Archbishop talks about parish overhaul (21 Twin Cities Churches to close)
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C
curlycool89
Guest
That’s just how it is sometimes. There’s simply too many parishes, not enough priests, not enough parishioners and not enough money. It simply doesn’t make sense to have (for example) 3 nearby parishes at 1/4 capacity when you can combine them into 1 larger parish. You have 2 less properties to maintain, which means a lot more money can be used to make the larger parish much better equipped and maintained (instead of having 3 mediocre, run-down parishes).
How about an analogy (I will admit, it’s a very crude one)? The Diocese is like a corporation, and the Cathedral is the main branch (I would add that the bishop is the CEO, but that’s already effectively the case in real life, so no analogy is really needed). Other parishes are like franchises of the corporation.
Each franchise has to independently maintain a property and has a Manager (priest in most cases, or in some cases a parish is left in the care of a non-priest) appointed by the CEO. Each franchise is responsible for a certain territory (in some cases, this is how a corporation works), or in some cases it’s a Specialty Location that appeals to a certain demographic, and they’re job is to maintain a membership and funding for themselves.
Now, in some cases, a franchise is not doing well. There’s few members, and they’re not making any money (they’re being subsidized by the Corporation). The CEO has to decide if it is more prudent to shut certain franchises and have nearby ones take over the area. Or in other cases the CEO might merge several “have-not” franchises into one “have” franchise located in whichever location was most advantageous (larger, newer, better kept, less maintenance needed, or whatever the criteria is). Or the CEO can’t find any qualified Managers to run the franchise, or other Managers are already stretched too thin running 2 or more by themselves (I’ve seen this happen in private and in government, 1 person will manage 2 geographically “close” locations).
You can apply that to many ordinary capitalistic examples. Mcdonalds isn’t going to keep open a location that’s loosing money, they’re going to shut it and have the customers go to the nearest location. Maybe that location was significant to some people; maybe the local bridge club liked to go there to socialize, or many Sally so-and-so lost her first tooth there, or maybe Dan whats-his-name fondly remembers his first job there (bear with me for the example
). It doesn’t matter, it’s become a dead-weight.
People always complain that the government need to play by market rules, but we need to remember that the Church does too. It’s especially bad when you see the city-dwellers complain because they likely have at least a half-dozen other perfectly good parishes to attend. Sometimes, hard decisions need to be made, and it’s the CEO’s (Bishop’s) job (by canon law) to do it. We’re just the members, we don’t get a vote (I guess you could ultimately count “vote by not showing up”, but we all know that you’re just being a spoiled self-centered brat because you feel that the Corporation should be catering to you and you alone as if there’s no other members but you).
How about an analogy (I will admit, it’s a very crude one)? The Diocese is like a corporation, and the Cathedral is the main branch (I would add that the bishop is the CEO, but that’s already effectively the case in real life, so no analogy is really needed). Other parishes are like franchises of the corporation.
Each franchise has to independently maintain a property and has a Manager (priest in most cases, or in some cases a parish is left in the care of a non-priest) appointed by the CEO. Each franchise is responsible for a certain territory (in some cases, this is how a corporation works), or in some cases it’s a Specialty Location that appeals to a certain demographic, and they’re job is to maintain a membership and funding for themselves.
Now, in some cases, a franchise is not doing well. There’s few members, and they’re not making any money (they’re being subsidized by the Corporation). The CEO has to decide if it is more prudent to shut certain franchises and have nearby ones take over the area. Or in other cases the CEO might merge several “have-not” franchises into one “have” franchise located in whichever location was most advantageous (larger, newer, better kept, less maintenance needed, or whatever the criteria is). Or the CEO can’t find any qualified Managers to run the franchise, or other Managers are already stretched too thin running 2 or more by themselves (I’ve seen this happen in private and in government, 1 person will manage 2 geographically “close” locations).
You can apply that to many ordinary capitalistic examples. Mcdonalds isn’t going to keep open a location that’s loosing money, they’re going to shut it and have the customers go to the nearest location. Maybe that location was significant to some people; maybe the local bridge club liked to go there to socialize, or many Sally so-and-so lost her first tooth there, or maybe Dan whats-his-name fondly remembers his first job there (bear with me for the example
). It doesn’t matter, it’s become a dead-weight.People always complain that the government need to play by market rules, but we need to remember that the Church does too. It’s especially bad when you see the city-dwellers complain because they likely have at least a half-dozen other perfectly good parishes to attend. Sometimes, hard decisions need to be made, and it’s the CEO’s (Bishop’s) job (by canon law) to do it. We’re just the members, we don’t get a vote (I guess you could ultimately count “vote by not showing up”, but we all know that you’re just being a spoiled self-centered brat because you feel that the Corporation should be catering to you and you alone as if there’s no other members but you).
