Archbishop Dolan on Immigration Reform

[St_Francis]

One of the main reasons I have a problem with the “Mexicans are starving” argument is that there are people in the world who are in much worse shape than the people in Mexico, but those people can’t walk across the border to here like the Mexicans can. The life expectancy in Mexico is 75.8, in the US, 78.1.

There are 20 nations listed which have a life expectancy under 50, and 3 which have life expectancies under 40!

If we want to help people not starve, *and *we want to provide unskilled labor (another justification for close-to-amnesty for those here illegally), then maybe we should have a set-up whereby people here can help those in nations where people *really are *starving to get here.

 

[Sherry_G]

The situation is Mexico is not as good as that of the US, I agree with you there. But the situation in Mexico is not that bad, either, in that in Mexico people can receive health care, on a sliding scale and free if they are very poor. And their health care is good, maybe not as good as the US, but many of their doctors have studied in the US so definitely of high quality. The life expectancy at birth is about the same as ours.

And people in Mexico are not starving. The general population is living a decent life. There is access to education, and few are unemployed. Like the US, there are some people who fall through the cracks. We have homeless people here, don’t we? And sometimes they die of exposure, don’t they? And yet we do not see the US as a nation in which people are homeless and dying of exposure, do we?

Moreover, unlike in the US, you don’t need a prescription to get antibiotics–as it turns out, this is not such a good thing as they do not always take them appropriately and there are now more antibiotic-resistant strains of diseases there than here, but people are not dying for lack of access to health care or antibiotics.

Many, many Cood christians go on mercy missions to Mexico to provide health care and other basic necessities for those who do not have access otherwise. This is a well documented and well known fact. To claim that all is rosy south of the border does not change the reality of millions who have come to the US, does it?

But, back to the real issue…immigration reform! Archibishop Dolan was addressing the real situation that now exists. The reasons for the migration to America could not possibly be just for a change of scenery or because they are tired and bored of the Mexican way of life. Let’s decide to stop blaming and start doing something to improve the situation. Creating a legal and documentable PATH for those who are here instead of what we are currently doing : nothing but complaining.

If we continue to do the same old thing, nothing will get better. Things will continue to get worse.

 

[Sherry_G]

One of the main reasons I have a problem with the “Mexicans are starving” argument is that there are people in the world who are in much worse shape than the people in Mexico, but those people can’t walk across the border to here like the Mexicans can. The life expectancy in Mexico is 75.8, in the US, 78.1.

There are 20 nations listed which have a life expectancy under 50, and 3 which have life expectancies under 40!

If we want to help people not starve, *and *we want to provide unskilled labor (another justification for close-to-amnesty for those here illegally), then maybe we should have a set-up whereby people here can help those in nations where people *really are *starving to get here.

Well, that is something to give some serious thought to! However, meanwhile, what does this do to solve the current situation we have??

 

[St_Francis]

Many, many Cood christians go on mercy missions to Mexico to provide health care and other basic necessities for those who do not have access otherwise. This is a well documented and well known fact. To claim that all is rosy south of the border does not change the reality of millions who have come to the US, does it?

I didn’t say it was rosy; I said it wasn’t as bad as people sometimes claim. If the health care is so bad in Mexico that people are dying, then why is the life expectancy so high? Here is an outline of the system in Mexico. True, it is not perfect, but my sister-in-law used to work in a free clinic to provide health care to poor people in the US. Does this give us the right to cross the border to Canada?

But, back to the real issue…immigration reform! Archibishop Dolan was addressing the real situation that now exists. The reasons for the migration to America could not possibly be just for a change of scenery or because they are tired and bored of the Mexican way of life. Let’s decide to stop blaming and start doing something to improve the situation. Creating a legal and documentable PATH for those who are here instead of what we are currently doing : nothing but complaining.

If we continue to do the same old thing, nothing will get better. Things will continue to get worse.

We have done this 6 times in 25 years, and all that has happened is that *more *people come here illegally (or come legally and stay illegally). So I agree that if we do the same old thing, nothing will get better. Things will continue to get worse.

 

[kimmielittle]

But, back to the real issue…immigration reform! Archibishop Dolan was addressing the real situation that now exists.

Actually, if you read the Archbishops article, He addresses nothing about immigration reform…AND he surly isn’t saying ‘open borders’, as some suggest.

“Yes, every society has the duty to protect its borders and thoughtfully monitor its population. The call is to do this justly, sanely, and civilly.”

blog.archny.org/?p=652

 

[Tigg]

We have never been told of genocide, starvation, or religious prosecution in Mexico in our lifetimes.

NOR are they seeking political asylum.

