Archbishop Sample - All priest's should learn Traditional Latin Mass

[PetraG]

How long do you think it would take to learn the TLM from scratch? I think such a group of parishioners could be waiting a long time before they had their priest saying Latin Mass for them if he had to learn it from scratch after they made such a request, even if the priest was very willing.

I don’t know, but a good many have done it. Priests do tend to be the “lifelong learning” type of people, and carve out time to learn as well as to serve, to keep themselves intellectually vital. Archbishop Sample is saying that just that process of learning it is inherently edifying, even if a priest were to know he would not be offering the Mass using the EF on a regular basis. If some priests find they have learned it and it was in some way distracting or something–mileage always varies–then they can honestly tell anyone who asks that they gave it a fair chance. I don’t know what anyone would want them to do more than that. There is no lack of need for priests to say the OF, either, after all.

Of course, there are priests who will want to use the time they have for their continuing education as priests in other ways. The Archbishop is saying, however, that he thinks that any priest would profit from the process of learning the OF.

NOTE: Archbishop Sample learned the Traditional Latin Mass not only after he was ordained to the priesthood but after he was ordained as a bishop. He said initially set out to learn it because he thought it was his duty as a bishop to learn it. The experience obviously had a profound effect on him.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

i have a question about confirmation…

If your question does not relate to the topic of priests learning Latin and/or the Traditional Latin Mass, please start a new thread in the appropriate category. Thank you.

 

[godisgood77]

How long do you think it would take to learn the TLM from scratch?

I don’t believe it would take very long at all. Maybe a month. It shouldn’t be too hard to learn and follow the rubrics.

There is no reason that attention to the TLM needs to lead to anything like a “liturgy war.”

I think that is a good aspiration… However, I have been exposed to priests who have disparaged the OF in favor of the EF. That sentiment is actually somewhat prevalent in traditionalist circles, unfortunately. It is extremely sad that the liturgy is a bone of contention, but don’t you think we would be naive to pretend that there isn’t a problem that needs to be addressed?

Personally, I haven’t been exposed to people who prefer the OF who talk negatively about the EF. On the contrary, I have heard the EF proponents speak very negatively about the OF. I think the first order of business should be to solve that… that being the vitriol that is directed at the OF.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I’d say they can learn it once there is a stable group of parishioners requesting it as Summorum Pontificum envisages.

Thing is many people would like the EF but won’t speak up because they know the priest doesn’t know how to say it or, and this is the reason in our diocese, they know the priests are very busy and don’t want to bother them by asking them to go and learn something new. That is why I agree with Archbishop Sample. If the priests already knew how to say the EF, they could offer it and parishioners might not feel they are adding more burdens on the priest.

I have been exposed to priests who have disparaged the OF in favor of the EF. That sentiment is actually somewhat prevalent in traditionalist circles, unfortunately…
Personally, I haven’t been exposed to people who prefer the OF who talk negatively about the EF. On the contrary, I have heard the EF proponents speak very negatively about the OF.

It happens both ways. I have heard both, here on this forum mostly but out in the world also.

 

[PetraG]

I have been exposed to priests who have disparaged the OF in favor of the EF. That sentiment is actually somewhat prevalent in traditionalist circles, unfortunately.

It is prevalent in both circles almost to the point of scandal. It is worse than pointless. This mutual disparagement is an ongoing offense against the commandment to charity. This is the response that comes from devotion to the Sacrament of Love? I cannot believe that is so.

It does not have to be that way. I think this division is born not primarily from self-righteousness in either case but from fears, both fears that the OF will be displaced and fears that the return of the EF will be thwarted.

Neither of those things are going to happen. The question is whether the two forms will be allowed to enhance each other, for the edification of the whole Church.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Neither of those things are going to happen. The question is whether the two forms will be allowed to enhance each other, for the edification of the whole Church.

Yes and that was exactly one of the points Archbishop Sample made also. That each form can enhance the other.

