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Joe_5859
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I am quite calm. Why would you assume otherwise?
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cyb
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Why, indeed…
The USCCB has been plagued with problems, the CCHD has been an ongoing scandal, the sex abuse crisis in the U.S. (and its far-reaching effects) is far from over, the Pope just assembled the Cardinals of the world to address the sex abuse crisis, Abp. Dolan is on the verge of going to scandal-ridden Ireland to “examine” its seminaries, he is on the verge of closing 32 schools in NY (the largest # of school closings in the history of the Archdiocese), and he chooses to say we’re not in crisis. Really quite mind-blowing, isn’t it?
I also find the Abp… Dolan quotation you have put up, Lil Flower Luv, to be disturbing:
“Maybe the greatest threat to the Church is not heresy, not dissent, not secularism…but this feel-good, boutique, therapeutic spirituality that makes no demands, calls for no sacrifice, asks for no conversion, entails no battle against sin, but only soothes and affirms.”
- Abp. Timothy Dolan
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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While this is how the media reported this it is not the entire truth.
The sex abuse issue was just one item on the agenda for the is more than just that.
If you look at post #4 and #5 in this thread, Pope calls his cardinals. . . you will see that it is just one item of three that will be discussed in the evening. There were also three other items discussed in the morning.
The day after this meeting, which is today, the pope will create the 24 new cardinals.
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lil_flower_luv
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Luke12:48
“Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.”
Catholics wanting to make their journey easy with little trial and suffering are not answering God’s call for them. We who have faith are going to have to make sacrifices and carry our cross every single day. The Archbishop is talking about the body of Christ. If we are not willing to partake in His suffering, we can not rejoice in His glory.
The Archbishop knows better than you and I what is happening on the spiritual battlefield. He has seen heresy, dissent, secularism, moral relativism, etc - all these things occur. His is just as upset by it all as the rest of us. And so he points to Catholics, challenging us to live a life that won’t be easy. We are the ones who need to make great sacrifices for those wandering outside of the Church – and this because we believe. Because we are “entrusted with much” and “more will be demanded” of us.
Once again, the Archbishop was not talking about the Universal Church nor the American Church when he made those comments. I will stand by what I said.
God bless all of you. †
~Therese
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Tigg
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I’m wondering at this point if you truly are unaware of the reports and investigations that several good Catholic groups have done that have proven some quite serious allegations surrounding the CCHD, or else summarily dismissed them without much thought. Most often you can do the research yourself by looking at the published USCCB grantees list and then going to the webpages of the groups funded. The words spoken by ABp Dolan that he sees no need to change anything and his praises of his predecessor should cause much alarm and verifies for me by the words of his own mouth, that the reports of the “Reform the CCHD Now Coalition” are indeed true; that no change is coming and none should be expected.
Neither are you acknowledging the role the laity has. We sometimes have a duty to speak out as the catechism states. Just recently Cardinal Marc Ouellet admonished the bishops and theologians (the intelligentsia) for their spirit of dissent and praised the faithful stating that real discipleship is coming from those who really love the Church. I’m sure you’ve seen this before, but here is a reminder:
It is out of love for our Church and our distress at seeing things go so wrong that we speak.
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lil_flower_luv
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Tigg,
There is no denying we play a huge role in the Church. I commend you for pointing this out. We, the laity, must always be reminded of what we are called to do. (I love that Abp. Fulton J. Sheen quote, btw.)
Having said that, I am here strictly to defend the Archbishop. There were some comments made that people misunderstood and I offered to help clear things up. I will not ignore the fact that a lot of controversy has surrounded the council and the clergy of our Church. But when a good and faithful servant is being highly criticized as being part of the “dissident” or “unfaithful,” or perhaps even part of The Twilight Zone, I will speak up, as in this case.
God bless. †
There is no denying we play a huge role in the Church. I commend you for pointing this out. We, the laity, must always be reminded of what we are called to do. (I love that Abp. Fulton J. Sheen quote, btw.)
Having said that, I am here strictly to defend the Archbishop. There were some comments made that people misunderstood and I offered to help clear things up. I will not ignore the fact that a lot of controversy has surrounded the council and the clergy of our Church. But when a good and faithful servant is being highly criticized as being part of the “dissident” or “unfaithful,” or perhaps even part of The Twilight Zone, I will speak up, as in this case.
