architecture and design thread

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Marie:
OK! I found the Tapestries. Now I am laughing myself silly. ER! Unless they don’t have the Martin Luther one on the website, I think you are mistaking Thomas More for Luther. Go to the North Gallery and left click on the picture. It brings up a pop-up and their names are on the Tapestry. The one I thought might be Luther is Thomas More. 😃 😃

Those are gorgeous. WOW! And everyone in the tapestries are wonderful Catholic Saints people. ❤️
I’m not confusing Thomas More for Luther. Visit the cathedral.
 
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Crusader:
I’m not confusing Thomas More for Luther. Visit the cathedral.
I can’t. It is not around the block for me. It’s across country. 🙂 Could you tell the others who are close and visit where it is at? I checked all the tapestries on the site and clicked the window for closer view. None of them listed Luther. Each one has the names of the individuals depicted on the tapestry itself. He’s not on those. Is it a picture of him somewhere else?

The one in the North Gallery looked like it was him until I clicked the pop-up and read the names which are also part of the artwork itself. It was St Thomas More. The guy in the black hat like I always see Luther wear in paintings of him.
 
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Marie:
I can’t. It is not around the block for me. It’s across country. 🙂 Could you tell the others who are close and visit where it is at? I checked all the tapestries on the site and clicked the window for closer view. None of them listed Luther. Each one has the names of the individuals depicted on the tapestry itself. He’s not on those. Is it a picture of him somewhere else?

The one in the North Gallery looked like it was him until I clicked the pop-up and read the names which are also part of the artwork itself. It was St Thomas More. The guy in the black hat like I always see Luther wear in paintings of him.
I need to go and take and post a photo of it…
 
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Crusader:
I need to go and take and post a photo of it…
There are 25 tapestries for the “Communion of Saints” set - 11 on the North side, 14 on the South side (looking East, toward the altar), and they are all featured on the cathedral website. I just looked through them again myself, and I am pretty sure Martin Luther is not included in them, but again, if I missed him in there, you’ll have to convince me. I’ll try to contact some friends of mine at the chancery to confirm this, but I’ll also try to look the next time I visit the cathedral. If you saw him, are you sure he was in this tapestry set?
 
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Crusader:
I need to go and take and post a photo of it…
You very well could still be right Crusader. I studied the Art page tonight and I found that there are three sets of Tapestries, yet on the website only two are able to be viewed. See if you can photgraph it next time your there. It must be in the thrid group.
LA Website:
Of the three tapestry groups, the most prominent is the Communion of Saints along the south and north walls of the nave. Twenty-five fresco-like tapestries depict 135 saints and blesseds from around the world, including holy men and women of North America canonized by the Church.

Twelve untitled figures, including children of all ages, represent the many anonymous holy people in our midst. All the figures direct our eyes to the light of the great Cross-window above the Altar where the Eucharist is celebrated.
 
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Marie:
You very well could still be right Crusader. I studied the Art page tonight and I found that there are three sets of Tapestries, yet on the website only two are able to be viewed. See if you can photgraph it next time your there. It must be in the thrid group.
I will do my best…

LOL! It’s nice to see people digging into the nuts and bolts of this overly maligned cathedral. While I still belive any cathedral in LA should have been built in the Mission Style, it’s nice to see discussion on this building that not limited to “Mahony should have built a replica of St. Pat’s in LA.”
 
Just for the record, while I still personally think the LA cathedral is another postmodern horror, I never advocated that it should be a Gothic structure, St. Patrick’s or not.

For southern California, probably Romanesque would work quite well, or, as you mention, the mission style.

And now I shall retire from the thread, as it’s quite obvious that I am making a nuisance of myself.

Tcheuss, und gehen Sie mit Gott. 😉
 
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Wolseley:
Just for the record, while I still personally think the LA cathedral is another postmodern horror, I never advocated that it should be a Gothic structure, St. Patrick’s or not.

For southern California, probably Romanesque would work quite well, or, as you mention, the mission style.

And now I shall retire from the thread, as it’s quite obvious that I am making a nuisance of myself.

Tcheuss, und gehen Sie mit Gott. 😉
I don’t think you have made a nuisance of yourself. Why would you say that? Your opinion is as valid as anyone’s. This is not a love LA or leave it discussion. I don’t care for the style at all myself from the outside. I can’t visit it so enjoy learning from all sides about it. I’m not leaving just because I think the exterior stinks.

So far I like some things and detest others. Mostly I detest the architectural style but I like the tapestries. 😉
 
I’ll phone the Cathedral today and see if they can clarify the Martin Luthur issue.

I have a question if you’re interested. This was mentioned on someone’s blog a bit back.

What do you think of Chapels in the shopping mall or big stores like grocery chains or walmarts(theriverchurchmoa.org/index.php)?

I think I’m for it.
a. as americans, we are culturally trained to make life more convenient (frozen dinners, dry cleaners)
b.I can combined my weekly errands and go to church in the same trip (pick up groceries, get shoelaces, rent a movie, hit confession)
c. Malls have great hours for working families (open daily 9 to 9pm)
d. Malls have security guards.(this may be a bad thing…)
e. people of all ages initiate trips to the mall (teens, kids, elderly mall walkers)
f. People of all faiths go to the mall-great opportunity to evangelize.
e. Malls have lots of parking, and are genrally located off major roads and expressways.