 

[Sean]

But if seminarians learn it they can say it as soon as the parish requests it

 

[otjm]

I did not say you said that; there are occasional words which pop up in law, and in law school they are explained and everyone moves on. One is not tested on the Latin, but rather the law. In short, it is minimalist; a first year high school student taking Latin - if they pay attention - will likely remember more than a law student who never did take the language.

The movement towards other languages seems to have started somehwere in the 1960’s, and given that it was widespread - as opposed to simply a phenomenon in Catholic high schools - Latin pretty much dropped out of sight. It has made a bit of a comeback as part of a revival of Classics.

 

[otjm]

It appears from the reporting of which parishes, by diocese, have the EF availble, that about 3% or slightly less of all the 17,000+ parishes in the US have the EF’ and that ranges from EF parishes to those which may have an EF Mass once a week to once a month or less.

There thus seems little reason to put in once more class for a seminarian in an already very busy schedule, or to exclude another class to make room for a class on the EF, when there is such little demand among parishes.

Certainly if a seminarian wants to learn the EF, he can find the means and way to do so. It appears from some of the posts herein that some people have not read either Summorum Pontificum or its accompanying letter. There is a clearly delineated process by which those who wish to that the EF available my request it; and in some circumstances, it requires more than simply seeking like-minded individuals within one parish. It takes a lot of work. And, as the document and letter make clear, when requested, the priest of the parish is required to work to assist the group to meet their spiritual needs; but the priest is not required to be the one who provides the EF.

That is not to say that there is nothing to be gained by a seminarian learning the EF; it has been said by those who have learned it that it enhances their celebration of the OF. However, requiring all seminarians to learn the EF does not appear to be something the bishops are seeking.

 

[ProVobis]

If the priests already knew how to say the EF, they could offer it and parishioners might not feel they are adding more burdens on the priest.

Hopefully he can find servers and others to prepare the altar. That’s important too.

 

[otjm]

65 years ago that might have been something the average priest could do - for one reason; they prayed in Latin day in and day out, 365 days a year; not only the Mass, but also the Liturgy of the Hours.

Any given priest today, even assuming he has taken Latin in the seminary, has an extremely low opportunity or need to use Latin unless he is within the small percentage of parishes which have the EF.

And like any skill which goes unused for a long period of time, it fades. There are multiple resources a priest could use were he in need of clarification of the translated document, starting with his chancery and moving out from there.

A priest I have been close to took Spanish classes, as he was far, far likelier to need to say Mass in Spanish rather than Latin. We talked about it once, and his comment was that it took him somewhere between 6 and 8 years before he felt he could pray the Mass in Spanish, as opposed to say the Mass in Spanish. He also said that mattered to him very much.

Even when he achieved that level, he never considered himself fluent in Spanish; more closer to proficient. When he gave a homily, he had an Hispanic individual, familiar with what he was going to say, nearby and he would turn several times to them to find the word he could not come up with. Even then his homily was clearly being given in a language in which he was not fluent. I suspect he won many points for trying; but he was trying to do more than score points; he was trying to deliver the Gospel.

 

[Sean]

I think that it should be a elective and that 1 day out of the week they should have a ef mass at the seminary

 

[CRV]

Sacrosanctum Concilium
“36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.”

So if Latin is not being studied , then how as this document states is Latin going to be preserved in the Latin rites? And by rites I am assuming what is meant here is the Mass as well as the rite of Baptism, Confirmation, Matrimony etc etc.

And yet there are seminarians who do manage to learn Latin and the EF of the Mass. I would think the subjects studied otherwise would be the same, yet these seminarians are able to incorporate these into their study schedules.

 

[Ryan1]

The mere existence of parishes where the Vetus Ordo is offered is enough to transform dioceses, as long as the bishop is supportive. Once a growing community of Catholics is established around such worship, seminaries will need to train priests to support and eventually replace existing priests and their growing congregations. But it is an organic sort of growth, so it will take time.

