Archbishop Chaput: Pope Francis cannot contradict John Paul II on Communion

[irishpatrick]

LOL, and who are you? A username on a dying forum.
I’ll stick with the real Catholic Church filled with real people trying live real lives.
If you trads want to fight windmills, feel free.

I don’t understand this bashing of “trads.” I really don’t. From a logical pov, considering the Catholic faith in its entirety, shouldn’t every Catholic be a “trad?”

The faith is founded upon Christ, and is handed down to us through the attaching of our faith to Christ and His revealed truths ((Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition)–every bit of that requires a conservative or traditional approach, or otherwise the faith will be wholly changed from what it was. Protestants tossed aside tradition and we see what happened.

 

[Tim_D]

LOL, and who are you? A username on a dying forum.
I’ll stick with the real Catholic Church filled with real people trying live real lives.
If you trads want to fight windmills, feel free.

And who are you? A new user hurling unfounded insults at people like ginny and ireneaus who are echoing the same questions and concerns that members of the Church hierarchy have asked and *cannot get a definitive answer from the Holy See. * If the answer were as simple and clear cut, then why does the pope not address it and clear the murky waters for all to see? The “real Catholic Church” has constantly and consistently defended the words of Christ Himself when He spoke on the permanency of marriage and the sin of divorce and remarriage. How this is a “trad” issue makes me believe that you know far less than what you claim.

 

[irenaeus1]

Typical trad response.
If you know so much better than Pope Francis, the Cardinals and the Bishops, why don’t you enter into seminary and start the process of changing the Church into your image?

Typical liberal progressive response.

How do you know that Archbishop Chaput, or Archbishop Sample, or Cardinal Mueller, or Bishop Schneider, or Cardinal Caffarra, or Cardinal Brandmuller, or the Canadian Bishops conference, or Cardinal Burke, or the Polish Bishops conference, or Archbishop Prendergast, and others don’t know better?

 

[Mongo]

I totally get that everything is interwoven. I understand and actually like rules doctrine. What I am saying is that our Pope is applying MERCY to the situation. And MERCY by definition doesn’t follow rules or doctrine. It is MERCY. Giving something that is undeserved. Here is the definition from the internet. Mercy–compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one’s power to punish or harm.

The church could continue to punish the divorced person, but she chooses to offer compassion.

The church isn’t punishing the divorced and remarried. They are having sex with someone other than their spouse, and consequently they aren’t supposed to recieve communion as long as they are doing that. It is the same as any other sin. If you have no intention to quit sinning, no matter what your sin is you aren’t supposed to receive communion. It isn’t punishment, it is for the good of your own soul. So no, he isn’t applying mercy.

 

[pnewton]

LOL, and who are you? A username on a dying forum.
I’ll stick with the real Catholic Church filled with real people trying live real lives.
If you trads want to fight windmills, feel free.

You might want to check the rules. I notice you are new here. Besides the obvious short-coming of engaging in name-calling and ad hominem argument, it is contrary to the rules of this board. This topic is hot enough with out all the labeling and battle lines.

I think it clear there is a difference of opinion on where teaching ends and discipline begins, even among bishops and theologians. I mean, should this be surprising. God has not called His church home so we know we are still in the trenches, even when it comes to doctrine, Through this, we may come to a new understanding of marriage.

 

[Thomas_White]

Typical trad response.
If you know so much better than Pope Francis, the Cardinals and the Bishops, why don’t you enter into seminary and start the process of changing the Church into your image?
Or is it better to be part of the “remnant” of “faithful” who know so much better than those who are charged with our souls.

What always amazes me about the “new trads” out there is very few of them are old enough to even remember what the Church looked like prior to Vatican 2. They have this embellished nostalgic fantasy in their heads that never existed. Many are converts from fundamentalist Christianity and gives them a new outlet for their anti-Catholicism. Years ago, they were a small group nobody paid much attention to. Now in the age of Trump and the internet they are gaining ground.
And that is very worrisome.

As someone who was raised in the pre-Vatican II Church, I find the term “trads” disparaging. Many of my generation (myself included) attended Catholic schools from the first grade through high school, attended a Tridentine Mass at the beginning of every school day, and our teachers were members of religious orders. Vatican II only occurred a few years later, and for us its implementation began when we were already adults. Those you refer to as “trads” were, or are, simply practicing the Catholicism in which they had been raised and the only Catholicism they had ever known. For them it was the Church, it with a 2000-year history, that suddenly began to change–and dramatically so. It is a bit much to expect these faithful Catholics to embrace certain changes that would have been absolutely unacceptable in the pre-Vatican II Church.

 

[MikeHammer]

As someone who was raised in the pre-Vatican II Church, I find the term “trads” disparaging. Many of my generation (myself included) attended Catholic schools from the first grade through high school, attended a Tridentine Mass at the beginning of every school day, and our teachers were members of religious orders. Vatican II only occurred a few years later, and for us its implementation began when we were already adults. Those you refer to as “trads” were, or are, simply practicing the Catholicism in which they had been raised and the only Catholicism they had ever known. For them it was the Church, it with a 2000-year history, that suddenly began to change–and dramatically so. It is a bit much to expect these faithful Catholics to embrace certain changes that would have been absolutely unacceptable in the pre-Vatican II Church.

And I should believe you, why…?
You’re a username on a dying forum that consistently attacks the Pope and the hierarchy of the Church.

 

[MikeHammer]

Typical liberal progressive response.

