Archbishop Dolan Confronts Catholics’ Disaffection

[Rich_Olszewski]

It’s sad to see the Catholic parishes here populated with pompous, unfriendly, unavailable (trust me, unavailable is the word!), and ethnic-pandering priests and odd congregants. There’s a LOT of room for improvement!

I can’t be as harsh as you about “ethnic-pandering.” My parish in Brooklyn, NY is, for all practical purposes as Polish as any in Warsaw, with more Masses in Polish than in English. That neighborhood, too, (Greenpoint) has more store signs in Polish than in English, and I enjoy going shopping when I’m back there and using the language of the old country with merchants.

I can’t blame the priests, who are all Polish-speakers whether Americans or from Poland itself, from pandering to the Poles in the parish. Want to go to an all American church? Go over to St. Cecelia’s a few blocks away. BTW, Masses are always packed thanks to pandering.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well just call me Mr. Harsh! When I speak of “ethnic pandering” I’m talking about how the Catholic parishes/diocese here put everything in Spanish including our missals. Our missals have a giant font: unidos en cristo and underneath it says in English United in Christ The music has all Spanishy themes. They stick Spanish phrases in everything at the English Mass. Up until a few years ago we only had English Masses. Now since California has so many illegals, they’ve added Spanish. Then they started more ethnic Marian Masses, lots of fiestas, and plenty of Mexican rites of passage done during Mass like quincineras that I think have no business being a part of Mass. The bishop here constantly talks about his liberal views on the border and how we should welcome illegal immigrants, the Portuguese have lots of $$$ here so they rule the roost with their Marian parades and cultural events. I’m just not a fan.

I can’t be as harsh as you about “ethnic-pandering.” My parish in Brooklyn, NY is, for all practical purposes as Polish as any in Warsaw, with more Masses in Polish than in English. That neighborhood, too, (Greenpoint) has more store signs in Polish than in English, and I enjoy going shopping when I’m back there and using the language of the old country with merchants.

I can’t blame the priests, who are all Polish-speakers whether Americans or from Poland itself, from pandering to the Poles in the parish. Want to go to an all American church? Go over to St. Cecelia’s a few blocks away. BTW, Masses are always packed thanks to pandering.

 

[CatholicFireman]

Closing 32 Catholic Schools in one area does not help attendance at Mass.

And how do we keep them open? We need we good Catholics (not other religions as I’ve seen) to attend them and that is not happening. Tuition helps to keep them open. Unfortuantely, the way the economy is, it’s tough to send your child to parochial school

The problem is Catholic Schools are closing. Let’s try to find a solution.

Pax†

 

[PbloPicasso]

My experience with parochial schools is that they once served the community well. Now they seem more self serving. They were introduced in a country where the public education was seriously lacking and inner city schools became gang banger territory, thus unsafe. Now, many public school districts have already surpassed Catholic Schools by a land slide. Public schools are big money. People want a better product for their tax dollars. This is actually good for the country. And if the Christians are taken from the public schools the secularism will become even worse. So closings are an opportunity for opening charter schools under new management in my opinion.

 

[CinciMom]

And how do we keep them open? We need we good Catholics (not other religions as I’ve seen) to attend them and that is not happening. Tuition helps to keep them open. Unfortuantely, the way the economy is, it’s tough to send your child to parochial school

The problem is Catholic Schools are closing. Let’s try to find a solution.

Pax†

I went through a Catholic school closing. There was PLENTY of money to keep the school open but the liberal, social justice friendly pastor, decided to use the money to renovate the parish center for the Hispanic ministry. Now that the school closed, a lot of parishioners left and the money is not coming in as he hoped.

At the time of the closing, it was a test for my faith. The Archdiocese wants to close schools when parents are making many sacrifices to send their children to experience “Values for a lifetime” (slogan). I love the Mass, I love the history of our faith and that is why we switched twice to find the school we LOVE and now our school is in the same boat

As someone who went through this, I can see why so many Catholics would be a little put off and leave the church. Trust me, the temptation is there!

I am on the recruitment committee and working on marketing our school. We are a more traditional parish and our priest is more traditional too. He supports keeping the school open which helps a lot.

One solution to the problem of closing Catholic schools is to eliminate the social justice campaigns such as CCHD, eliminate the position of Office of Social Justice in the diocese – those salaries and bennies cost money, that could be helping the poorer schools. I know it is a pipe-dream, but miracles do happen!

 

[CinciMom]

Also, I would highly suggest that Catholic schools stick to the traditional Catholic curriculum and not cater to the non-Catholics that are sending their children to Catholic Schools.

