Archbishop Cordileone's Comments on Yesterday's DOMA Ruling

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So I just read this article on the USCCB website:

usccb.org/news/2012/12-169.cfm

and I have a question. First, let me say that I am in no way criticizing the archbishop. I love the Catholic Church and her gift of leadership even in civil matters. But I don’t understand how redefining marriage “contradicts basic human rights”. I understand the church’s teaching on the matter, but I don’t get this particular statement at all.

If you understand it, please throw me a comment. When you do, please be nice. I know its a touchy subject, but being rude solves nothing. Again, I’ll stress that I’m not attacking the archbishop or the Church’s position on same sex unions…just trying to understand it better. Thanks!
 
It is a basic human right of a child to be raised by their biological parents, a mother and father. Many times this does not happen, for various reasons, but we consider this less than ideal in every case (and it is still the norm). This is in no way to denigrate single parents, or adoptive parents, but to recognize the design of God for marriage and family (which virtually every stable society, throughout history, has accepted).
To change the definition of marriage would say that there is no difference, in law (and eventually in custom) between two men raising a child (or two women), and their actual (biological) parents raising the child.
That would mean that our laws say it is no longer the right of a child to be raised by their parents (which marriage is intended to do) - that any two people (or any unit the state defines as a ‘married unit’) can raise the child and that there is no difference between that, and being raised by their parents. In other words, their right to be raised by their parents no longer exists.
 
If this shows up twice, I apologize. This is my second attempt at posting a response.

Thanks for clearing that up. I think I disagree (for now) with this HIs Exellency’s statement simply because biological parents can be bad parents. I don’t believe anyone should have the right to treat a child poorly even if the child if the child is their biological offspring. In the practical sense, I think the child’s right to being raised by his/her biological parents would end up being enforced as the parents’ right to their biological children (which they already have in my understanding) and this can be a horrific thing in the case of abuse. It also seem like a bit of a stretch to say that a same-sex couple would necessarily be worse parents than a heterosexual married couple based solely on the fact that they are both male or both female.

Again, I’m not criticizing the Church’s teaching, but rather I’m trying to make it make sense in my head.
 
If this shows up twice, I apologize. This is my second attempt at posting a response.

Thanks for clearing that up. I think I disagree (for now) with this HIs Exellency’s statement simply because biological parents can be bad parents. I don’t believe anyone should have the right to treat a child poorly even if the child if the child is their biological offspring. In the practical sense, I think the child’s right to being raised by his/her biological parents would end up being enforced as the parents’ right to their biological children (which they already have in my understanding) and this can be a horrific thing in the case of abuse. It also seem like a bit of a stretch to say that a same-sex couple would necessarily be worse parents than a heterosexual married couple based solely on the fact that they are both male or both female.

Again, I’m not criticizing the Church’s teaching, but rather I’m trying to make it make sense in my head.
Two things on this. One, we are not saying that it is a parent’s right to treat a child poorly. It is a child’s right to be raised by a mother and a father. This, of course, assumes that the mother and father are doing well by their child. Instances of abuse are unfortunate, but do not negate the right of the child;rather they violently violate that right. An abusive parent cannot be said to be raising their child, and are instead treating their child as a possession, to be used as they see fit.

As for the second part, it is not that they are “worse” parents. Worse is a subjective term, and doesn’t really belong in this discussion. It is simply that the human psychology has been proven to develop best in an environment with a loving mother and a loving father. Without this duality of gender, a child may grow up confused about the proper methods of interaction with the missing gender, or without understanding of the different roles of the sexes.

A mother, a father and children; that is the way that every stable society since the beginning of civilization has operated. There is a reason for this, a very good reason. It’s how we were designed, by God, to operate. Variations int eh formula have always lead to problems within the very core of the society, because they are going against nature and God.

I suggest you read this to give you an idea of what I’m talking about with the psychology statement:
Testimony of a man raised by two mothers.
 
I think I disagree (for now) with this HIs Exellency’s statement simply because biological parents can be bad parents.
SO. CAN. HOMOSEXUAL. "PARENTS."

Being homosexual doesn’t confer goodness on your “parenting” skills, let alone superior skills to any heterosexual parents or to all heterosexual parents. Nevertheless, this myth and this propaganda continues to be peddled by the homosexual lobby. (Homosexuality, Good. Heterosexuality, Bad.)

Heterosexual parents are flawed.
Homosexual “parents” are flawed.

The only difference is, the child willl get the complement of genders in a heterosexual household, and be deprived of the either-bad-or-good opposite parent in a homosexual household.
 