M
mcrow
Guest
Yeah, it was a needed change as some of these churches have mass with less than 20 people showing up. I was told by a fiend that at his church it wasn’t abnormal to see less than 10 at his church.
But they did have 200+ churches in just two cities before these closures. That seems like a lot of churches for two cities.
I think a lot of it has to do with more people moving to the suburbs. Minneapolis and St Paul once upon a time had huge Irish, Italian and Polish communities but many of those people have relocated to the suburbs. The churches outside of Minneapolis and St. Paul seem to be doing quite well.
My church, for instance, has 2800 regular members and the weekend masses are full and the daily Mass is well attended in a town of just 12k.
But they did have 200+ churches in just two cities before these closures. That seems like a lot of churches for two cities.
I think a lot of it has to do with more people moving to the suburbs. Minneapolis and St Paul once upon a time had huge Irish, Italian and Polish communities but many of those people have relocated to the suburbs. The churches outside of Minneapolis and St. Paul seem to be doing quite well.
My church, for instance, has 2800 regular members and the weekend masses are full and the daily Mass is well attended in a town of just 12k.
J
jilly4ski
Guest
Indeed, suburban sprawl is pretty bad in the twin cities. People no longer live in the cities themselves, so the churches which are only a few blocks from each other, suffer, because of the lack on Catholics and people who live in the cities generally.
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Catholic29
Guest
Its sad, but was innevitable given all thats happened. Not only the economy, demographic shifts or priest shortages, but alot of people just don’t attend Mass or support their parishes.
And I guess you could count me as one not attending, though I have my reasons…
And I guess you could count me as one not attending, though I have my reasons…
C
ConstantineTG
Guest
Somehow my parish feels like what you described. There is a nearby larger parish with a better, well kept building and attached school. People usually move between parishes. Also not further away is a third parish. Ours I think is the smallest in terms of parishioners and we also have the oldest church building and one that needs the most maintenance.
J
jackangelo1
Guest
sometimes people write a thousand words ,and say nothing? here in Buffalo,ny they bishop has closed 77 parishes mostly because attendence to the churches stands at 24%. The Cover-up of sex -scadals, homosexuality., pedophilia,child -molestation,Lying,sinning by Catholic Church leaders has turned their FLOCK sour against the DO-NOTHING position for over 60 years and continues up till today in confronting nor condemning evil and evildoers? I went to church for over 60 years,as did my family and friends, but we no longer attend, maybe when the Pope and his bishops Remove evil from Roman Catholicism,we will return.??That’s just how it is sometimes. There’s simply too many parishes, not enough priests, not enough parishioners and not enough money. It simply doesn’t make sense to have (for example) 3 nearby parishes at 1/4 capacity when you can combine them into 1 larger parish. You have 2 less properties to maintain, which means a lot more money can be used to make the larger parish much better equipped and maintained (instead of having 3 mediocre, run-down parishes).
How about an analogy (I will admit, it’s a very crude one)? The Diocese is like a corporation, and the Cathedral is the main branch (I would add that the bishop is the CEO, but that’s already effectively the case in real life, so no analogy is really needed). Other parishes are like franchises of the corporation.
Each franchise has to independently maintain a property and has a Manager (priest in most cases, or in some cases a parish is left in the care of a non-priest) appointed by the CEO. Each franchise is responsible for a certain territory (in some cases, this is how a corporation works), or in some cases it’s a Specialty Location that appeals to a certain demographic, and they’re job is to maintain a membership and funding for themselves.
Now, in some cases, a franchise is not doing well. There’s few members, and they’re not making any money (they’re being subsidized by the Corporation). The CEO has to decide if it is more prudent to shut certain franchises and have nearby ones take over the area. Or in other cases the CEO might merge several “have-not” franchises into one “have” franchise located in whichever location was most advantageous (larger, newer, better kept, less maintenance needed, or whatever the criteria is). Or the CEO can’t find any qualified Managers to run the franchise, or other Managers are already stretched too thin running 2 or more by themselves (I’ve seen this happen in private and in government, 1 person will manage 2 geographically “close” locations).
You can apply that to many ordinary capitalistic examples. Mcdonalds isn’t going to keep open a location that’s loosing money, they’re going to shut it and have the customers go to the nearest location. Maybe that location was significant to some people; maybe the local bridge club liked to go there to socialize, or many Sally so-and-so lost her first tooth there, or maybe Dan whats-his-name fondly remembers his first job there (bear with me for the example
People always complain that the government need to play by market rules, but we need to remember that the Church does too. It’s especially bad when you see the city-dwellers complain because they likely have at least a half-dozen other perfectly good parishes to attend. Sometimes, hard decisions need to be made, and it’s the CEO’s (Bishop’s) job (by canon law) to do it. We’re just the members, we don’t get a vote (I guess you could ultimately count “vote by not showing up”, but we all know that you’re just being a spoiled self-centered brat because you feel that the Corporation should be catering to you and you alone as if there’s no other members but you).