For the Cafeteria Catholics who do not attend Mass on Sunday and send their children to school, get the parish rate, I would suggest to start making notes and tell them either go to Mass or get the out of parish rate. The priest needs to do this as it is not only his church, but school as well!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

As a sixth grade teacher in public schools, I concur that we definitely need more Christian kids to witness within that system. In my classroom we’re studying the Ancient Hebrews/Israel in history. It’s a part of our California social studies curriculum to study Ancient Israel and later with the Ancient Rome unit it’s a standard to study Christianity. And what’s so nice is both units are very fair in the book. The book approaches everything from a biblical standpoint and is very charitable and open to the Bible. The problem is, my kids in my class are CLUELESS about religion! All the parents and the kids purport to go to church every Sunday and be in “bible studies” and awanas and this and that. But when you ask the kids who Moses was? no clue. Ask them who King David or Saul was? No clue. Ask them about Solomon? Never heard of him! Almost my entire class had NEVER heard of Abraham or Isaac or Jacob and had no knowledge of the patriarchs of Israel or even the basics.

So the bottom line is these kids are getting more Biblical history and catechesis from ME than they are their families and churches! That’s unacceptable. They come to me with no prior knowledge as Christians. It gets worse and worse each year. So I think the lack of real solid Christian families in the public system is evident. Also the lack of sincere Christians rather than just nominal ones is also evident. And i think moral relativist secular humanist garbage is all too prevalent and the effects are apparent. Parents and children have largely lost their faith. It’s tough to watch. And it’s really frustrating to teach this WONDERFUL biblical curriculum as the kids make ZERO connections!

They’re loving my unit on Israel. They’re really responding to it and each year several of my kids go out on their own and purchase bibles and Christian commentaries, etc. and they get interested in their faith again. I have an impact on about 30% of my class at least each year so I see it as my vocation within the public system.

My experience with parochial schools is that they once served the community well. Now they seem more self serving. They were introduced in a country where the public education was seriously lacking and inner city schools became gang banger territory, thus unsafe. Now, many public school districts have already surpassed Catholic Schools by a land slide. Public schools are big money. People want a better product for their tax dollars. This is actually good for the country. And if the Christians are taken from the public schools the secularism will become even worse. So closings are an opportunity for opening charter schools under new management in my opinion.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

In my area they don’t cater to non-Catholics in the slightest. They shouldn’t. But then again like 98% of the Catholic schools here are Catholic kids.

Also, I would highly suggest that Catholic schools stick to the traditional Catholic curriculum and not cater to the non-Catholics that are sending their children to Catholic Schools.

For the Cafeteria Catholics who do not attend Mass on Sunday and send their children to school, get the parish rate, I would suggest to start making notes and tell them either go to Mass or get the out of parish rate. The priest needs to do this as it is not only his church, but school as well!

 

[PbloPicasso]

I guarantee you that most Protestant that allegedly attend bible classes don’t really know scripture better than Catholics. I’m really sick of hearing it because it’s simply not true. If people are faithful to attending mass and actually read along or listen actively they may actually know scripture better. Just because someone can give you the exact reference does not mean they know it better. I used to do the BCV on people, especially Catholics.

I still believe the bishops would be wise to invest, not in the Catholic schools, but in before and after school programs along with expanding children and adult religion programs. They need to increase wages to recruit better personnel with can do attitudes, not the people trying to hide from the world. They must also be willing to hire and fire as necessary and stop the nepotism. They should provide money to expand technology to reach out more of the world, fallen away Catholics, and us as well. They need to build facilities suitable for families like in mega churches and provide ample childcare during church services.

Anyway, Protestants know what I mean. I love the ancient Traditions of our faith and the teachings, but we need to utilize existing technologies to reach out to those not getting the message that “we’re here for them”. Clericalism needs to be shoved out the door on its head. That was a pompous rule anyway and now we know it was a heretical system designed to subdue some and lift up others. The Saints seemed to know better. And who can forget the most recent problems with the sex scandals that will be held against us for many generations to come. It is evidence of a much deeper problem that has deeply scarred the laity’s trust. Thats’ why I watch my children so much and insist on be involved and able to make surprise visits on the spur of the moment. The fact I was recently denied access to my teenage son’s class sent off huge alarms. Employees that allow such things should be fired on the spot just for being that dumb to think its okay.

Once the bishops admit that the problem is really in the hierarchy at their level, actually change the mindset up in the nose bleed section, change the same among those called and hired to serve us, and assure the laity we truly have a voice, then things will probably get better. The Church is almost socialism in that the haves must learn to use what they need and give the rest to help those in need without grudges. That is when people truly come to understand that a janitor is just as important to God as an attorney. You know what I really mean. It boils down to practicing what you preach. That’s where the real transformation must take place FIRST - the clergy. Then the world’s confidence will be lifted up - hopefully. The rest just takes time. My dumb opinion.

