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Randolph
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ConcernedConvert
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It really is sad to see the changes to the liturgy with Vatican 2. A great book that outlines the changes is Lex Orandi Lex Credendi. It talks about the changes made and why this in itself watered down the teachings within the liturgy. Sections removed that avoid “hard teachings”.
Mark121359
Well-known member
And most of the people I know personally who attend the EF exclusively are very family oriented, decent down to earth good people, who are unified in their love for the Latin Mass and tradition.
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Randolph
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The haters just simply can’t help themselves—so sad…Gotta stick it to the backward thinking “traditionalists” who have yet been enlightened. I attend both the OF and the EF. I have met many of the finest people and families in both forms of the Mass.
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PetraG
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No, the Archbishop is right…“that door swings both ways, as they say.”
Maybe this is just me, but I don’t think we will unite by characterizing people according to a fault. Who hears somebody call them a “hater” and has a change of heart from that? I don’t think that works.
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Randolph
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You are right. I should not have written that. It lacked charity. It was the heat of the moment. It was wrong.
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PetraG
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It is really easy to do, though, especially in times like these when (honestly) it seems toned down compared to the norm. I know (and confess) that I do it, too.
I think one of the down sides (if that is the right word) of Catholics being mainstreamed and accepted (as is just for everyone to be–don’t get me wrong!) is that it can be a bit harder to keep to the standards of the Gospel that we know instead of hitting a standard that is merely a bit better than average.
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angell1
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and he is absolutely correct. I’ve had similar thoughts lately, that all this arguing over this kinds of issues are divisions from satan
I’ve noticed a similar trend about the issue of married priests, the hateful words and vitrol that some people will put out is just disturbing.
I think the issue is deeper though, bottom line is, what language mass is said in, exactly how the ligurgy is laid out, how the building is constructed, how to receive communion eTC… are disciplines and the pope, as the successor of peter, has the authority to change them as he sees fit to help the growinig needs of the church, eve if it isn’t to one’s liking.
it’s actually quite disheartening to see the lack of catechesis in this area, these simply do not become issues of morality
I’ve noticed a similar trend about the issue of married priests, the hateful words and vitrol that some people will put out is just disturbing.
I think the issue is deeper though, bottom line is, what language mass is said in, exactly how the ligurgy is laid out, how the building is constructed, how to receive communion eTC… are disciplines and the pope, as the successor of peter, has the authority to change them as he sees fit to help the growinig needs of the church, eve if it isn’t to one’s liking.
it’s actually quite disheartening to see the lack of catechesis in this area, these simply do not become issues of morality
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MiserereMeiDei
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CRV
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My experience is the exact opposite of yours.
In my parish a lot of people were and are anti-EF and at the time of it being introduced were very vocal including to our Archbishop, and truly awful towards the priests - the way they were treated, so disrespectful. They don’t attend the Mass, but ignore those who do attend the EF Mass.
Happily most of the people I know who attend the EF with me, also on occasion attend the earlier OF (as I witnessed this morning), and those who attend exclusively I personally have not heard a bad word about the OF.
The division is real and my personal experience (see above wrt my own parish) and the resentment and drawing up the bridges when anyone mentions the EF and how it’s too rigid, and not with the spirit, and too stifling, and not with the times, not relatable to todays’ Catholics, going back to the dark ages, and the trump card of it’s clericalism - deliberate exclusion of the laity from being involved, etc etc etc. and this is being perpetuated by those who exclusively attend the OF.
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PetraG
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I’m not sure, and I hesitate to say this, but taking your post as a whole, I think you just implied that half of the Church, perhaps even the majority of those baptized, is possessed or under the control of the devil, and that half of the Church must be annihilated in some sense? Your characterization of the Church as “two houses locked in an existential battle where victory for one is the annihilation of the other” implies that the Church is, truth be known, in schism.
If that is what you mean–which is to say, if you’re not employing some degree of hyperbole–you’re going way beyond what could be remotely called a “slight disagreement” with Archbishop Sample, I’d say?
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CilladeRoma
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I never said they weren’t good people.
They just have an attitude toward the OF that is not healthy, in my opinion.
They just have an attitude toward the OF that is not healthy, in my opinion.
Crusader13
New member
It is difficult to admit but there is division in the Church today. I think the liturgy is sometimes used as the unofficial way to distinguish one group from the other, it has almost become an insignia if you will.
However, the division itself encompasses a wide range of practices and views and unfortunately the gap has only grown wider. We see it today and often times it is argued and debated right here in these forums.
Wherever we talk about idols and pagan practices in the Church or privileged vs non privileged routes to heaven, women’s roles in the Church, social justice issues; these are just the tip of the iceberg, but it does shed some light on where people tend to place themselves in this division.
However, the division itself encompasses a wide range of practices and views and unfortunately the gap has only grown wider. We see it today and often times it is argued and debated right here in these forums.