 

[kimmielittle]

Why not face the reality that we have the problem in the here and now instead of prattling on and on about what should be happening? The people who are already here need to be dealt with in a responsible way.

ABSOLUTELY Responsible means to hold illegals responsible for **their ** actions. It isn’t like illegals are just thrust into this predicament. They chose their illegal activities.

My original post was addressing the here and now, not some theory or liberal ideology as you put it.

You have failed to prove that your solution is moral …ethical…responsible… workable…or solves the problem. As such, it remains nothing more than your personal theory.

I asked people to consider providing a legitimate path for all those who are in the situation.

Actually, there already exists a **legitimate path ** - Require 1940 Naturalization laws be upheld. Expect / hold illegals to be accountable to them.

Why keep on sticking your heads in the sand and pretend that somebody will build a huge fence

. Why is this anyone sticking their heads in the sand? Prove it’s undo-able. One year of not providing abortions internationally would fund it. It could provide work for the unemployed.

 

[Sherry_G]

ABSOLUTELY Responsible means to hold illegals responsible for **their ** actions. It isn’t like illegals are just thrust into this predicament. They chose their illegal activities.

You have failed to prove that your solution is moral …ethical…responsible… workable…or solves the problem. As such, it remains nothing more than your personal theory.

Actually, there already exists a **legitimate path ** - Require 1940 Naturalization laws be upheld. Expect / hold illegals to be accountable to them.

. Why is this anyone sticking their heads in the sand? Prove it’s undo-able. One year of not providing abortions internationally would fund it. It could provide work for the unemployed.

I don’t recall offering a solution…only asking that we provide a PATH. The actual solution cannot be arrived at until we make a pathway. Could anybody make a suggestion that is positive? All I propose is that we start DOING something and stop whining. The “legitimate path” you are referring to is what??? How to implement it?? Got a plan?? lets put that plan into action. That is what I am saying. However, let’s be civilized about it and treat others as you would like to be treated.

12 million people here now that need to be addressed. Congress seems incapable or unwilling to stick their necks out and get anything accomplished. complaining all day long about illegals and saying “hold them accountable” does not accomplish one earthly thing. YOu could go back 5 years or even 10 years or even 15 years. The same old complaints are made today which accomplish zip; zero; nada…
Do I have to prove that it is moral to treat people with respect? I don’t think so. Read your own tag line at the bottom of each one of your posts.

 

[Tigg]

From even a purely business point of view, a warm welcome to immigrants is known to be good for the economy and beneficial for a society.

To welcome the immigrant, to work hard for their legalization and citizenship, to help them feel at home, to treat them as neighbors and allies in the greatest project of human rights and ethnic and religious harmony in history — the United States of America — flows from the bright, noble side of our American character.

To blame them, stalk them, outlaw them, harass them, and consider them outsiders is unbiblical, inhumane, and un-American.

How many Catholics will read the words of the good bishop above and be thrust into feelings of guilt? How many will assume the first comment is a factual statement and not research for themselves the very obvious contradictions? How many will continue to be blinded to the injustices being done to our society and the negative effect on national stability, unity and the continuance of a Free Republic? How many will actually see for themselves that we all are being manipulated and abused by the ruling establishment?

Sometimes the truth is distorted by generalities and simply by not supplying all the facts. Interesting, also, that no distinction is made between legal and illegal.

 

[kimmielittle]

I don’t recall offering a solution…only asking that we provide a PATH. The actual solution cannot be arrived at until we make a pathway. Could anybody make a suggestion that is positive? All I propose is that we start DOING something and stop whining. The “legitimate path” you are referring to is what???

The 1940 Naturalization Laws can be found library.uwb.edu/guides/USimmigration/54%20stat%201137.pdf . These are the laws illegals have made a conscious effort daily ] to break.

How to implement it?? Got a plan?? lets put that plan into action. That is what I am saying.

By holding the Federal - State Government accountable for ALREADY existent laws. Laws in existence since 1940.

However, let’s be civilized about it and treat others as you would like to be treated.

Hmmmm…I don’t see where being called accountable is disrespectful.

Congress seems incapable or unwilling to stick their necks out and get anything accomplished. complaining all day long about illegals and saying “hold them accountable” does not accomplish one earthly thing. YOu could go back 5 years or even 10 years or even 15 years. The same old complaints are made today which accomplish zip; zero; nada…

There are many of us actively involved. Here is a letter from one of my Representatives.

H.r. 133 & H.r. 1940? Thank you for sharing your thoughts
about the serious problems facing our
nation’s immigration system. Hearing from
you helps me better represent Middle
Tennessee.