 

[CatholicFireman]

I went through a Catholic school closing. There was PLENTY of money to keep the school open but the liberal, social justice friendly pastor, decided to use the money to renovate the parish center for the Hispanic ministry. Now that the school closed, a lot of parishioners left and the money is not coming in as he hoped.

At the time of the closing, it was a test for my faith. The Archdiocese wants to close schools when parents are making many sacrifices to send their children to experience “Values for a lifetime” (slogan). I love the Mass, I love the history of our faith and that is why we switched twice to find the school we LOVE and now our school is in the same boat

As someone who went through this, I can see why so many Catholics would be a little put off and leave the church. Trust me, the temptation is there!

I am on the recruitment committee and working on marketing our school. We are a more traditional parish and our priest is more traditional too. He supports keeping the school open which helps a lot.

One solution to the problem of closing Catholic schools is to eliminate the social justice campaigns such as CCHD, eliminate the position of Office of Social Justice in the diocese – those salaries and bennies cost money, that could be helping the poorer schools. I know it is a pipe-dream, but miracles do happen!

Yes, miracles do happen. I’ll pray for you folks. It’s kind of funny I came from a place where they closed/consolidated Catholic schools (NY) and now I belong to a parish in VA that is planning to eventually build a Catholic school. It’s amazing and refreshing to see.

 

[PbloPicasso]

I think Michael Voris hits the nail on the head, even if it comes across extremely frustrated and negative.

 

[rlg94086]

As a convert, I don’t get worried about the numbers, but I am pleased with the return in many areas to a more traditional, orthodox approach to our catholicity. We need to be Catholic with vigor, rather than just another Christian church. We also need to reinvigorate our parishes’ outreach through charitable works.

The Holy Spirit will guide people to and back to His Church. Those who are looking for the Truth can’t stay away. Those who are looking for a church to suit their personal desires will continue to do so. Until they take their focus off of themselves and truly seek Christ’s Church, they will make do with the watered down version without the Eucharist.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I agree. In fact, my Catholic students normally have a better grasp on the basics of the Bible than my protestant kids. The stereotype about Catholics being biblically illiterate and Protestants masters of Scripture is pretty bogus from my experience…

I guarantee you that most Protestant that allegedly attend bible classes don’t really know scripture better than Catholics. I’m really sick of hearing it because it’s simply not true. If people are faithful to attending mass and actually read along or listen actively they may actually know scripture better. Just because someone can give you the exact reference does not mean they know it better. I used to do the BCV on people, especially Catholics.

I still believe the bishops would be wise to invest, not in the Catholic schools, but in before and after school programs along with expanding children and adult religion programs. They need to increase wages to recruit better personnel with can do attitudes, not the people trying to hide from the world. They must also be willing to hire and fire as necessary and stop the nepotism. They should provide money to expand technology to reach out more of the world, fallen away Catholics, and us as well. They need to build facilities suitable for families like in mega churches and provide ample childcare during church services.

Anyway, Protestants know what I mean. I love the ancient Traditions of our faith and the teachings, but we need to utilize existing technologies to reach out to those not getting the message that “we’re here for them”. Clericalism needs to be shoved out the door on its head. That was a pompous rule anyway and now we know it was a heretical system designed to subdue some and lift up others. The Saints seemed to know better. And who can forget the most recent problems with the sex scandals that will be held against us for many generations to come. It is evidence of a much deeper problem that has deeply scarred the laity’s trust. Thats’ why I watch my children so much and insist on be involved and able to make surprise visits on the spur of the moment. The fact I was recently denied access to my teenage son’s class sent off huge alarms. Employees that allow such things should be fired on the spot just for being that dumb to think its okay.

Once the bishops admit that the problem is really in the hierarchy at their level, actually change the mindset up in the nose bleed section, change the same among those called and hired to serve us, and assure the laity we truly have a voice, then things will probably get better. The Church is almost socialism in that the haves must learn to use what they need and give the rest to help those in need without grudges. That is when people truly come to understand that a janitor is just as important to God as an attorney. You know what I really mean. It boils down to practicing what you preach. That’s where the real transformation must take place FIRST - the clergy. Then the world’s confidence will be lifted up - hopefully. The rest just takes time. My dumb opinion.

 

[PbloPicasso]

As a convert, I don’t get worried about the numbers, but I am pleased with the return in many areas to a more traditional, orthodox approach to our catholicity. We need to be Catholic with vigor, rather than just another Christian church. We also need to reinvigorate our parishes’ outreach through charitable works.

