Archbishop of San Francisco warns of coming war on marriage

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God does NOT condone polygamy in the Old Testament, not a single passage. Likewise Christianity and the New Testament do not condone polygamy.
Since God talked to all these Old Testament patriarchs, He could surely have said, “Jacob, it is wrong for you to marry Rachel since you already have a wife.” Or He could have told Abraham that it was wrong for him to also have Hagar as a wife. Or He could have told Solomon who was supposedly very wise that it was wrong for him to have so many wives. But He didn’t as far as we know. Not one place in the Old Testament does God say anything against polygamy.
 
Source: Reuters, March 31, 1998.
Coretta Scott King, speaking four days before the 30th anniversary of her husband’s assassination, said Tuesday the civil rights leader’s memory demanded a strong stand for gay and lesbian rights. “I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice,” she said. “But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, ‘Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.’” “I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people,” she said.

Source: Chicago Defender, April 1, 1998, front page.
Speaking before nearly 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton Hotel,
Coretta Scott King, the wife of the late Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Tuesday called on the civil rights community to join in the struggle against homophobia and anti-gay bias. “Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood,” King stated.

Source: Chicago Sun Times, April 1, 1998, p.18.
“We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny . . . I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be,” she said, quoting her husband. “I’ve always felt that homophobic attitudes and policies were unjust and unworthy of a free society and must be opposed by all Americans who believe in democracy,” King told 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton, days before the 30th anniversary of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination on April 4, 1968. She said the civil rights movement “thrives on unity and inclusion, not division and exclusion.” Her husband’s struggle parallels that of the gay rights movement, she said.

Source: Chicago Tribune, April 1, 1998, sec.2, p.4.
“For many years now, I have been an outspoken supporter of civil and human rights for gay and lesbian people,” King said at the 25th Anniversary Luncheon for the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund… “Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement,” she said. “Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions.”

Source: Coretta Scott King, remarks, Opening Plenary Session, 13th annual Creating Change conference of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, Atlanta, Georgia, November 9, 2000.
“We have a lot more work to do in our common struggle against bigotry and discrimination. I say ‘common struggle’ because I believe very strongly that all forms of bigotry and discrimination are equally wrong and should be opposed by right-thinking Americans everywhere. Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination.”
She should be ashamed of herself for besmirching Dr Kings name by making such a heinous comparison. She is in the minority

A coalition of black pastors have condemned gay marriage, saying it’s incorrect to compare the fight for equal marriage rights to the civil rights movement.
huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/15/black-pastors-gay-marriage-michigan_n_5332496.html

“The fact that American media or other factions erroneously characterize the traditional meaning of ‘marriage’ as being on par with the civil rights deprivations of Black Americans does not make it so,” it stated. “Comparing the dilemmas of same-sex couples to the centuries of discrimination faced by Black Americans is a distortion of our country’s cultural and legal history.”

christiannews.net/2014/05/18/black-pastors-comparing-homosexuality-to-civil-rights-fight-is-distortion-of-history/

Gay Rights Don’t Compare to Civil Rights, Say 100 African-American Pastors

charismanews.com/us/43838-gay-rights-don-t-compare-to-civil-rights-say-100-african-american-pastors

Black Pastors Offended By Homosexual-Civil Rights Comparison

blackcommunitynews.com/100-black-pastors-offended-by-homosexual-civil-rights-comparison/

Black Pastors Condemn Comparison of Gay Rights to Civil Rights: ‘It is Intellectually Empty’

atlantablackstar.com/2014/05/16/coalition-black-pastors-condemn-comparison-gay-rights-civil-rights/

** “I do take offense at that particular community paralleling its movement with the civil rights movement in America,” he says, “because they are trying to put a moral issue over against a human issue. And they really are two completely different entities**.”

vfbaptist.org/articles/articles%20101-200/article00109.htm

Black Pastor Slams Obama Conflating Civil Rights with Same-Sex Marriage

breitbart.com/big-government/2012/08/02/black-pastor-to-obama-i-didn-t-march-one-inch-one-foot-one-yard-for-a-man-to-marry-a-man/
 
Oh come now darlin’, it’s really not that complicated. When you say, “an employee benefit is a civil contract, not a Church teaching,” (a statement with which I whole-heartedly agree), are you agreeing that Catholic hospitals should extend benefits to legally married same sex spouses?