 

[otjm]

Latin will be retained if for no other reason than that all documents which come out of Rome are in Latin.

As to how some seminarians fit in Latin, it is likely that is not part of the graduate courses in theology, but part of courses taken before entering Theology. However, without the curriculum of all of the seminaries to compare to one another, all we do is talk past one another.

It is said that one does not know another language until one can dream (or think) in it. Back when I took Latin, the high school I started in taught it as a translated language; that is, we would have a text and we would translate it to English. We spent little or no time translating English to Latin.

I then transferred to another high school which had started teaching Latin as a spoken language (I forget the professor’s name who had designed the course) and I was so lost that the teacher suggested I drop the course. At the same time I was taking Homeric Greek (we learned by translating the Odyssey) with some koine is senior year.

I then went to college seminary, where once again we learned Latin by translation - and my recollection was that it was classic, not ecclesiastical Latin. As I left seminary after my second year, I don’t know if Latin continued the next 2 years. at best I could say I was sort of proficient, with emphasis of “sort of”.

 

[CRV]

Latin will be retained if for no other reason than that all documents which come out of Rome are in Latin

That’s true as I’ve quoted -

In addition, precisely in order to highlight the Church’s universal character, the liturgical books of the Roman Rite , the most important documents of the Papal Magisterium and the most solemn official Acts of the Roman Pontiffs are written in this language in their authentic form."

part of courses taken before entering Theology

Quite possibly. The four I know sing the Epistle at Mass, assume the role of either deacon or subdeacon or MC. And are very fluent in speaking and reading and understanding Latin as is needed for at least the Liturgy.

without the curriculum of all of the seminaries to compare to one another, all we do is talk past one another.

Agreed. They may differ widely in various ways - length, depth, proficiency required etc etc (in Latin).

It is said that one does not know another language until one can dream (or think) in it. Back when I took Latin, the high school I started in taught it as a translated language; that is, we would have a text and we would translate it to English. We spent little or no time translating English to Latin.

I then transferred to another high school which had started teaching Latin as a spoken language (I forget the professor’s name who had designed the course) and I was so lost that the teacher suggested I drop the course. At the same time I was taking Homeric Greek (we learned by translating the Odyssey) with some koine is senior year.

I then went to college seminary, where once again we learned Latin by translation - and my recollection was that it was classic, not ecclesiastical Latin. As I left seminary after my second year, I don’t know if Latin continued the next 2 years. at best I could say I was sort of proficient, with emphasis of “sort of”.

Wonderful. It’s an asset - especially when reading the documents from Rome instead of waiting for translations - things do get lost in translation after all.

 

[MiserereMeiDei]

The archbishop of my diocese wanted the priests to learn it but they refused. His recourse was to make it mandatory for the seminarians. The pastors of the parishes don’t even want it said at their churches by another priest. They are completely opposed. Fortunately they won’t be around forever.

Before we knew about latin masses in the area my son and I asked a priest at our parish. His response was no, that it had been too long. He didn’t even tell us that the other church in the same parish had one on Sundays. And too long? What a joke. You know what had been even longer?

 

[CTBcin]

Personally, I haven’t been exposed to people who prefer the OF who talk negatively about the EF.

Read National Catholic Reporter sometime.

 

[CTBcin]

But if seminarians learn it they can say it as soon as the parish requests it

Indeed. And it’s much easier to take the time to learn the EF while in seminary than when you are out in the parish doing ministry.

And as I said towards the beginning of the thread, even if a guy will never say the EF, learning it in seminary will better inform and enrich his celebration of the OF.

 

[stpurl]

Indeed. How about that lovely lady who just recently had an entire article in the National catholic Reporter dedicated to how terrible the Latin Mass and its adherents were? Google Zita Ballinger Fletcher. And how do you like the title of this November 5, 2019 article? The Latin Mass becomes a cult of toxic tradition.