The Holy Spirit will guide people to and back to His Church. Those who are looking for the Truth can’t stay away. Those who are looking for a church to suit their personal desires will continue to do so. Until they take their focus off of themselves and truly seek Christ’s Church, they will make do with the watered down version without the Eucharist.

Congregations that invest much in their children also have plenty towards charitable works in my experience. That’s one of the many reasons I believe it’s important for the bishops to adopt St. Bosco’s ideas, but expand them to all children in the Church first and from that catechesis the rest will fall into place.

I agree that a return towards more of the richness of Catholicism is wonderful and that we should always see ourselves as part of the real Church of Christ, viz., the Church that Christ founded and not allow ourselves to become complacent, but rather be jubilant, evangelists for Christ in whatever work God calls us. That may be someone that shows up every Sunday with all 8 children as an example to the rest of us. It may be the way they correct their children properly and not overly during mass. It may be standing on the street corner handing out bibles or flyers or knocking on doors to invite people to attend mass. It would be bible study (if you have the background). There are all sorts of callings.

Side note: if you get a chance to see Megamind, please do it and notice the Catholicity buried within the character. It’s interesting. He said he wanted to be the best bad guy he could be since he was good at being bad. Ultimately…I won’t spoil it because the development of the character ultimately reveals things I’m learning in my education classes regarding nature vs. nurture or genetic vs. environment.

 

[Windfish]

I think our clergy can only do so much, but what they can do is still important. Providing a beautiful Liturgy and authentic Catholic teaching during the Homily go a long way, and is it really too much to ask? I also think priests need to be acquainted with the new media and become informed on the latest obstacles to the Faith so that they can adequately address them in their parishes. Fr. Barron’s Word on Fire commentaries would be an excellent resource to reference. And as another poster said, I think priests need to encourage Catholic piety with devotions - the Rosary, the Miraculous Medal, the Brown Scapular, reading the Bible, etc.

But if we really want to move some ground, it’s up to the laity. We have to edify and educate ourselves so that we can contend for the Faith. Start up apologetics ministries, build networks, and go door-to-door!

 

[OriginalJS]

How does that figure compare to previous years, though? I think that would be the only way we could judge if there really is a “huge exodus” or if this is the normal “retention rate.” It is still an alarming number, but wherever Catholic apologetics and evangelization are being taught, there is no denying that there has been an increase in conversions and enthusiasm.

I agree, for years it has been true that many leave the Church, and many come in. I think one of the underlying concerns is that many of those leaving are better off economically than many coming in. A result is lack of financial support leading to the closing of churches and consolidation in parishes.

 

[Frankr409]

When my wife and I were considering the Catholic school, they refused to give us a tour. They also refused to give us curriculum information saying they don’t have any! As a teacher myself, I was appauled. .

Our local Catholic school gives those tours twice a year, maybe they have the same arrangements at the one that refused you.

Maybe they were Appauled [sic] that a teacher could not spell the word appalled correctly.

 

[CatholicFireman]

Catholic schools have open house once or twice a year in my diocese.

 

[PbloPicasso]

Dolan has just gravely hurt my trust in him and I know now not to follow anything he says because anyone that refers to God as he, she, it or whatever, is no friend of the Church, and questionably with Christ. Christ is not a woman or an it or a whatever. We’re in a dark age or relativism and political correctness with a great cost of souls. The bishops need more than just prayers. They need conversion.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

And maybe you should consider that I had been working my butt off all day, was tired, and was typing at 10:30 at night and we all make mistakes. Ever consider that? And I would hope you don’t base talent, curriculum, delivery, and efficacy on spelling words…no need for snobby remarks Franko. I type 90 words a minute. Mistakes happen. Nuthin uh hayt mowr thayn snahbby kriticks hoo hav nuthin’ beyter tuh doo thayn nitpik uh pursun’s spelun!

If a school is so lame that they can only grant tours twice a year and not accomodate folks who are considering enrolling their kids in their school, then they’re not worth it. Enrolling a child at a Catholic school is a big decision. We’re talking hundreds of dollars per child per month and putting one’s faith in an invisible curriculum and not even being allowed to look through the campus as learning is taking place. That’s absurd. But in the end, the reputation for the school having inexperienced teachers, a rude office staff, “secret” curriculum, overloaded classrooms, insane amounts of volunteer hours, and a reputation for being behind the public schools = no thank yuh! Notice “yuh” is spelled incorrrectly for effect!

Our local Catholic school gives those tours twice a year, maybe they have the same arrangements at the one that refused you.

Maybe they were Appauled [sic] that a teacher could not spell the word appalled correctly.