I want you to know I share your concern
about the growing problem of illegal
immigration. With an estimated 11 to 12
million illegal aliens currently residing in
the United States, this is clearly one of
the most serious issues currently facing our
nation. As you know, it affects jobs,
welfare, and national security.
Accordingly, I have made fixing our
immigration system one of my top priorities.
I believe the way to do this is to focus on
better enforcement of our immigration laws
and enhanced border security.

Regarding illegal aliens receiving
federal benefits, under federal law illegal
aliens are ineligible for federal benefits
including food stamps. Further, illegal
aliens are not eligible for employment in
the U.S. You can report information about
violations of immigration law to the
Immigration and Customs Enforcement Tip Line
at 1-866-347-2423. I encourage you to
report food stamp fraud you see to the
Tennessee food stamp fraud hotline at 1-800-
241-2629 or the U.S. Department of
Agriculture Office of Inspector General at
1-800-424-9121. Food stamp fraud is a
felony.

Regarding automatic citizenship for
“anchor babies,” (children born in the U.S.
to illegal aliens), I co-sponsored
legislation in the last Congress that would
have limited automatic citizenship. H.R.
4213, the TRUE Enforcement and Border
Security Act, would have provided more
border security and increased penalties for
violations of our nation’s immigration laws.
Unfortunately, it was not passed before the
109th Congress adjourned.

You will be pleased to know that
legislation has been introduced in the 110th
Congress to limit automatic citizenship.
Like H.R. 4213, the new bills, H.R. 133, the
Citizenship Reform Act, and H.R. 1940, the
Birthright Citizenship Act, would change
naturalization laws so that a baby born in
the U.S. does not automatically become a
citizen unless the baby’s mother or father
is a legal permanent resident or U.S.
citizen. These bills are pending in the
House Committee on the Judiciary.

Rest assured that I am working hard to
curb the rising number of people that enter
our country illegally at a high cost to
American citizens. I will continue working
to ensure that any legislation passed by
Congress is right for our country and
effectively addresses this problem without
encouraging more illegal immigration.

Again, thank you for your thoughts on
this issue. If in the future I can be of
any assistance to you or your family please
do not hesitate to call me.

Stay in touch,

BART GORDON

bart.gordon@mail.house.gov

.

Do I have to prove that it is moral to treat people with respect? I don’t think so. Read your own tag line at the bottom of each one of your posts.

Respect, is not condoning illegal activities.

 

[St_Francis]

I don’t recall offering a solution…only asking that we provide a PATH. The actual solution cannot be arrived at until we make a pathway. Could anybody make a suggestion that is positive? All I propose is that we start DOING something and stop whining. The “legitimate path” you are referring to is what??? How to implement it?? Got a plan?? lets put that plan into action. That is what I am saying. However, let’s be civilized about it and treat others as you would like to be treated.

12 million people here now that need to be addressed. Congress seems incapable or unwilling to stick their necks out and get anything accomplished. complaining all day long about illegals and saying “hold them accountable” does not accomplish one earthly thing. YOu could go back 5 years or even 10 years or even 15 years. The same old complaints are made today which accomplish zip; zero; nada…
Do I have to prove that it is moral to treat people with respect? I don’t think so. Read your own tag line at the bottom of each one of your posts.

To deal with the situation of immigration or illegal immigration?

WRT legal immigration, I think that we need to consider what we want to accomplish with it. We want to help those in need around the world to find a better life; we want to provide unskilled cheap labor to business people here; <<Those two are the two main things we want to do, it seems like. (These are not really what I would consider the best goals, but they seem to be the most mentioned.)

So, wrt providing labor: definitely institute temporary work visas for those who only want to work here for a while–say, 3-month, 6-month, and 12-month. Those visas should be very easy to get (background and health check), and if someone overstays without a good reason (like being hospitalized) they will not be permitted to get another.

At the same time, crack down on those who employ those here illegally.

For those who want to come for longer periods, but not to stay forever, students and the like, visas again.

I think the above will help reduce the amount of illegal immigration as well, but wrt those already here, I think that we should say that they have a certain amount of time to leave (like 6 months) and that if they are found to be here illegally thereafter, they will be deported and never permitted to return, even if they would be eligible by virtue of being related to someone here. But if they leave now, they will be permitted to apply to return through either the temporary visas or permanently.

After that, *be very strict about illegal entry and overstays. *We have been dealing with this problem since 1986 and our laxity has only contributed to the problem. If we are going to have these laws, we need to enforce them, and if we are not going to enforce them, get rid of the laws and let anyone in. But having these laws and permitting people to flout them like this is a terrible situation.

