Archbishop Sample: A House Divided Cannot Stand

[CatholicELATeacher]

I flag personal attacks.

 

[CatholicELATeacher]

I thank God I’m in a position to educate youth about orthodox Catholicism. I’ve taught them basic Theology of the Body; we’ve read from St. Josemaria Escriva and Cardinal Sarah and I’ll soon commence reading them passages from The Catechism of St. Pius X and The Imitation of Christ. We’ve watched Into Great Silence and I’ve played Gregorian chant for them (though they are exposed to plainchant prayers in our parish school Mass, at least, once a week). And I need to acquaint them with the Ignatius Pew Missal–what a treasure!

God put me in my position. I will give my students what they need (and that ain’t modernism).

 

[PetraG]

This will probably not stay long but:

I find it sad that on these forums it’s always the “EF” and “traditionalists” who appear to be ‘at fault’, ‘divisive’, etc. etc.

Let’s be clear that the Archbishop said that the door swings both ways. He was particularly exhorting those who love the EF because he was giving the homily at a Mass in the EF.

I think it’s obvious that the traditional movement has degrees of extremists…

Pretty much every movement does. We live in that kind of a time. I don’t know why it is, but it is. We get stirred up a lot. Maybe, too, we can mutter under our breaths and have it heard around the world?

 

[CRV]

Let’s not forget the missals full of bland jingles and pop tunes, etc. And music directors setting the Our Father to a polka melody or the Lamb of God sounding like elevator music.

Had my first taste of the Ignatius Pew Missal this past year–superior!

A lot of hymns that found there way into our hymnals over the past decade probably should have been left out.

These were all good people doing their best to provide services for the Church.

Whilst they did their best and tried to make the hymns reverent they were also trying to fit them into what was then believed to be the right direction hymns should take. Their intentions were certainly honorable.

But that doesn’t mean that we can’t objectively criticize various hymns that ‘missed the mark’ - for whatever reasons. And if we are to improve our hymns to God, then it is praiseworthy to lift the bar and aim higher.

Besides there were a lot of hymns that got left out perhaps because some were considered too old fashioned, or we don’t want to focus on being sinners or the reality of purgatory e.g. Help Lord the Souls that Thou Hast Made or God of Mercy & Compassion

 

[CRV]

I think it’s obvious that the traditional movement has degrees of extremists, very vocal about criticising everyone and everything that isn’t ‘traditional’ in there eyes

It’s my experience that around where I am the exact reverse is true, and by swapping the parties around in you statement, it would then read as - “I think it’s obvious that the adherents of the OF have degrees of extremists, very vocal about criticising everyone and everything that is traditional in their eyes”.

When it’s always one group (EF) that is singled out as the division-causer, you’re going to keep on having division, because the other group (OF) is refusing to acknowledge its part in the problem. Until they do, we can’t have a true solution.

And there is the crux of the problem.

 

[Emeraldlady]

Whilst they did their best and tried to make the hymns reverent they were also trying to fit them into what was then believed to be the right direction hymns should take. Their intentions were certainly honorable.

But that doesn’t mean that we can’t objectively criticize various hymns that ‘missed the mark’ - for whatever reasons. And if we are to improve our hymns to God, then it is praiseworthy to lift the bar and aim higher.

Besides there were a lot of hymns that got left out perhaps because some were considered too old fashioned, or we don’t want to focus on being sinners or the reality of purgatory e.g. Help Lord the Souls that Thou Hast Made or God of Mercy & Compassion

I think that in all areas of community service/education etc we can look back and see where things weren’t so great and where it could have been done better. That is perennial and normal. The attitude that looks back and is so dismissive, contemptuous and insulting is recognised as anachronistic. It’s an attitude of “we know it all now and are so superior to those uneducated, unevangelised inferiors”. It’s an attitude that is foolish, prideful and a recipe for even greater destruction.

Why not just be normal, humble Catholics and treat other Catholics with respect and gratitude for the effort and good will they demonstrated and then participate in healthy reform?

