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Julia_Mae
Guest
I love Chaput.
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cerad2
Guest
Wonder if he will also have a chat with his god about infinite punishment for finite crimes?
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George_Stegmeir
Guest
I agree with the Archbishop. Theoretically the death penalty exists to show people what will happen to them if they commit murder; in other words, as a deterant. Unfortunately, because of societal influences, the death penalty is no longer feared by anyone who commits murder-either by those who commit a “crime of passion” , those who commit mass murder, or those who commit murder for hire.
Because of the modern application of law, from the time someone commits murder to the time they are convicted and executed, around 20 years has elapsed, and the horror of the original crime is all but forgotten. In addition, executions are done outside of the public eye, to spare the sensitive feelings of the population.
The last public execution in the US was in 1936…76 years ago.
IMO without the humiliation of being executed in public, the death penalty has no deterant effect. And, since the public would not stand for public execution, people who are convicted of willful murder should be given life at hard labor, without any possibility of parole. And they should be incarcerated without any of the creature comforts that we, in the US take for granted, like TV, reading material, and anything else that would be considered an amusement. Without such a penalty, there really is no deterant to Murder. In the US, if someone from the middle classes is arrested and charged he is penalized, even if he is deemed innocent, because he has to pay for his attorney-which ain’t cheap!
However, “street people” literally get away “with murder” because the state will pay for their legal help…and, if they are incarcerated, many times the quality of life “inside” with the various rehab and educational programs, and no hard labor, is better than what the miscreant has on the outside! So, apart from the loss of freedom, where is the punishment?
Because of the modern application of law, from the time someone commits murder to the time they are convicted and executed, around 20 years has elapsed, and the horror of the original crime is all but forgotten. In addition, executions are done outside of the public eye, to spare the sensitive feelings of the population.
The last public execution in the US was in 1936…76 years ago.
IMO without the humiliation of being executed in public, the death penalty has no deterant effect. And, since the public would not stand for public execution, people who are convicted of willful murder should be given life at hard labor, without any possibility of parole. And they should be incarcerated without any of the creature comforts that we, in the US take for granted, like TV, reading material, and anything else that would be considered an amusement. Without such a penalty, there really is no deterant to Murder. In the US, if someone from the middle classes is arrested and charged he is penalized, even if he is deemed innocent, because he has to pay for his attorney-which ain’t cheap!
However, “street people” literally get away “with murder” because the state will pay for their legal help…and, if they are incarcerated, many times the quality of life “inside” with the various rehab and educational programs, and no hard labor, is better than what the miscreant has on the outside! So, apart from the loss of freedom, where is the punishment?
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Usige
Guest
Me too. I had the pleasure of meeting him and hearing him speak many times when he was the Archbishop of Denver. He was not the type of Bishop where you were in the dark with what he taught that was for sure.
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triumphguy
Guest
I’m sure he does. And I’m sure that through the confessional he has lifted the burden of eternal fire from the shoulders of many a grave sinner.
Thanks for asking:thumbsup:
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Julia_Mae
Guest
I lived in Denver for quite a long time and used to go to Sunday evening Mass at the Cathedral. Chaput almost always presided, and he always stood in the door after Mass, greeting his parishioners.
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TheDoctor
Guest
Actually, you have that a tad wrong. A sin against an infinitely good God is an infinite sin. Since crime is a sin, you should properly be asking if the good Bishop has asked God to chat about infinite punishment for infinite crime but I am sure God and the Bishop will speak more of God’s infinite mercy for infinite crime.
I am not really sure though what your question has to do with the subject under discussion.
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Phaedra777
Guest
It is those who freely choose the finite crimes, knowing full well they were wrong, who choose for themselves the “infinite punishment”. Heaven is filled with souls who said, “THY will be done.” Hell is full of those souls who said, “MY will be done.”
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Phaedra777
Guest
You nailed it!
Yes indeed–God loves–and forgives–and welcomes–the repentant sinners.
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Ender
Guest
I think Archbishop Chaput is terrific but I disagree with him about capital punishment.
Ender
I disagree with him on this claim but that’s not the point. Deterrence is merely one of the valid objectives of punishment and a secondary one at that so even if capital punishment deterred no one that would mean nothing about whether it should be used.
Think about this argument in the context of 2000 years of Church teaching where she supported capital punishment. If “answering violence with violence” is wrong today then the Church has been wrong for millennia. Aside from this, it is unfortunate that the archbishop made this comparison. The solemn imposition of punishment - even capital punishment - bears no relation to the violence that was committed that led to it. Finally, death by lethal injection is about the least violent action one could imagine.
This is really an unfortunate statement because it is not what the Church teaches about either forgiveness or punishment.
Well, not exactly. Neither Scripture nor Catholic tradition imposed the restrictions the Catechism claims.
Ender
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InJesusItrust
Guest
If a prisoner is killed before he repents that is an infinite loss. To kill him, when there is an option to keep him alive as long as possible and the chance to escape from hell, is what would probably please Jesus. Remember the dying thief who was forgiven? He accepted God at the last few minutes of His life and was saved.
I disagree with not meeting violence with violence, because war is sometimes justified.
I disagree with not meeting violence with violence, because war is sometimes justified.
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Ender
Guest
The Church has never taken the position you describe.*“The fate of the wicked being open to conversion so long as they live does not preclude their being open also to the just punishment of death. Indeed the danger threatening the community from their life is greater and more certain than the good expected by their conversion. Besides, in the hour of death, they have every facility for turning to God by repentance. And if they are so obstinate that even in the hour of death their heart will not go back upon its wickedness, a fairly probable reckoning may be made that they never would have returned to a better mind.” *(Aquinas)
Ender
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InJesusItrust
Guest
If we *moderns" have secure prisons, killing them is not proportional to the threat that they pose to the community. In almost all cases the death penalty is not needed.