 

[Tigg]

I don’t recall offering a solution…only asking that we provide a PATH. The actual solution cannot be arrived at until we make a pathway. Could anybody make a suggestion that is positive? All I propose is that we start DOING something and stop whining. The “legitimate path” you are referring to is what??? How to implement it?? Got a plan?? lets put that plan into action. That is what I am saying. However, let’s be civilized about it and treat others as you would like to be treated.

12 million people here now that need to be addressed. Congress seems incapable or unwilling to stick their necks out and get anything accomplished. complaining all day long about illegals and saying “hold them accountable” does not accomplish one earthly thing. YOu could go back 5 years or even 10 years or even 15 years. The same old complaints are made today which accomplish zip; zero; nada…
Do I have to prove that it is moral to treat people with respect? I don’t think so. Read your own tag line at the bottom of each one of your posts.

I saw nothing uncivil or disrespectful in the poster’s comment that you addressed.

A couple of distinctions need to be made (I’ve said this a 1,000 times) the 12 million of which you speak has been the figure used for the last decade despite an increasing influx…some conservative estimates say it is closer to 20-30 million now. But who’s counting, anyway? And Congress is not complaining about the illegals, on the contrary, they want them to come, have enticed them to come and offer all manner of benefits to get them to come.

So are you advocating amnesty as the path, although we granted that in 1986 and all that happened was that even more came over the border which created a larger burden for middle class taxpayers, the lower-class and immigrant wages never rose, and the immigrants continued to be exploited by the partnership of big business and the federal government.

 

[Redtown]

On a previous page I said:

If the open borders you propose lead to just five million new immigrants annually (a conservative estimate), given extended families following and high reproduction rates, we’d be looking at a total US population of 600 million in just 20 years, and 1.2 Billion by 2055 – the current population of China

!!!

So again, just how do you propose to employ, feed, clothe, shelter, educate, and provide heath care to such masses of people? Please don’t give general platitudes, be specific.

None of the proponents of unlimited immigration can deal with that question, as is true in the national debate.

Instead, they consistently rely on emotion and weak general platitudes – charges of “racism”, comparisons to Nazis, appeals to our immigrant-grandparents, God, and “compassion”, etc.

But they never answer in specific, tangible terms,* just how would the US employ, feed, clothe, shelter, educate, and provide heath care to such massive numbers of people? * They live with a kind of cognitive dissonance; when real world considerations challenge their well intentioned sentiments, they just deny the real world considerations.

Those of us who want to limit immigration are winning this debate based on evidence and reason, but the very paradigm of debate is shifting to emotion and mush.

Who says that modern secular liberals are the only ones who ignore evidence-based reason for subjective feelings?

 

[Sherry_G]

On a previous page I said:

None of the proponents of unlimited immigration can deal with that question, as is true in the national debate.

Instead, they consistently rely on emotion and weak general platitudes – charges of “racism”, comparisons to Nazis, appeals to our immigrant-grandparents, God, and “compassion”, etc.

But they never answer in specific, tangible terms,* just how would the US employ, feed, clothe, shelter, educate, and provide heath care to such massive numbers of people? * They live with a kind of cognitive dissonance; when real world considerations challenge their well intentioned sentiments, they just deny the real world considerations.

Those of us who want to limit immigration are winning this debate based on evidence and reason, but the very paradigm of debate is shifting to emotion and mush.

Who says that modern secular liberals are the only ones who ignore evidence-based reason for subjective feelings?

Self-serving post where you are quoting …YOU! Let’s just think about how “we” would employ, feed and house all these people along with the children they will produce. Logically speaking, more people equals more goods and services and housing needed, thereby creating more employment, more housing, more goods and services.

 

[kimmielittle]

Self-serving post where you are quoting …YOU! Let’s just think about how “we” would employ, feed and house all these people along with the children they will produce. Logically speaking, more people equals more goods and services and housing needed, thereby creating more employment, more housing, more goods and services.

Logic deserves temperance with reality. Logically and in reality - what does it cost to provide support services to the 12-30 million illegals already in this country? Are the costs of these support services being equaled out on the created employment…housing…goods? Or are these support services a drain?

Logic would dictate, if they are a drain now. If it doesn’t work now…???

 

[Sherry_G]

Logic deserves temperance with reality. Logically and in reality - what does it cost to provide support services to the 12-30 million illegals already in this country? Are the costs of these support services being equaled out on the created employment…housing…goods? Or are these support services a drain?

Logic would dictate, if they area drain now…???

OK, logically speaking, what if we had not been contracepting ourselves out of existence for the past 50 years and what if we had not aborted 55 million of our babies since the early seventies. How many people would be here today.
You are saying they are a drain. What negative effects are you really suffering?