 

[Emeraldlady]

It’s my experience that around where I am the exact reverse is true, and by swapping the parties around in you statement, it would then read as - “ I think it’s obvious that the adherents of the OF have degrees of extremists, very vocal about criticising everyone and everything that is traditional in their eyes ”.

Perhaps again that’s an American thing. The thing that non traditionalist find most upsetting of all is discrediting the authority of the Pope and the authority of Vatican II. We are fighting for old fashioned Catholic obedience which is the source of much joy and hope and unity. What other thing in this world has the protection of the Holy Spirit??!! We want our children to grow up in the faith knowing this great, great thing we have. I very much discourage them from listening to criticism of the ‘novus ordites’ or being snarky about ‘Judas shufflers’ or characterising our wonderful hymns as banal. There is nothing of the Holy Spirit in that attitude.

 

[CRV]

I think that in all areas of community service/education etc we can look back and see where things weren’t so great and where it could have been done better.

Agreed.

The attitude that looks back and is so dismissive, contemptuous and insulting is recognised as anachronistic. It’s an attitude of “we know it all now and are so superior to those uneducated, unevangelised inferiors”.

Don’t agree that this is the case with everyone, and whilst I assume you chose the words to illustrate a point - I think as a generalization portraying the attitude of ‘those’ as such, is exaggerated.

For example the two hymns I linked in my earlier post - how often are they heard where the OF Mass is the only Mass? They were good back then, and are good for today too - good to be reminded that we are dependent on God, that we are sinners, and in great need of His Mercy in this life and in purgatory. ← these types of hymns keeps us humble.

Those writing hymns for our worship of God, may find it profitable to look back at these ‘old hymns’ and see the wisdom and goodness of them.

 

[CRV]

The thing that non traditionalist find most upsetting of all is discrediting the authority of the Pope and the authority of Vatican II.

I understand you completely. I consider myself a traditional, though not an ‘extremist’.

But in all fairness it was the non traditionalists that even when made aware of the various Popes support for the EF and the relevant documents - still adamantly refused to acknowledge it is permitted, and their attitude was certainly not in my parish! Let them go elsewhere if they want it so bad. Thus they were discrediting the authority of the Pope too, not that they saw it that way.

And reading the book - Documents of Vatican II: Vatican Translation with Notes and Index - was an eye opener. Good to read the documents and what was actually said, rather than on opinions &/or interpretations of these documents.

But perhaps moving forward, the changes that were not stated by any of these documents will be undone, and what was actually required will be put into practice. Or at least that is my hope.

 

[PetraG]

Let’s not forget that there are musical changes that were NOT called for in the conciliar documents.

 

[CatholicELATeacher]

Much of the music in Breaking Bread and Gather, for example, both of which issue guitar versions of their sheet music. Guitar.

 

[Randolph]

And reading the book - Documents of Vatican II: Vatican Translation with Notes and Index - was an eye opener. Good to read the documents and what was actually said, rather than on opinions &/or interpretations of these documents.

But perhaps moving forward, the changes that were not stated by any of these documents will be undone, and what was actually required will be put into practice. Or at least that is my hope.

I went through a similar thought process as you did. The so-called “spirit of Vatican 2” movement imposed its liberal/progressive will on the Church, mis-represented the contents of V2, and ultimately damaged the Church. It will take some time for the Church to undo the damages. The EF was one of its victims. I am thankful for Pope Benedict’s courageous effort to restore the unity in the Church and to allow for reconciliation in the Church. Summorum Pontificum was, without question, a tremendous gift to the Church. Its positive impact will be felt for many, many future generations.

 

[PetraG]

I think that in all areas of community service/education etc we can look back and see where things weren’t so great and where it could have been done better. That is perennial and normal. The attitude that looks back and is so dismissive, contemptuous and insulting is recognised as anachronistic. It’s an attitude of “we know it all now and are so superior to those uneducated, unevangelised inferiors”. It’s an attitude that is foolish, prideful and a recipe for even greater destruction.

Why not just be normal, humble Catholics and treat other Catholics with respect and gratitude for the effort and good will they demonstrated and then participate in healthy reform?