God bless. †
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Matthew_Holford
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Episcopal Conferences most probably do not fit into the Church’s theological concept of the Hierarchy. However, they do legitimately exist and the Church grants them a variety of powers. For example, each diocesan bishop could not have translated the third typical edition of the Missale Romanum into English. This has to be done by Episcopal Conferences.
They can make decisions binding throughout their territory if there is a unanimous vote or by a two-thirds majority vote followed by Holy See recognitio.
Their basic existence is set down in the Code of Canon Law, canons 447 to 459.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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Actually I do believe that they fit into the Church’s theological concept of the Hierarchy, that of collegiality. This is something that was lost (or misplaced) within the Church especially following Vatican I. Vatican I did not end, it was suspended due to a war and was never reconvened so they did not get to the other items that they had originally thought they would. This is why many scholars see Vatican II as the completion of Vatican I.
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Tigg
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Did posters on this thread misunderstand or did they have valid points of their own which deserved discussion? It was said of one poster that he had no faith in his Church. For further edification:
Cover-up and denial in the name of “charity” are not solutions but further crimes. The laity need to (charitably) question and speak out against those heretical things we are seeing and strenuously object or else we could be guilty of not defending the faith.
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Nordar
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Ditto, that is exactly what I was thinking!
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Truism
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Tigg - I love your posts. Your quotes are right on. We, the laity, must defend the True Faith against all heretics regardless of their title. I also think that if good clergy are aware of any of these posts, they may find the hope and support not often found in their environs. As you say, cover-up and denial in the name of charity are not solutions, but further crimes.
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lil_flower_luv
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I understand the many concerns of both yourself and the other posters who have questioned the Bishops. I have done the same, as I mentioned.
I wonder if they did misunderstand. No one who questioned the Archbishop has really responded at length to back up anything they said.
Question: What about those in the Church who were confused by our Pope’s recent comments? They are rather quick to assume the worst (as usual). I see a resemblance here with what was said about Archbishop Dolan. Is it because he is outspoken for the pro-life movement? Pro-traditional marriage? Pro-family?
So I suppose your comment on the Archbishop being part of The Twilight Zone was charitable?
I agree with those quotes and I question and speak out against heretics whenever I get the chance. So my point was to defend Archbishop Dolan for the very reason he is NOT a heretic.
I hope with all my heart that those who have a beef with Archbishop Timothy Dolan will please step up and help me understand why you feel this way. Just the Archbishop. * Not* the USCCB. Not the clergy as a whole.
Thank you and God bless.
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nymid
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Lil Flower Luv, I’m surprised you are unclear about why some have questioned the Archbishop’s portrayal as being one of staunch orthodoxy. I will reiterate some facts, though I fear this is getting redundant.
You often speak in terms such as “The Archbishop knows better than you and I what is happening on the spiritual battlefield” or “He is is just as upset by it all as the rest of us” but how do you know this? I like to deal with the cold, hard, black & white facts.
I am sure your intentions are good, Lil Flower Luv, but please remember: Even among Jesus’ 12, there was a traitor. Unfortunately, we must be watchful of all our clergy/religious.*
- He has publicly stated that he does not uphold Canon 915. *Archbishop Timothy Dolan of New York told an Albany television reporter on March 9 that he does not favor denying Holy Communion to Catholic politicians who support abortion and same-sex marriage. * [catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=5681] As Cardinal Burke (and others) have made clear, this Canon is not open to interpretation. *“It is discouraging that either members of the Church claim not to understand this or they claim that in some way there is an excuse for someone who is publicly and obstinately in grave sin to receive Holy Communion.” *catholicvote.org/discuss/index.php?p=11686
- His display at militantly-gay St. Francis Xavier Church in NYC last June spoke volumes. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=470532&highlight=st+francis+xavier forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=475436 And no, he has not done anything to explain his scandalous endorsement of the LGBTs, despite many requests to do so.
- His comments that there is no crisis in the Church are absurd. He says this as he heads to Ireland. (and we all know about Ireland’s crisis)
- He does not withhold the CCHD collection.