A Catholic Bishop in MO recently had this to say about a Catholic hospital system extending benefits to same sex spouses:

“Recognizing God’s plan for marriage is not a matter of ‘the Church’s position,’ as Mercy characterized it, but rather, one of God’s own Word,” Johnston said. “And while the statement does not specify the ‘government regulations’ Mercy claims to require this change, no believing Christian worthy of the name should violate God’s law because of ‘regulations.’ Our ancestors refused to abandon the faith even when subjected to the cruelty and torture of the Roman Empire, but in our age unspecified ‘regulations,’ government funds, and fear of public ridicule is sufficient in order to secure the compliance of some.”

news-leader.com/story/news/business/2015/01/15/bishop-deeply-concerned-mercy-decision-offer-sex-benefits/21831873/

My question to Bishop Johnston, and to you, if you agree with him is:

If requiring Catholic hospitals to extend benefits to same sex spouses is violating the Church’s religious freedom…having the effect of forcing the Church to endorse gay marriage, then how is extending benefits to divorced and remarried couples (with no nullification of the previous marriage), not also an endorsement of divorce and adultery? Why the inconsistency?
You need to drop the “darlin’” and other uncharitable references and simply respond to the post.

As to your question, once again you are confusing two completely different issues. There is a huge difference between divorced and remarried Catholics who may not properly present themselves for Communion and recognition of gay marriage by an employer. To obtain employee benefits the employer doesn’t ask about your marital history. If an employee is divorced three times it’s not going to be a part of the employee record. How would they even know? The extension of benefits SPECIFICALLY to same sex partners makes a public statement about complicity with a grave sin and a scandal.
 
Since God talked to all these Old Testament patriarchs, He could surely have said, “Jacob, it is wrong for you to marry Rachel since you already have a wife.” Or He could have told Abraham that it was wrong for him to also have Hagar as a wife. Or He could have told Solomon who was supposedly very wise that it was wrong for him to have so many wives. But He didn’t as far as we know. Not one place in the Old Testament does God say anything against polygamy.
This is an issue for another thread. It has been covered here on CAF and throughout Christendom many, many places and times. I am repeating what mainstream Christianity teaches regarding polygamy. (and has always taught)

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=303696
 
She should be ashamed of herself for besmirching Dr Kings name by making such a heinous comparison. She is in the minority

A coalition of black pastors have condemned gay marriage, saying it’s incorrect to compare the fight for equal marriage rights to the civil rights movement.
huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/15/black-pastors-gay-marriage-michigan_n_5332496.html

“The fact that American media or other factions erroneously characterize the traditional meaning of ‘marriage’ as being on par with the civil rights deprivations of Black Americans does not make it so,” it stated. “Comparing the dilemmas of same-sex couples to the centuries of discrimination faced by Black Americans is a distortion of our country’s cultural and legal history.”

christiannews.net/2014/05/18/black-pastors-comparing-homosexuality-to-civil-rights-fight-is-distortion-of-history/

Gay Rights Don’t Compare to Civil Rights, Say 100 African-American Pastors

charismanews.com/us/43838-gay-rights-don-t-compare-to-civil-rights-say-100-african-american-pastors

Black Pastors Offended By Homosexual-Civil Rights Comparison

blackcommunitynews.com/100-black-pastors-offended-by-homosexual-civil-rights-comparison/

Black Pastors Condemn Comparison of Gay Rights to Civil Rights: ‘It is Intellectually Empty’

atlantablackstar.com/2014/05/16/coalition-black-pastors-condemn-comparison-gay-rights-civil-rights/

** “I do take offense at that particular community paralleling its movement with the civil rights movement in America,” he says, “because they are trying to put a moral issue over against a human issue. And they really are two completely different entities**.”

vfbaptist.org/articles/articles%20101-200/article00109.htm

Black Pastor Slams Obama Conflating Civil Rights with Same-Sex Marriage

breitbart.com/big-government/2012/08/02/black-pastor-to-obama-i-didn-t-march-one-inch-one-foot-one-yard-for-a-man-to-marry-a-man/
Thank you. Very informative.

Ed
 
Thank you. Very informative.

Ed
Not to mention Alveda King, who works with Priests for Life: “Neither my great-grandfather, an NAACP founder, my grandfather Dr. Martin Luther King Sr., an NAACP leader, my father Rev. A. D. Williams King, nor my uncle Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. embraced the homosexual agenda that the current NAACP is attempting to label as a civil rights agenda. In the 21st century, the anti-traditional marriage community is in league with the anti-life community, and together with the NAACP and other sympathizers, they are seeking a world where homosexual marriage and abortion will supposedly set the captives free.”
 
