Archbishop Sample: A House Divided Cannot Stand

[CRV]

imo, I think the OF Mass should be celebrated Ad Orientum only, then is when it would more closely resemble the EF. I don’t have any issue with the Mass being celebrated in the vernacular.

I do have a problem with all the old High Altars being destroyed and removed, the communion rails being removed, the statues and beautiful Stations of the Cross paintings being removed and in the case of the S.of the C. being replaced with small, bland representations instead, the stands for votive candles being removed from most of the Churches around me (one has electric bulbs in place of candles, with a switch to flick for each bulb … I’ll say no more on that), all of which to my knowledge was not ordered to be done in any Vatican II document.

 

[Randolph]

I was responding to a poster who made the false allegation that Summorum Pontificum was “a compromise to members of the SSPX”, and it causes division in the Church. After he could not provide evidence to support his allegation, I quoted words in the accompanying letter written by Pope Benedict himself emphasizing the SP was about unity in the Church—not division. Pope Benedict wrote in part:

“ …I now come to the positive reason which motivated my decision to issue this Motu Proprio updating that of 1988. It is a matter of coming to an interior reconciliation in the heart of the Church. Looking back over the past, to the divisions which in the course of the centuries have rent the Body of Christ, one continually has the impression that, at critical moments when divisions were coming about, not enough was done by the Church’s leaders to maintain or regain reconciliation and unity. One has the impression that omissions on the part of the Church have had their share of blame for the fact that these divisions were able to harden. This glance at the past imposes an obligation on us today: to make every effort to enable for all those who truly desire unity to remain in that unity or to attain it anew. I think of a sentence in the Second Letter to the Corinthians, where Paul writes: “Our mouth is open to you, Corinthians; our heart is wide. You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted in your own affections. In return … widen your hearts also!” ( 2 Cor 6:11-13). Paul was certainly speaking in another context, but his exhortation can and must touch us too, precisely on this subject. Let us generously open our hearts and make room for everything that the faith itself allows.

There is no contradiction between the two editions of the Roman Missal. In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture. What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful. It behooves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place. Needless to say, in order to experience full communion, the priests of the communities adhering to the former usage cannot, as a matter of principle, exclude celebrating according to the new books. The total exclusion of the new rite would not in fact be consistent with the recognition of its value and holiness…”

http://www.vatican.va/content/bened.../hf_ben-xvi_let_20070707_lettera-vescovi.html

 

[Emeraldlady]

The solution is not to pretend that it is not important or profitable to do important things well. The solution is to guard against the tactics that will be always used to bring that down.
This is a prevalent tactic being used against us in the Church regardless of what it is that we’re trying to do well. We have to be aware!

I think that looks like blame shifting. Saves people having to look deeply into their own hearts for fault. I’ve seen loads of completely unprovoked judgement of non traditional practices and people, that were quickly deleted by Admin. People can’t keep blaming someone else for their own behaviour. Even if you believed that was true Jesus said turn the other cheek.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

As I said, that must be the American experience.

No, Catholics worldwide have always fought for the Church, for the faith. The Church has always been under attack.

Any annoyances with things these people had about changes was so minimal in the life of a Catholic.

So, yes, the complaints of the past generation regarding the Church would be minimal compared to today because the problems we are facing today in the Church, they did not face.
The sex abuse crisis was not a public scandal at that time. Learning that seminaries had been corrupted by someone like Cardinal McCarrick had not been heard of at the time. People still had reverence when walking into the Church and one other thing, there wasn’t the internet in the past to hear everyone’s opinions as we do today. Opinions were there, they just weren’t heard the same way.

Living as an old fashioned Catholic was by far more focused on prayer, Eucharist, Confession and witness of obedience to the Church,

Yes, and this is what we should be doing. Obeying the Church: Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium

We are in the worst crisis we have been in for a long time, we need to be faithful Catholics.

 

[PetraG]

I think that looks like blame shifting. Saves people having to look deeply into their own hearts for fault. I’ve seen loads of completely unprovoked judgement of non traditional practices and people, that were quickly deleted by Admin. People can’t keep blaming someone else for their own behaviour. Even if you believed that was true Jesus said turn the other cheek.

I’m sorry, that was a sloppy post on my part. By “tactics that will always be used to bring that down,” I mean the tactics of the devil that Archbishop Sample was talking about. When we strive for excellence in serving the Lord, the devil will seek to undermine that–that is, to poision our works and to turn us from seeing clearly what we are about. How to do that? Tempt us to pride. Tempt us to concentrate on some praiseworthy activity but at the expense of some other necessary things, like charity towards all or our personal prayer life or our other duties that are more “boring” than going to a Mass that edifies us (or whatever). Tempt us to value some vital aspect of our service of God over the whole reason we do it, which is to advance in love of God and neighbor. When we really want to do the will of God, the devil is still going to prowl and look for ways to bring us down and to use our fall to bring others down or to slow them down. If we’re lukewarm and asleep, the devil might just leave us to sleep walking and protect us from being roused. If we’re roused, though, the attack has to be more direct. Hell won’t let us continue unabated to the goal, if there is any opportunity at all to deter us from grace. (This is especially true of anyone that might be a model for others, of course.)