O
Orogeny
Guest
Maybe, but maybe not. If you are not missing the graces received at Mass now, why would you return later? If you are willing to commit mortal sin by missing Mass, you are hurting yourself and not the Church, but you seem, based on your comments, to be ok with that. You have chosen to leave the Church and blame the Church for your decision, yet you are the one who will have to answer for your actions.
I suspect (but sincerely hope I am wrong) that you will always find a reason not to return.
I’m sorry, but I am tired of hearing excuses for leaving the Church.
Peace
Tim
M
mcrow
Guest
Well, the abuse scandal didn’t help. The way the Church handled it didn’t help.
However, I do understand some of the reasons why they handled it the way they did. They were trying to protect the Church which in their mind comes before all else. Granted, transfering the priests who committed these terrible acts to another parish and trying to cover it up in some cases wasn’t the right way to do it but I don’t think the Church wanted this to happen.
Believe it or not, I don’t really think that the priest scandal actually hurt the churches numbers as much as people think.
This article
Shows that the Church is still growing and that, in fact, every other major christian church is losing ground.
So, I would say that the problem isn’t that there are less Catholics as much as where the Catholics are. Catholics are moving out of the inner city in a lot of areas and that used to be the center of the Catholic Church in those areas. Being that there used to be many more Catholics there they built a lot of Churches in Minneapolis and St. Paul. I kid you not, it seems like there is a Catholic church nearly every few blocks. So, where once there used to be need for that number of churches there isn’t any longer due to demographic shifts.
Actually I think the issue would be even more pronounced if it were not for the Latino Catholics that moved in and are taking up some of the empty space.
O
OriginalJS
Guest
M
mcrow
Guest
Well, as for the priesthood, it’s hard to say. To suggest fewer priests is due to fewer numbers of Catholics when every report(from within the church and outside) says that the church is growing is not logical, IMO.
The pristhood is perhaps the part of the church hurt the most. A priest was once a very repsected figure wether you were Catholic or not you respected priests. I think many non-catholics lost a lot of respect for the priesthood over the molestation issues.
We have to take into account the baby boomers as well and that they are getting to age where we will be losing a large number of priests and parishioners just do to old age and disease. The oldest baby boomers are now in their mid 60’s so over the next decade or so we will probably see a further drop in priests and parishioners. The rate of loss may overcome the rate of growth causing a deficit or perhaps a stagnation in overall numbers, but this won’t be specific to the Catholic Church.
Given the current economic problems I’m not at all surprised that offering has been down and will probably continue to be down. Ever since the attacks of 911 offerings have probably been down and sinking since then but that is also when the economic turn started. You had a huge number of retired or close to retired folks who lost their life savings due to the stock market meltdown. The unemployment rate is close to 17% when you take into account under employed people and take out temoporary government jobs.
It may also be partially that there are less faithful Catholics as there once was which would affect the number of Priests and donations but it’s pretty hard to know that for sure.
J
jackangelo1
Guest
Maybe I should have explained my position more fully, for forty years I was Lay Director of the Catholic Youth Organisation,(560 children) I had two friends that joined the priesthood, but upon entering the Seminaries(1955) they found it infested with radical homosexuals? for the next 40 years ,looking into the situation,I found out that homosexuals pushed out most straights, wanting the Catholic Religion , as theirs. I tried to stop them with the help of other priests ,but to no avail? bishoos pushed me out of my position. I dug into the gays in our church, finding out the biggest cover-up in modern times. newspapers,tv wouldn’t touch this story? I found out that the 3rd secret of Fatima contained information on Pedophilia in the Church(cover-up by all clergy from 1952! READ "Good -Bye Good Men " by Michael Rose. Where do you think all those homosexuals are today??? then ,Thank God for some brave vitims , The Church Scadals got some light, Thousands of little kids, molested,abused, Raped, enslaved, AND EVERY Pope,Cardinal,bishop,priests and their attendents ,secretaries KNEW of this Orgy! , I pleaded with all thePopes from Pope Pius xii to Pope Benedict to stop this slaughter! THEY are still covering it up. The Church leaders have done Nothing to confront nor condemn evil nor evildoers. I dont worry about my punis
hment from God because God knows my Heart
I think it was St. Cryomosom, (is that the right spelling) who said, " the floors of Hell are paved with the Skulls of bishops"I am going back to church,eventually!
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