It is in the plain meaning of the New Testament and everything taught by the Apostles and the Doctors of the Church that ongoing conversion of heart is the lifelong task of anyone who hopes to become a saint. That is the first reform to always keep in mind, and the one the Evil One will always try to keep farthest from our minds. We cannot do any good work without making that our chief goal.

Have any of us escaped being dismissive or contemptuous at some time in our lives? Surely, if we respond instead of reacting to those who slip, and do it with the mildness we hope to receive ourselves, it will serve as a penance for the times we ourselves have been thoughtless or have spoken too quickly. “Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful… Give, and it shall be given to you: good measure and pressed down and shaken together and running over shall they give into your bosom. For with the same measure that you shall mete withal, it shall be measured to you again.” (Lk 6: 36, 38)

It is far more difficult to do than to say, but “a mild answer breaketh wrath: but a harsh word stirreth up fury.” (Prov 15: 1) It is worth trying. We don’t have to pretend we’re clearing away the moneychangers every time someone else crosses a line. We know we ourselves have deserved that kind of teaching moment; to respond mildly shows we know what we ourselves also deserve.

I don’t think it is in the Bible, but anyone old enough to remember Latin in the Mass also remembers that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, too.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I did no twisting at all. I simply reported what YOU said.

Yes you did twist what I said and what you accused me of, was not what I posted.

 

[PetraG]

Yes you did twist what I said and what you accused me of, was not what I posted.

OK, so forgive the slight. Correct the record, that is OK, but with mildness. It’s a lay-up way to win mercy for the sins that the Accuser will try to pin on you. To get mercy, give mercy. It is a hard way, but an easy recipe to remember.

You say you enjoy the silence and contemplation and you happen to love Latin and, 'But but but evil! But but but priest ignores you! But but but no community interaction ! But but but you aren’t participating! Don’t tell me you don’t just sit there and say the rosary because you’re ignorant! I know you do!"

There is a point at which one has to say, “I know that’s the reputation, but that’s not my experience. Maybe some time you ought to come. I could lead you through it before Mass, so you don’t feel left out or ignored, because that is a common misconception, I understand that.”

Honestly, people understand that the audience is an integral part of an opera, and the audience is of course really “just an audience” in that case…yet they are not, even then, are they? People understand that actors with no lines aren’t pointless in a stage production. Every time we pray the Mass, after all, it is Christ who offers it, not us. That understanding keeps us from resenting it when we pray silently while only the priest offers our prayers–our prayers!!–audibly. It is an ongoing education thing, though. All of us are deficient in understanding something. The way we treat those who don’t understand what we do is directly related to how we will be judged for having opinions about people and situations that we don’t fully understand ourselves.

In other words, to be misunderstood is a great opportunity to win mercy for ourselves. We should make the most of that chance to treat others as we hope to be treated. We are all little children who understand very little. We need to please Our Father by how we treat each other in our ignorance and (sometimes) our childishness. We don’t even have to concern ourselves with who it is who is being childish, our little brothers and sisters or ourselves.

Back to the thread–the Archbishop is saying that we need to allow the Mass to change us, to make us saints, to turn us out into the world as people different than the world is. That will speak more eloquently than anything else we could put into words about what the Mass means to us. And hey, if no one listens, the Mass will still have changed us as Christ intends.

As Steven Covey puts it: The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing.

 

[stpurl]

Jim, I am not trying to ‘get you’. Apparently you or the moderators removed or edited the post where you expressed that there were two groups, 'one who sees the OF as borderline heresy" and the other group ‘who see the EF only as a return to being quiet and obedient.’ So please stop with telling me I am twisting your words when I simply reported them. Since they are now removed I am perfectly willing to stop discussion as they have been recognized as no longer ‘expressed’.

 

[PetraG]

Jim, I am not trying to ‘get you’. Apparently you or the moderators removed or edited the post where you expressed that there were two groups, 'one who sees the OF as borderline heresy" and the other group ‘who see the EF only as a return to being quiet and obedient.’ So please stop with telling me I am twisting your words when I simply reported them. Since they are now removed I am perfectly willing to stop discussion as they have been recognized as no longer ‘expressed’.