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JimG
Guest
I’m fine with ending capital punishment. If we do that, we should elso stop paroling danerous murderers. Yes multiple killers serving life sentence have been and are being paroled, and they do kill again.
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CaptFun
Guest
Some random thoughts with “bullets” (pardon the pun).
- Capital punishment is a knotty issue not easily answered quickly. Not like abortion.
- On one hand God says “Vengeance is mine …”. “Love your enemies” “Turn the other cheek”
- On the other hand (OTOH) “Mercy without justice is the mother of dissolution; (and) justice without mercy is cruelty.” - St. Thomas Aquinas
- Matt 18:8 “I tell you, he will see to it that** justice is done for them speedily.** But when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?” (What about the victims?)
- Murderers have capitally punished their victims. What is a just punishment? Some have murdered multiple people. And murder others in jail.
- In the US those undergoing capital punishment are told when it will happen and have access to Confession and the Sacraments if Catholic. In an Eternal sense this is an advantage. A sincere confession and doing their best to make it up to their victims might put the person on death row in less danger of being “caught sleeping” than others.
- The Old Testament recommended Capital Punishment for certain crimes and allowed for mercy and sanctuary too. The OT did not record much of it taking place though. Perhaps with the tough laws people were more law abiding and society was better.
- The much maligned “eye for an eye” instruction would seem to be “go no further than justice demands”.
- Is it my imagination or do many Catholics who feverishly preach an anti-Death Penalty gospel hold “pro-choice” views on abortion and justify them by this posture. “Many” not “all” of course.
- Is it JUST that (a convicted mass murderer I just thought of) gets shelter, food, medical care, and an exercise period until he dies at taxpayer expense … while the families of his victims get nothing? And non-criminals who are homeless get none of these things?
- Would it BE JUST if “those who oppose the death penalty” pay the extra taxes necessary to feed, clothe, warm, cool, medically care for and house with proper security (union scale workers with full benefits and generous lifetime pension plans) death row criminals? While no other taxes could go for it?
- Jesus underwent capital punishment (unjustly) - but did not speak against it. The two thieves begged him to save them (physically). He did not. He promised the repentant one “Paradise” that day instead - but the earthly sentence was completed.
- Jesus left “capital punishment” intact when he intervened in the case of the woman accused of adultery. He stipulated that “he who is without sin” should throw the first stone. Which ruled out all present but him as the executioner. He then pardoned the woman telling her to “sin no more”.
- OTOH Hell is eternal capital punishment. Jesus died so that no one would have to go there. But He assured us that people do go there. And that WE might.
THAT is what He was/is saving us “from”. - An advantage of “No capital punishment” is … you never execute an innocent person.
- ** Numbers 35:11 **select for yourselves cities to serve as cities of asylum, where a homicide who has killed someone unintentionally may take refuge. 12 These cities shall serve you as places of asylum from the avenger of blood, so that a homicide shall not be put to death unless he is first tried before the community.
- Numbers 35:16 "If a man strikes another with an iron instrument and causes his death, he is a murderer and shall be put to death.
18 If a man strikes another with a death-dealing club in his hand and causes his death, he is a murderer and shall be put to death.
19 The avenger of blood may execute the murderer, putting him to death on sight.
It also occurs to me that most of what is being talked about relates to prisoners who are secured and incapable (one would think) of harming society more while they are in jail.
Soldiers, police officers, and people defending themselves might be said to have “capitally punished” someone they kill - but such cases are examined individually.
As you can see I have thoughts each way on the matter. I will soon read Archbishop Chaput’s statement. In the end though, Justice and appropriate mercy will be done. (By God).
The Catholic Church favors mercy over justice slightly (it seems to me) … and that may have begun with Jesus Himself.
One can go too far with that too though, as the results of the recent Church scandals have shown. Perhaps thinking it was the victims’ desire to keep things quiet and handled softly (or the complainants would have gone to the Police instead) Church officials opted for counseling and re-assignment over more stringent punishments for accused clergy.
Not regarding THOSE scandals, but I can remember the late Archbishop Fulton Sheen warning America that mercy wasn’t just for the perpetrators of crime but for their victims if justice was to be done.
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JimG
Guest
I appreaciate your thoughts on the matter.
For myself, I don’t think I could ever be an executioner, so maybe tha’s one reason I don’t want to ask someone else to do it either.
But aside from the ethical considerations, there is cost. Capital murder cases just cost a heck of a lot more to prosecute than non-capital murder cases. They take longer, convictions are harder to obtain, and if the prosecutor does not give the jury the option of finding a defending guilty of a lesser charge (like 1st degree murder, which is a lesser charge than capital murder in my state), the defendant could walk.
Then if a person is given a death sentence, it’s sort of like a diagnosis of disease which may or may not kill you. You might get a diagnosis of cancer and yet live long enough–decades or more–to actually die of something else. The exact same thing is true of those sentenced to death in the justice system. It will be at least a decade or more before the sentence is carried out, if at all. So all that cost of prosecution could have been saved by locking the guy up for life, which is what might happen anyway.
OTOH, a life sentence, as I have pointed out before, doesn’t really mean life. It means he’ll be eligible for parole after a certain amount of time.
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Swiss_Guy
Guest
I agree with the Archbishop.
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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
Me, too.
However, I want complete assurances that the replacement will be life in prison without possibility of parole.
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Swiss_Guy
Guest
I mean, you still have to serve justice.Me, too.
However, I want complete assurances that the replacement will be life in prison without possibility of parole.
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