Wherever we talk about idols and pagan practices in the Church or privileged vs non privileged routes to heaven, women’s roles in the Church, social justice issues; these are just the tip of the iceberg, but it does shed some light on where people tend to place themselves in this division.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
Although his motive was to heal the division which as he stated the movement was led by Archbishop Lefebvre, founder of SSPX, it had the opposite effect. I caused more division as one group sees the Novus Ordo as borderline heresy and the other group sees the TLM as a return to the past of being told to be quite and obey.
It appears that you don’t like Cardinal Sean O’Malley , but it was Pope Benedict XVI who had him on the commission which helped the Pope to come to his decision in issuing Motu Proprio
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PetraG
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I think it is important to distinguish between practices–which of course can be illicit or abusive of the liturgy–and persons, particularly the motives of the persons. Done in the right way, it is a spiritual work of mercy to admonish the sinner, counsel the doubtful and instruct the ignorant. This isn’t a decision between relativism and conflict. There is a third way.
We know, after all, what Our Lord thinks of sentiments like, “thank you, Lord, for not making me like this sinner.” We are taught and commanded to have the attitude that we are inclined to forgive a fellow servant who owes us much less than the debt we ourselves have been relieved of.
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Mark121359
Well-known member
Generally speaking, people who are described as divisive and hostile wouldn’t be considered “good” people. But maybe it’s just me.
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PetraG
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We don’t have the standing to declare ourselves “good” people and other people as something else.
Remember Our Lord’s parable of the servant who was forgiven his debt and then turned around and throttled someone who owed that servant a fraction of what he himself had been forgiven. It was with good reason that the other servants were shaken, and reported him to his Master. It did not go well with that servant, we know that. We cannot judge others–others themselves, not what they do!–as less than ourselves and yet consider ourselves to have a fear of the Lord.
I don’t mean this as a correction of you, but just a comment on the perils of the whole “good people” thing. As we fear the Lord as the only Just Judge, we have to stay away from that.
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CatholicELATeacher
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How I wish there was an OCSP parish near me. How Mass in English should be done!
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PetraG
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We ought to remember that even in the early Church there were divisions. There were people teaching things that weren’t true, there were even disagreements and questions that had to be settled by the legitimate Magesterium. These things happen. I think the Archbishop’s point is that we must be vigilant, lest our inevitable differences be exploited by the evil one to divide us. He is not saying to dilute what the Church teaches!! If you know him, you know he does not do that! He is not saying that some may not, from time to time, “go away sad” as the rich young man did (at least initially–we don’t know if he ever came back). He is saying that we ourselves should remain patient and kind to all, to promote the best liturgical practices with joy, whether the Mass is offered in the EF or the OF, and so deny the evil one opportunities that we might have given to him, had we been less mindful of the possible consequences when our attitudes and actions become careless in that regard.
The best liturgical practices are a joy. This is my opinion coming now, but it comes from my experience: Any kind of change is a source of anxiety in some. There is a reason that a horse sometimes has to be blind-folded to get it out of a burning barn! We are hard-wired to be anxious when things change. We might be changing from a terrible school to a great school, but changing schools causes anxiety! This is particularly true when someone is making a change we didn’t initially think we wanted at all. There is a way to improve liturgical practices that is abrupt and causes anxiety and there is a way that is welcoming and brings people along in a more gradual way that respects that they are going to come around at their own pace. Some are going to be determined to not come around at all, true, but with many others the way that changes are made and what kind of relationship they have with those they see as making the changes makes an enormous difference. We are more willing to make changes for people we think like and respect us, right? We’re more willing to put aside our own preferences for people we know put aside their preferences for us. Human nature doesn’t change to fit some theoretical ideal. People will do things that please other people whom they love and know love and respect them that they will rebel at when the same changes are coming from people they think don’t like them or who act like they look down on them. The “you’re not OK but you’ll be OK after I teach you to think like me” attitude is really hard to take, right? We’ve all gotten it, we know how that feels.
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Randolph
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I thought you wanted to move on… Interesting…
I will leave you with these thoughts. You need to realize your opinions are just your opinions—not facts. The Summorum Pontificum was a great gift for the Church—not a compromise to members of the SSPX. In time, it will yield fruits in abundance. It is here to stay. The EF is with the Church regardless what will happen to the ongoing talks with the SSPX. The EF can be said anywhere at anytime on the planet. More people are attending it and are staying with it. The alleged division exists only in the heads and in the hearts of those who oppose it—quite sad really. They feel threatened by it and by its organic growth. Pope Benedict went to great length to explain the SP was about unity—not division. You should read it again. I just wish those with prejudice against the EF (or the OF for that matter) would just realize that they are actually harming the unity in the Church.
I like Cardinal O’Malley just fine. He has done very good work. Don’t make false accusations about people, and stay on points. It’s very unbecoming.
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