You need to drop the “darlin’” and other uncharitable references and simply respond to the post.

As to your question, once again you are confusing two completely different issues. There is a huge difference between divorced and remarried Catholics who may not properly present themselves for Communion and recognition of gay marriage by an employer. To obtain employee benefits the employer doesn’t ask about your marital history. If an employee is divorced three times it’s not going to be a part of the employee record. How would they even know? The extension of benefits SPECIFICALLY to same sex partners makes a public statement about complicity with a grave sin and a scandal.
That is the issue. By enshrining gay sexual behavior as “marriage” then “it’s legal so it must be OK” will become the perception for too many, as opposed to the truth.

Ed
 
You need to drop the “darlin’” and other uncharitable references and simply respond to the post.

As to your question, once again you are confusing two completely different issues. There is a huge difference between divorced and remarried Catholics who may not properly present themselves for Communion and recognition of gay marriage by an employer. To obtain employee benefits the employer doesn’t ask about your marital history. If an employee is divorced three times it’s not going to be a part of the employee record. How would they even know? The extension of benefits SPECIFICALLY to same sex partners makes a public statement about complicity with a grave sin and a scandal.
You can not be serious. Uncharitable? I’ve driven thru a fast food line or bought something at a grocery store and the person waiting on me has called me darlin. And I’ve been called honey and sweetie. That’s just how some people speak. Never once did I think they were being uncharitable. I was called darlin earlier on this thread. And if the poster meant for it to be uncharitable, that one sure went over my head.
 
She should be ashamed of herself for besmirching Dr Kings name by making such a heinous comparison. She is in the minority

A coalition of black pastors have condemned gay marriage, saying it’s incorrect to compare the fight for equal marriage rights to the civil rights movement.
huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/15/black-pastors-gay-marriage-michigan_n_5332496.html

“The fact that American media or other factions erroneously characterize the traditional meaning of ‘marriage’ as being on par with the civil rights deprivations of Black Americans does not make it so,” it stated. “Comparing the dilemmas of same-sex couples to the centuries of discrimination faced by Black Americans is a distortion of our country’s cultural and legal history.”

christiannews.net/2014/05/18/black-pastors-comparing-homosexuality-to-civil-rights-fight-is-distortion-of-history/

Gay Rights Don’t Compare to Civil Rights, Say 100 African-American Pastors

charismanews.com/us/43838-gay-rights-don-t-compare-to-civil-rights-say-100-african-american-pastors

Black Pastors Offended By Homosexual-Civil Rights Comparison

blackcommunitynews.com/100-black-pastors-offended-by-homosexual-civil-rights-comparison/

Black Pastors Condemn Comparison of Gay Rights to Civil Rights: ‘It is Intellectually Empty’

atlantablackstar.com/2014/05/16/coalition-black-pastors-condemn-comparison-gay-rights-civil-rights/

** “I do take offense at that particular community paralleling its movement with the civil rights movement in America,” he says, “because they are trying to put a moral issue over against a human issue. And they really are two completely different entities**.”

vfbaptist.org/articles/articles%20101-200/article00109.htm

Black Pastor Slams Obama Conflating Civil Rights with Same-Sex Marriage

breitbart.com/big-government/2012/08/02/black-pastor-to-obama-i-didn-t-march-one-inch-one-foot-one-yard-for-a-man-to-marry-a-man/
Love it - now this is what I call a helpful master list! 👍
 
You feel it is a bad idea. But you concede that your argument for gay marriage and your definition of marriage logically allow for it.
Where do you claim I concede that?
You are assuming a moral difference between the two (gay marriage vs. polygamy) but you have nothing whatsoever to support that claim.
You just quoted me saying that I base that on what I consider to be objective evidence!:rolleyes:
 
You can not be serious. Uncharitable? I’ve driven thru a fast food line or bought something at a grocery store and the person waiting on me has called me darlin. That’s just how some people speak. Never once did I think they were being uncharitable.
Ah, but you are charitable, so you don’t automatically assume the worst.
 
