… when bishops conferences oppose bishop conferences in issuing contradictory guidelines, how in the world are the faithful not to be alarmed? While the Church will survive and God will always have a remnant of faithful, I am very concerned regarding the collateral damage done in the meantime.
Typical trad response.
Who said anything about ‘earning’ mercy? You are confusing ‘earning’ with being properly disposed. Note that while God’s love is unconditional, and even God’s mercy and readiness to forgive is unconditional, the actual application of his mercy and forgiveness are NOT unconditional, but rather conditioned upon us having a godly sorrow that leads to repentance.
How is he not advocating this IF marriage is indeed indissoluble and he is allowing the divorced and civilly remarried to receive Holy Communion? Is not one of the parties validly married to the ‘first’ spouse, and if not living as brother and sister in their second union, then living in adultery (aka, sleeping around)? How else do you connect the dots?Yeah that’s right. That’s what he’s advocating.
I said IF… how else can you interpret this if the IF statement in #32 is true?Yeah that’s right. That’s what he’s advocating.
It’s been explained by other posters on this forum a million times. But that would interfere with your conspiratorial world view wouldn’t it? My place is not to correct people like you, I’ll pray for you since it appears you are very confused and anxious. Perhaps you should not worry about things you have no control over and concentrate on those things you do. Lent is a time of reflection. Reflect.
It has not been adequately explained. I have seen people perform all sorts of intellectual acrobatics in an attempt to square the circle that is the contradiction of a clear church teaching. And who are you to insist people follow your view when the HEAD OF THE CDF and many other bishops share the same view as Irenaeus1?
LOL, and who are you? A username on a dying forum.