SO. CAN. HOMOSEXUAL. "PARENTS."

Being homosexual doesn’t confer goodness on your “parenting” skills, let alone superior skills to any heterosexual parents or to all heterosexual parents. Nevertheless, this myth and this propaganda continues to be peddled by the homosexual lobby. (Homosexuality, Good. Heterosexuality, Bad.)

Heterosexual parents are flawed.
Homosexual “parents” are flawed.

The only difference is, the child willl get the complement of genders in a heterosexual household, and be deprived of the either-bad-or-good opposite parent in a homosexual household.
Another class war reference. And which political direction does it come from? Hint:

< (as you look at IT; not as it’d look at you!) :ballspin:
 
Being homosexual doesn’t confer goodness on your “parenting” skills, let alone superior skills to any heterosexual parents or to all heterosexual parents. Nevertheless, this myth and this propaganda continues to be peddled by the homosexual lobby. (Homosexuality, Good. Heterosexuality, Bad.)
Elizabeth, I don’t think anything Mary wrote is related to that comment.

Yes, as Mary said, heterosexual parents can do a poor, even horrific job. And as you noted, so can homosexual parents. Neither of those points say that one is better than the other.

Archbishop Cordileone’s stated that “It is a matter of basic rights—the right of every child to be welcomed and raised, as far as possible, by his or her mother and father together in a stable home.” Now, who could argue with that? If both parents are alive and the household is not wracked with abuse or neglect, surely the child will do best with his biological parents. 🤷

Obviously, though, there are situations where the child does not have both biological parents, or the household is not a stable environment.

I think what Abp. Cordileone was getting at, but didn’t quite say, is that a child needs both a mother and a father. A male and female role model is invaluable for giving the child a balanced experience of the world and insight into how to adapt to that world.
 
To Catholics, marriage is entirely about children-to the secular society we live in, not so much. Marriage in the secular world is about two consenting adults forming a union-a contract if you will. Those adults then get benefits from the government and businesses because their union is called “marriage”.

The argument comes down to those two very different ideas of what marriage is about. The secular world says “relationship between two consenting adults” and the Church says “relationship between a man and a woman for the purpose of having children”. Because the Church and civil society are starting from different basic assumptions-they are NEVER going to reach agreement.

Gay marriage already is legal in several states, will likely be legal in more places…and the Church will never bless such unions or accept them as “marriage.” My guess is that in about 30 years gay marriage will be just like divorce is today-it will exist, the Church will be officially against it, but we won’t hear about it all the time the way we do now.
 
Archbishop Cordileone’s stated that “It is a matter of basic rights—the right of every child to be welcomed and raised, as far as possible, by his or her mother and father together in a stable home.” Now, who could argue with that? If both parents are alive and the household is not wracked with abuse or neglect, surely the child will do best with his biological parents. 🤷
This is also why the Church is against IVF and surrogates, etc…
 
Elizabeth, I don’t think anything Mary wrote is related to that comment.
And I am telling you that, given her specific phrases, she is picking it up from the same Urban Legend that assumes that homosexuals have a superior quotient of altruism, “love,” and “commitment” than heterosexual parents do. (Those are the Talking Pointsi from the Gay Lobby.)

And I am telling you that the Gay Lobby argues the Extremes to “prove” the norm., argues the Negative to “prove” (an illogical) false positive. And heterosexuals who are “sympathetic” buy it.

I am telling you that the propaganda is unconsciously picked up by Catholics and non-Catholics who are brow-beaten into feeling guilty about the supposedly oppressed homosexual class of people in the USA, who supposedly (the Urban Legend continues) are the heroic and romantic ideal of pure love.

(Again, Heterosexuality, Bad. Homosexuality, Good.)
I think what Abp. Cordileone was getting at, but didn’t quite say, is that a child needs both a mother and a father. A male and female role model is invaluable for giving the child a balanced experience of the world and insight into how to adapt to that world.
There’s no “think” about it. It’s obvious. It’s obvious that he is does know that, and it’s clear that you, as an insightful person, intuitively understand that, as does most of the human race.

We keep going through these frankly stupid arguments over and over, Dale. (I’m obviously not referring to you or to other persons, but to the re–presentation of them weekly on CAF.) Been there, done that. It’s been talked to death. It is not necessarily a Good for a homosexual couple to be the artificial “parents” of a child, including one they (as a couple) adopt and raise. The model of the homosexual couple in the household is a lot more complex than merely two heterosexuals of the same gender (say, the mother and the aunt or grandmother) being the only two adult guardians in the household. It gets very tiresome to keep resurrecting the CAF discussions about this which have occurred over the last 4 years. Really old.