How do you know that Archbishop Chaput, or Archbishop Sample, or Cardinal Mueller, or Bishop Schneider, or Cardinal Caffarra, or Cardinal Brandmuller, or the Canadian Bishops conference, or Cardinal Burke, or the Polish Bishops conference, or Archbishop Prendergast, and others don’t know better?

I would rather listen to people who have the education, the experience, the spirituality, and the wisdom and not some username on a forum attacking Pope Francis.
Silly me.

 

[Thomas_White]

And I should believe you, why…?
You’re a username on a dying forum that consistently attacks the Pope and the hierarchy of the Church.

Really? Believe what you will and so shall I. I’ve never attacked the Pope on this forum or anywhere else. It’s better to try to understand the perspective of fellow Catholics rather than resorting to ad hominem comments. The disagreement concerning AL is extremely serious, and with my background and education I both know it and why it is so.

 

[MikeHammer]

Really? Believe what you will and so shall I. I’ve never attacked the Pope on this forum or anywhere else. It’s better to try to understand the perspective of fellow Catholics rather than resorting to ad hominem comments. The disagreement concerning AL is extremely serious, and with my background and education I both know it and why it is so.

If you are defending trads you have no credibility. That’s not “ad hominem” (BTW, who in the real world uses that term?), it’s just something you should expect when you post on a public forum.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

I would rather listen to people who have the education, the experience, the spirituality, and the wisdom and not some username on a forum attacking Pope Francis.
Silly me.

In which case feel free to find some other more agreeable (and non-dying) forum.

 

[MikeHammer]

In which case feel free to find some other more agreeable (and non-dying) forum.

So, if…

I would rather listen to people who have the education, the experience, the spirituality, and the wisdom and not some username on a forum attacking Pope Francis.

I should go elsewhere?
Someone has to defend the Church from trads.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

So, if…

I should go elsewhere?
Someone has to defend the Church from trads.

OK bro’, have it your way. Defending the Church on this forum when things go too far is the job of the Moderators. Ensuring that posters treat each other with a minimum of civility is also the job of the Moderators, as doubtless will soon become clear.

 

[pnewton]

If you are defending trads you have no credibility. That’s not “ad hominem” (BTW, who in the real world uses that term?), it’s just something you should expect when you post on a public forum.

Actually, it is an ad hominem, Consider this. Pope Francis is working with the SSPX to return to a ministerial function in the Church. Therefore, he is a defender of traditionalists. His actions with the SSPX do not detract from his authority. For my part, I do not like charity being denied people we disagree with. Those here that post are people, not usernames.

 

[Thomas_White]

So, if…

I should go elsewhere?
Someone has to defend the Church from trads.

Me thinks thou dost protest too much.

 

[Mongo]

If you are defending trads you have no credibility. That’s not “ad hominem” (BTW, who in the real world uses that term?), it’s just something you should expect when you post on a public forum.

With who? You? You have about ten posts so far, and nine of them are ad hominem posts. You don’t know whether any of the posters attends the TLM or not, and you call them all ‘trads’ because they disagree with you.

And yes, I would consider myself a ‘trad’. I am proud to uphold the faith of the fathers. I prefer the democracy of the dead over the democracy of the living. I don’t attend the TLM though.

 

[Mongo]

The pope needs to clarify AL even if it is just to appease certain bishops and faithful within the Church. He has a responsibility to them as much as to those in irregular situations. And there is a great deal of confusion over what is actually being taught, especially if someone like bishop Chaput thinks so. He isn’t exactly a renegade or ignorant bishop.

 

[LittleFlower378]

Here is the problem. I do not think the Pope has gone against doctrine here. The problem is there is such a fuss about this that other outlets whether they be the media or the internet, and now the Bishops are involved, it looks scandalous to our Holy Church. People can twist what some Bishops and even what the Pope said to their own agenda. But the problem is, if the Pope does give a clarification, what about all the other statements that people skew. It would go on and on. It’s up to the Bishops to clarify the Popes statements as well, so we The faithful who can’t pound through a long document like AL have a better understanding. If the Bishops don’t understand it, then the Pope should clarify it to them.

 

[Mongo]

Here is the problem. I do not think the Pope has gone against doctrine here. The problem is there is such a fuss about this that other outlets whether they be the media or the internet, and now the Bishops are involved, it looks scandalous to our Holy Church. People can twist what some Bishops and even what the Pope said to their own agenda. But the problem is, if the Pope does give a clarification, what about all the other statements that people skew. It would go on and on. It’s up to the Bishops to clarify the Popes statements as well, so we The faithful who can’t pound through a long document like AL have a better understanding. If the Bishops don’t understand it, then the Pope should clarify it to them.

Maybe the pope should clarify it to the bishops of Germany and other countries then, and they can clarify it through their implementation of AL. Make it clear that it is in line with FC and all other previous papal statements. He doesn’t have to say more than that, the bishops can do the rest if he makes clear to them that it must be implemented in line with tradition.

 

[LittleFlower378]

Maybe the pope should clarify it to the bishops of Germany and other countries then, and they can clarify it through their implementation of AL. Make it clear that it is in line with FC and all other previous papal statements. He doesn’t have to say more than that, the bishops can do the rest if he makes clear to them that it must be implemented in line with tradition.

Good point, it needs to be clear especially to those Bishops who have made statements that have appeared to twist or actually have twisted AL(I hope that’s not the case) to go against doctrine.