She should be ashamed of herself for besmirching Dr Kings name by making such a heinous comparison. She is in the minority

A coalition of black pastors have condemned gay marriage, saying it’s incorrect to compare the fight for equal marriage rights to the civil rights movement.
huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/15/black-pastors-gay-marriage-michigan_n_5332496.html

“The fact that American media or other factions erroneously characterize the traditional meaning of ‘marriage’ as being on par with the civil rights deprivations of Black Americans does not make it so,” it stated. “Comparing the dilemmas of same-sex couples to the centuries of discrimination faced by Black Americans is a distortion of our country’s cultural and legal history.”

christiannews.net/2014/05/18/black-pastors-comparing-homosexuality-to-civil-rights-fight-is-distortion-of-history/

Gay Rights Don’t Compare to Civil Rights, Say 100 African-American Pastors

charismanews.com/us/43838-gay-rights-don-t-compare-to-civil-rights-say-100-african-american-pastors

Black Pastors Offended By Homosexual-Civil Rights Comparison

blackcommunitynews.com/100-black-pastors-offended-by-homosexual-civil-rights-comparison/

Black Pastors Condemn Comparison of Gay Rights to Civil Rights: ‘It is Intellectually Empty’

atlantablackstar.com/2014/05/16/coalition-black-pastors-condemn-comparison-gay-rights-civil-rights/

** “I do take offense at that particular community paralleling its movement with the civil rights movement in America,” he says, “because they are trying to put a moral issue over against a human issue. And they really are two completely different entities**.”

vfbaptist.org/articles/articles%20101-200/article00109.htm

Black Pastor Slams Obama Conflating Civil Rights with Same-Sex Marriage

breitbart.com/big-government/2012/08/02/black-pastor-to-obama-i-didn-t-march-one-inch-one-foot-one-yard-for-a-man-to-marry-a-man/
It hardly matters what some black pastors believe. Better to look to Martin Luther King who wrote in his famous Letter from Birmingham County Jail, “We know from painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed.”

King goes on to say: “Let me rush on to mention another disappointment. I have been so greatly disappointed with the white church and its leadership…I felt that the white ministers, priests and rabbis of the South would be some of our strongest allies. Instead, some of them have been outright opponents, refusing to understand the freedom movement and misrepresenting its leaders; all too many others have been more cautious than courageous and have remained silent behind the anesthetizing security of the stained-glass windows.”

So just because a bunch of white pastors, priests and rabbis didn’t support King, that does not mean that he was wrong. And just because a bunch of black pastors do not support gay rights, that does not mean that it is wrong for LGBT people to seek justice.
 
You can not be serious. Uncharitable? I’ve driven thru a fast food line or bought something at a grocery store and the person waiting on me has called me darlin. And I’ve been called honey and sweetie. That’s just how some people speak. Never once did I think they were being uncharitable. I was called darlin earlier on this thread. And if the poster meant for it to be uncharitable, that one sure went over my head.
Respond to posts not posters. Also decidedly off topic.
 
It hardly matters what some black pastors believe. Better to look to Martin Luther King who wrote in his famous Letter from Birmingham County Jail, “We know from painful experience that freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed.”

King goes on to say: “Let me rush on to mention another disappointment. I have been so greatly disappointed with the white church and its leadership…I felt that the white ministers, priests and rabbis of the South would be some of our strongest allies. Instead, some of them have been outright opponents, refusing to understand the freedom movement and misrepresenting its leaders; all too many others have been more cautious than courageous and have remained silent behind the anesthetizing security of the stained-glass windows.”

So just because a bunch of white pastors, priests and rabbis didn’t support King, that does not mean that he was wrong. So just because a bunch of black pastors do not support gay rights, that does not mean that it is wrong for LGBT people to seek justice.
Justice in what way? Black people are easy to identify. Their skin color is 100% recognizable. Anyone can and should control their personal sexual behavior because we all have that choice.

Ed
 
Justice in what way? Black people are easy to identify. Their skin color is 100% recognizable. Anyone can and should control their personal sexual behavior because we all have that choice.

Ed
I personally believe we should exercise charity in this area; this is one of the toughest things to do in life. (We can all probably agree on that.) I still have a duty to oppose gay marriage though. I don’t want to sidetrack this discussion.
 
Above is your definition of marriage. Does it preclude polygamy?
Again, that is not my ‘definition’ of marriage, but what I think marriage is mainly about, as opposed to just sex acts.

I could as well claim that you assert marriage is ‘defined’ as a sex act, so both rape and polygamy would be ‘marriage’ - but such childish strawman arguments are a waste of time. Just like you trying to dictate to me what my ‘definition’ of marriage is.

But since you raise the point, no my ‘definition’ of the word ‘marriage’ would exclude neither polygamous, incestuous, underage or forced marriages, as the word ‘marriage’ is used to refer to all those things. That doesn’t mean that I approve of such marriages, just that I am willing to support my reasons for disapproving rationally rather than dogmatically insisting that ‘marriage’ is defined to exclude them.🤷
 
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