My impatience is related to the fact that the omnipresent “new” idea keeps being “introduced” as if it’s novel and profound. It is actually the Church’s theology and integrated philosophy about marriage, family, gender that is profound, not the shallow understanding of “love” from the secular culture. Anyone who truly understands that theology, and how unified it is, would never try to overlay secular reasoning on that and seriously argue that maybe the Church’s reasoning, or an Archbishop’s reasoning, is incomplete or inadequate.

Two or three years ago on CAF I weighed in on what I would consider (and I believe the Church would also consider, given my understanding of the consistency of the theology) an allowable exception to adoption by a homosexual. The Church will never approve of artificial methods of reproduction such as are required when the anatomy is absent. As someone else alluded to, that moral reasoning extends to heterosexual infertility as well. Separating oneself from the organic reproductive process is gravely evil.

There could be individual cases where a single, inactive homosexual adopts a child who is not a candidate for adoption by a healthy heterosexual couple. I’m not going to repeat all the reasons here.

In any case, children are not commodities. Children are not products of technology. Children are not separate from their origins. Children are a gift (not right) to a heterosexual couple. Even a heterosexual couple does not have a “right” to a child.
 
And I am telling you that, given her specific phrases, she is picking it up from the same Urban Legend that assumes that homosexuals have a superior quotient of altruism, “love,” and “commitment” than heterosexual parents do. (Those are the Talking Pointsi from the Gay Lobby.)
I am puzzled by this statement, because I have never before read any gays or lesbians claim that to be true. Who is saying such things?
 
If this shows up twice, I apologize. This is my second attempt at posting a response.

Thanks for clearing that up. I think I disagree (for now) with this HIs Exellency’s statement simply because biological parents can be bad parents. I don’t believe anyone should have the right to treat a child poorly even if the child if the child is their biological offspring. In the practical sense, I think the child’s right to being raised by his/her biological parents would end up being enforced as the parents’ right to their biological children (which they already have in my understanding) and this can be a horrific thing in the case of abuse. It also seem like a bit of a stretch to say that a same-sex couple would necessarily be worse parents than a heterosexual married couple based solely on the fact that they are both male or both female.

Again, I’m not criticizing the Church’s teaching, but rather I’m trying to make it make sense in my head.
Parents, by definition, are male and female. Two, or more, same sex persons posing as parents is an abuse no matter how nice they seem.
 
Gay marriage already is legal in several states, will likely be legal in more places…and the Church will never bless such unions or accept them as “marriage.” My guess is that in about 30 years gay marriage will be just like divorce is today-it will exist, the Church will be officially against it, but we won’t hear about it all the time the way we do now.
I agree. I have a question, did the Church lobby against legalization of divorce? Also, if we are concerned about things that go agaisnt God’s Will, why isn’t the Church lobbying to reverse legal divorce?

I agree with the Church’s teaching against gay marriage, but I’m confused how the legalization of gay marriage is much different than the legalization of divorce.
 
To Catholics, marriage is entirely about children-to the secular society we live in, not so much.
Marriage is not ALL about children. My husband and I don’t have children yet we have a fulfilling marriage. Marriage is a vocation, not a means to an end.
 
But where is the Church fighting to make them illegal?

I only see this for gay marriage and abortion.
Very interesting question about imposing the will of the Church onto a society.

This is fraught with problems.
 
Marriage is not ALL about children. My husband and I don’t have children yet we have a fulfilling marriage. Marriage is a vocation, not a means to an end.
“Yet”…that would mean that you are open to the possibility, yes? According to Church teaching as I understand it, all marriages must be open to the possibility-therefore, all about children.
 
“Yet”…that would mean that you are open to the possibility, yes? According to Church teaching as I understand it, all marriages must be open to the possibility-therefore, all about children.
Of course we open to the possibility but I am infertile. If God wants me to have a child, He will send me one. No, marriage is not all about children, it’s about serving each other as we would serve Christ. They call it a vocation for a reason.
 
Of course we open to the possibility but I am infertile. If God wants me to have a child, He will send me one. No, marriage is not all about children, it’s about serving each other as we would serve Christ. They call it a vocation for a reason.
I suggest you re-read some of the threads here on CAF and the Church documents on Marriage. It is about the family and the raising of children. It has to be, because if it is NOT about family and the raising of children then there would be no salient argument against same sex marriage. if it were only about the couple “serving each other”, then there would be no barrier to two people of the same sex living together in service to each other.
 
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