- He spoke very highly of his USCCB presidential predecessor Cardinal George and endorsed his work and said he would keep it going.
- He made a hulabaloo about the NYTimes’ anti-Catholicism in Oct. and proceeded to do a sit-down interview with CBS news in layman’s clothes - no collar. video here: newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/10/22/exclusive-archbishop-dolan-vs-the-n-y-times/
- There have been posters in various threads who have worked for the Archbishop and/or have lived in his former/present dioceses who speak to the fact that he did not clean up/route out heresy.
- He was on EWTN a few months ago as the main celebrant of a Mass honoring the relic of Don Bosco. The music was irreverent, priests on the altar were clapping their hands to the music, and the whole Mass was irreverent.
- Others have reported that the Traditional Latin Mass is not said at St. Patrick’s Cathedral.
- He put on a cheesehead hat during a homily in Wisconsin. Now, I now many say he only had it on for a few moments, but if you really understand what the SACRIFICE of the Mass is, would you debase it like that?!
- The quote that you used to have under your name, lil flower luv, had the Archbishop saying that he does not think heresy/dissent/secularism is the greatest threat to the Church!
You often speak in terms such as “The Archbishop knows better than you and I what is happening on the spiritual battlefield” or “He is is just as upset by it all as the rest of us” but how do you know this? I like to deal with the cold, hard, black & white facts.
I am sure your intentions are good, Lil Flower Luv, but please remember: Even among Jesus’ 12, there was a traitor. Unfortunately, we must be watchful of all our clergy/religious.*
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wisdomseeker
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Tigg
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This thread is about the Archbishop and his comments after being elected president of the USCCB, whose arm in “fighting poverty” is the scandal-ridden CCHD. How do you separate the two?
I believe faithful Catholics are getting tired and a little more than concerned over the state of affairs in their Church today. Hence the sarcasm seen in some posts including my own, altho it wasn’t directed specifically to any one person, but to all who refuse to acknowledge the problems we are having.
From the article in the OP:
If the mission of the conference under Abp. Timothy Dolan is to remain unchanged and things are “going well” then we can only assume it is business as usual. I expect that Catholic money will continue to be used to further the political agenda of the left which includes funding groups promoting SS marriage, family planning and reproductive health, (code for contraceptives) and abortion rights for the poor. In response to this, I’ll just steal one of the posted comments from the linked article which said, “Our Lady of Fatima, Please help us!”
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Aramis
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The conferences are provided for in canon law to establish national standards for which options may be used amongst those provided for in the Editio Typica of the Missal and other issues as defined in Canon Law.
As for the president:
Can. 452 §1. Each conference of bishops is to elect a president for itself, is to determine who is to perform the function of pro-president when the president is legitimately impeded, and is to designate a general secretary, according to the norm of the statutes.
§2. The president of a conference, and, when he is legitimately impeded, the pro-president, presides not only offer the general meetings of the conference of bishops but also offer the permanent council.and Can. 456 When a plenary meeting of a conference of bishops has ended, the president is to send a report of the acts of the conference and its decrees to the Apostolic See so that the acts are brought to its notice and it can review the decrees if there are any.
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P1L.HTM
His Holiness John Paul II wanted that intermediary step.
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lil_flower_luv
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I admit my signature had to be changed to remind all my Catholic brothers and sisters to remember His Holiness the Pope in their prayers, especially at this time.
The full quote was,“Maybe the greatest threat to the Church is not heresy, not dissent, not secularism, not even moral relativism, but this sanitized, feel-good, boutique, therapeutic spirituality that makes no demands, calls for no sacrifice, asks for no conversion, entails no battle against sin, but only soothes and affirms.” A spirituality that the Archbishop is talking about leads to heresy, dissent, secularism, etc, so is it not a greater threat?
As for your other points, my friend, I am sorry you see the Archbishop in such a light. Can we not light that one, small candle instead of working toward removing all of the dark at once?
I pray you and others will see (in time) that he is not the person you have labeled him to be. I am sorry he is not traditional enough for you, but he is working for good causes all in line with Mother Church. Before I resign from this thread, I would like to ask you to remember him in your prayers. Yes, deceit lies all around us, so let’s be careful in each step we take - and work more on building up the Kingdom, not tearing it down.
God bless all of you. +
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