Maybe these are the replacment players we are now receiving through God’s divine wisdom and mercy.

 

[kimmielittle]

OK, logically speaking, what if we had not been contracepting ourselves out of existence for the past 50 years and what if we had not aborted 55 million of our babies since the early seventies. How many people would be here today.

This is a strawman argument IMHO. Since we can’t take care of our population of poor now.

You are saying they are a drain. What negative effects are you really suffering?

If we aren’t supporting illegals…would not that money be freed - enabling to help better educate…

n OECD’s Programme for International Student Assessment 2003, 15 year olds ranked 24th of 38 in mathematics, 19th of 38 in science, 12th of 38 in reading, and 26th of 38 in problem solving.[99] In the 2006 assessment, the U.S. ranked 35th out of 57 in mathematics and 29th out of 57 in science. Reading scores could not be reported due to printing errors in the instructions of the U.S. test booklets. U.S. scores were far behind those of most other developed nations.

Just one small example : Maybe, If I wasn’t **required ** Yes, mandated law in many states over and above an elective language ]to take Spanish…to accommodate a selected population - I could have an advanced science - math - or music class.

.healthcare…etc etc.
In short this drain hurts everyone of us as citizens.

Maybe these are the replacment players we are now receiving through God’s divine wisdom and mercy.

But, maybe we should be more concerned with helping Mexico overcome it’s inequities, instead of hoping illegal immigrants… somehow, save us.

 

[St_Francis]

On a previous page I said:

None of the proponents of unlimited immigration can deal with that question, as is true in the national debate.

Instead, they consistently rely on emotion and weak general platitudes – charges of “racism”, comparisons to Nazis, appeals to our immigrant-grandparents, God, and “compassion”, etc.

But they never answer in specific, tangible terms,* just how would the US employ, feed, clothe, shelter, educate, and provide heath care to such massive numbers of people? * They live with a kind of cognitive dissonance; when real world considerations challenge their well intentioned sentiments, they just deny the real world considerations.

Those of us who want to limit immigration are winning this debate based on evidence and reason, but the very paradigm of debate is shifting to emotion and mush.

Who says that modern secular liberals are the only ones who ignore evidence-based reason for subjective feelings?

This is a Malthusian argument, which has been discredited so many times since its inception that I am amazed anyone considers it at all.

 

[Sherry_G]

This is a strawman argument IMHO. Since we can’t take care of our population of poor now.
If we aren’t supporting illegals…would not that money be freed - enabling to help better educate…

Just one small example : Maybe, If I wasn’t **required ** Yes, mandated law in many states over and above an elective language ]to take Spanish…to accommodate a selected population - I could have an advanced science - math - or music class.

.healthcare…etc etc.
In short this drain hurts everyone of us as citizens.



But, maybe we should be more concerned with helping Mexico overcome it’s inequities, instead of hoping illegal immigrants… somehow, save us.

Right back at you on the strawman arguments! Our students don’t perform well due to societal ills, not because we have not thrown plenty of money at the education system in this country. We far outspend any other nation on the planet and we are much worse off in the education dept that other countries who spend far less. I was educated in a 4 room Catholic schoolhouse and shared a desk with another student. The class size was 3 times what it is today and I dare say I received a very fine education. Not due to how much money the teacher was paid or any state of the art equipment, just plain old discipline, parents who cared and made sure I studied, etc. So to say that if it weren’t for migrants we would all be so much better educated is not very logical. Our ills in the US are not due to lack of funds.

We are called by Christ to be kind and compassionate. To call those who entered our country illegally criminals is invalid. If it’s criminal to “break into” the land of milk and honey in search of a better life for your family, I say I would be one of them if I had been born into abject poverty with no hope for the future of my children. Some say "It’s not THAT bad. I have been to some parts of MX and yes, it is that bad.

Strawman argument concerning how we ought to be seeing to it somehow that the MX
govt should be treating their own people better, how would you propose we do that? Send troops? Let’s be honest, we can do nothing about their unjust system of government.

Bottom line for me is that no good can come from a country that has turned away from God as we have in the USA. We have not won a war since we began to turn away, in case you haven’t noticed. God is not really on our side and we need to make a change in our selfish attitude. Our country is in economic collapse not due to immigrants, legal or illegal but due to immorality on many levels including greed, corruption, sexual perversions, murdering our own children, so lets stop the madness and start helping ourselves. Be generous and kind and speak out against injustice for all, from the unborn to the immigrant.

 

[Stonez]

this is a response to the original post b/c i don’t want to read all 15 pages of comments.

shouldn’t the issue be about the ILLEGAL