 

[PetraG]

I think it helps to remind ourselves that whatever it is that we know more about or appreciate more or that edifies us more–that is a grace! We don’t deserve it. That is a great gift that maybe we have because we would be too weak to advance in virtue without it. We don’t know why, except that we know we have been relieved of such great debts that we could never really rationally dream that we deserve it. If someone is dragged off of the battlefield and into a field hospital and has their wounds dressed, is that person “better” than someone not given that succor yet? Of course not! Could those who have not known the great relief we have known, could they value it less? Well, of course! And if we act as if what has saved us has actually crippled us in the work of the Great Battle, if we seem less charitable or merciful than when we left the field, is that on the care we received? Is it not on us? Who will want that care, if it does not make us seem to be better co-workers in the field? This is why we have to be careful that we don’t sully the graces given to us by perhaps accepting them for our own consolation and maybe even becoming defensive lest we lose them, but not using them to advance in the cardinal virtues. If we advance in the virtues, though, there will be those who say, “I am wary of the place, but I can see how those who go in come out different, and I want that” or “I don’t know if I want that, but I do know that I really want HER to have that, because wow, it makes a difference in her.”

That is what the Archbishop meant, I think.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Well said. Amazing grace!

 

[stpurl]

I did no twisting at all. I simply reported what YOU said.
And by the way, since I and my mom (age 90) 'lived with the TLM before Vatican II and “do want it back”, your premise is shown to be incorrect here as well.

YOU said what you said, Jim. I simply pointed out where you went astray.

 

[stpurl]

And there are plenty of us who might be boomers by age but NEVER rejected the EF, and always, even back in the 1970s and 1980s prior to Pope St. John Paul 2’s ‘loosening’, asked to have it since it was never abrogated.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

And there are plenty of us who might be boomers by age but NEVER rejected the EF, and always, even back in the 1970s and 1980s prior to Pope St. John Paul 2’s ‘loosening’, asked to have it since it was never abrogated

Yes, absolutely. That includes me and others I know of also.

 

[stpurl]

This will probably not stay long but:

I find it sad that on these forums it’s always the “EF” and “traditionalists” who appear to be ‘at fault’, ‘divisive’, etc. etc.

But it’s perfectly all right for someone who is careful not to say, “I prefer the OF” just to come on and bash the EF through reporting slanted or biased information as ‘fact’, to come on and anecdotally keep up the tired old “I went to an EF and they were so mean”, to come on and cherry pick quotes from respected priests which are made to present people who like the EF as being ‘the problem’.

I try to keep scrupulously accurate in what I say and what I report as factual, because I would do that in any case, and if I happen to err, I accept correction and apologize for getting something wrong. I’m especially careful on any topic which could be construed as ‘traditional’ in any way because it is very apparent that ‘non-traditional", "OF’ Catholics can say whatever they please but Traditional people have to fall all over themselves disclaiming any kind of radicalism or any kind of preference save on the grounds of ‘personal liking’. . .and lately that is usually met with ridicule anyway and “you can’t possibly like that mumbo-jumbo hateful antiSemitic divisive rite that 'was only brought up for the SSPX anyway”.

Yet those who enjoy the OF can post constantly how it’s so perfect and wonderful and how their parents wept tears of joy because they no longer had to struggle with evil Latin and how the sign of peace is so unifying and the priest looks at you and now everything is so wonderful because it is not the evil old EF. . .

You say you enjoy the silence and contemplation and you happen to love Latin and, 'But but but evil! But but but priest ignores you! But but but no community interaction! But but but you aren’t participating! Don’t tell me you don’t just sit there and say the rosary because you’re ignorant! I know you do!"

And when you respond once again to these libels and twists, you are the one who is causing division. . .

Because you refuse to accept the narrative of “OF good, EF bad” that for some people seems to be the 11th commandment.

When it’s always one group (EF) that is singled out as the division-causer, you’re going to keep on having division, because the other group (OF) is refusing to acknowledge its part in the problem. Until they do, we can’t have a true solution.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

My grandmother was Australian. Born in 1917. She very much missed the old mass, hated the changes, hated what they did to the churches. You aren’t the voice of Australian Catholics. She grieved over the loss. It was cruel.

 

[Emeraldlady]

I think it’s obvious that the traditional movement has degrees of extremists, very vocal about criticising everyone and everything that isn’t ‘traditional’ in there eyes. As I said Fr Ripperger mentions recently that the Priests in the community are noticing this toxic attitude and getting people to check themselves because it is doing more harm than good to the cause.

 

[CatholicELATeacher]

Let’s not forget the missals full of bland jingles and pop tunes, etc. And music directors setting the Our Father to a polka melody or the Lamb of God sounding like elevator music.

Had my first taste of the Ignatius Pew Missal this past year–superior!

 

[Emeraldlady]

Let’s not forget the missals full of bland jingles and pop tunes, etc. And music directors setting the Our Father to a polka melody or the Lamb of God sounding like elevator music.

Had my first taste of the Ignatius Pew Missal this past year–superior!

These were all good people doing their best to provide services for the Church. Stop insulting us and them.

 

[CatholicELATeacher]

Yeah, right. Banal praise band music is insulting to the Mass.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Yeah, right.

It is so insulting that people can just criticise and criticise and criticise others who have given their time and devotion to making the Mass exist for the rest of us who perhaps haven’t got the time or talent to contribute. I can’t imagine feeling so ungrateful and petty about things. It’s in insult to Christ at the end of the day.

 

[steph03]

Can’t help you on the rosary, but with the Saint Joseph chaplet and Holy Face chaplet I tend to use both hands

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I do have a problem with all the old High Altars being destroyed and removed, the communion rails being removed, the statues and beautiful Stations of the Cross paintings being removed and in the case of the S.of the C. being replaced with small, bland representations instead, the stands for votive candles being removed from most of the Churches around me (one has electric bulbs in place of candles, with a switch to flick for each bulb …

These things bother me also. I am glad to see there is a work to restore the beauty of the churches.

 

[CatholicELATeacher]

Perhaps some are just poorly catechized, and don’t understand what the Church has decreed liturgical music should be. Not that there is any excuse for a paid music minister to remain ignorant of Sacrosanctum Concilium.