The Archbishop himself essentially said there are people on one hand who think the EF is harmful and on the other hand those who think the OF is harmful. This kind of attitude is harming us, and he sees the harm firsthand, because of course everyone comes to him to “make things right.” He’s saying that what’s right is to work for excellence in both the EF and the OF and to encourage people to remember that the Mass is the source and the summit but not the only end of the Christian life. It sends us out! If it doesn’t send us out acting and sounding like Christians, it isn’t the Mass that has failed us. It is we who are failing what the Mass has given us.

We have all failed in that, to some degree. We need to show mercy to others, because we need it ourselves. We have failed the tremendous graces we have been given. We can’t throttle anyone else when they fail.

 

[Emeraldlady]

The disease, if you will, that I believe is most destructive is the anachronistic perspective on Vatican II and the subsequent reforms by modern traditionals. Pope St John XXIII addressed it in the opening speech at VII.

In the daily exercise of our pastoral office, we sometimes have to listen, much to our regret, to voices of persons who, though burning with zeal, are not endowed with too much sense of discretion or measure. In these modern times they can see nothing but prevarication and ruin. They say that our era, in comparison with past eras, is getting worse, and they behave as though they had learned nothing from history, which is, none the less, the teacher of life. They behave as though at the time of former Councils everything was a full triumph for the Christian idea and life and for proper religious liberty.

We feel we must disagree with those prophets of gloom, who are always forecasting disaster, as though the end of the world were at hand.

He goes on to speak about deliberately cultivating a new perspective for the purpose of keeping the last days and what we know of Gods Will for us, in focus…

In the present order of things, Divine Providence is leading us to a new order of human relations which, by men’s own efforts and even beyond their very expectations, are directed toward the fulfillment of God’s superior and inscrutable designs. And everything, even human differences, leads to the greater good of the Church.

It is easy to discern this reality if we consider attentively the world of today, which is so busy with politics and controversies in the economic order that it does not find time to attend to the care of spiritual reality, with which the Church’s magisterium is concerned. Such a way of acting is certainly not right, and must justly be disapproved

Scripture spells out what God will be judging us on as we stand before Him on the last day and its got nothing to do with the rubrics, communion on the tongue, veiling etc. Those things just don’t make anyone a more holy person in the eyes of God. They didn’t in the past and they won’t in the future.

Looking back with rose coloured glasses on the past and with an attitude of doom about today, spreads doubt, hopelessness and joylessness, which are the antithesis of a saint.

Rom 5:1-5 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

 

[stpurl]

Petra, where I objected was the calling out of “EF” people as calling the OF borderline heretics and in portraying OF as being ‘a return to quiet and obedient’ which is in itself rather a projection of EF people going ‘back’ to some time that never even was.

I agree with the Archbishop and honestly I think he agrees with me in that we need to be honest and acknowledge that there is a lot of division that is projected onto EF adherents by OF adherents, who then claim that all the division is ‘on the EF side’. Until we can get honesty from people who will admit to the virtue-shaming, “we are only concerned that our brothers and sisters are going to the EF for the wrong reasons, those things which the OF has proudly taken care of, like mumbojumbo Latin, quiet, and the priest turning his back” as if it’s already been found to be a FACT that people who go to the EF are DOING so for all these ‘wrong things’, and say with candor, "We prefer the OF and we are uncomfortable with the EF because we’ve been taught to believe it is inferior and the people who follow it are ‘not like us’; we know that the EF was wrenched from people and withheld without their consent and so we fear the same thing will happen to us, that if ‘they’ get ‘more’ of “their” Mass it will involve US getting less of OURS’. . .

Then we might start getting somewhere.

Because people want the EF doesn’t mean they want to take away from the OF! Because people who love the EF had it taken away, they know how awful it feels and they don’t want others to suffer. They just want to have the EF for those who want it, and the OF for those who want it. There is no need to be divided at all IMO.

 

[stpurl]

OM. . .gracious. Really. Disease?
See my post above. I personally feel that much of the venom and fear directed at traditionalists is due to Catholics who have been conditioned to feel that traditionalists are 'diseased."

How sad.