Can you imagine going to the Galleria in Dallas and a Dominican Father swooshes by in full tunic, etc? Lots of malls have performance spaces, If the mall opens at 9, the diocese could hold a mass before opening and have a small chapel available through the day.
 
I think it would not be a very good idea. It would be more dumbing down of the Sacred.I can stretch to airports having chapels, bus stations also but that’s about it.

The main reason I don’t like the shopping mall idea is Sunday itself is a Holy Day. We should not promote shopping and consumerism on Sunday, which is the churchs teaching btw, not mine which I am espousing.

As to the Martin Luther picture, I eagerly await the answer to the big mystery none of us have been able to solve. 😃
 
I called the Tour Office at the Cathedral today and spoke to a very nice guide named Margaret. She said there are over 100 Saints, Blesseds and Venerables depicted in the Tapestries. There are also 12 ‘ordinaries’, boring people like you and me depicted throughout the tapestries. There is no depiction of Martin Luther. When I asked her which depiction could be mistaken for him;
“(sigh…) I have no idea. If you only knew how many inaccuracies are floating around about the Cathedral, you wouldn’t believe it.”

So the answer is No, Luther’s not depicted in the Cathedral.

My guess is, like most Very.Important.Places in LA-LA Land, there is some mythology built up about the place already (The Big Book of Cathedral Myths and Legends coming to your bookstore soon…).
 
Borromini,

Thanks for posts 11 and 12. Excellent and educational.

Speaking of educational posts here is a very interesting article by Duncan Stroik entitled:

"The Roots of Modernist Church Architecture" at:

http://www.adoremus.org/1097-Stroik.html

Duncan Stroik is Chair of the architecture school of Notre Dame University and founder of the magazine Sacred Architecture.
 
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amarikidd:
There is no depiction of Martin Luther.
This confirms what I thought; thanks. Also, the topic of the Stations came up earlier. If you go downstairs to the Chapel of St. Vibiana in the crypt, there I believe you will find the Stations of the Cross. You can read about them at the website. Scroll down: “The beautifully painted ceramic Stations of the Cross were designed by Professor Pattarino and are from St. Basil’s Church in Los Angeles.”
 
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amarikidd:
I called the Tour Office at the Cathedral today and spoke to a very nice guide named Margaret. She said there are over 100 Saints, Blesseds and Venerables depicted in the Tapestries. There are also 12 ‘ordinaries’, boring people like you and me depicted throughout the tapestries. There is no depiction of Martin Luther. When I asked her which depiction could be mistaken for him;
“(sigh…) I have no idea. If you only knew how many inaccuracies are floating around about the Cathedral, you wouldn’t believe it.”

So the answer is No, Luther’s not depicted in the Cathedral.

My guess is, like most Very.Important.Places in LA-LA Land, there is some mythology built up about the place already (The Big Book of Cathedral Myths and Legends coming to your bookstore soon…).
Sadly, the “guide” is mistaken. Then again the image of Luther could well have been removed since I saw it – within the last 90 days or so. I need to make arrangements to go down and take a picture.
 
Brennan Doherty, THANK YOU! Articles are GREAT!
This explains why I always hated Corbu (utopia my foot, Comrade! )and liked Saarin and Aalto.

Duncan Stroik’s best quote (articles as referenced below):
“This brings us back to the question, whether (this cathedral) will draw us in, invite us in, and once we’re in there, will it draw our thoughts to heaven, or will it only make us focus on ourselves or what is happening right now. A good church, a beautiful cathedral takes us from the material world to the immaterial.”

So most of you hate the Cathedral (or parts at least).
My fantasy Cathedral designer (living or dead)? Julia Morgan, gocalifornia.about.com/cs/photos1/l/bl_cahcp_castle.htm

Who’s not? Gehry,definetely.(greatbuildings.com/architects/Frank_Gehry.html)
 
Thanks for the articles, Brendan! Stroik is one of my favorite architects. I’m glad you enjoyed my posts.

I like a lot of the classical/traditional work being done at the moment, by Stroik and such. Some of it doesn’t quite go as far as I would like (one can ‘push the envelope’ in Classicism as much as one can in modernism–look at Borromini, the real one, not myself, and Gaudi for example), but I think this is a time to go out and build ‘canonical’ and ‘correct’ churches, like the immediate post-Tridentine period which gave us the Gesu, the real yardstick for church building of the next couple of centuries. Once we have the standards of iconography back (and also once the public realizes that traditional design does not always mean dropping St. Patrick’s in the middle of LA–though dropping it elsewhere would be appropriate sometimes, depending on the setting), we’ll be able to advance a bit more surely in the organic development of Church design. Note I say organic–this doesn’t mean the crazy outside interventions that crop up so much.

The reason I say this, I concern myself with development, is that some of the recent criticisms and replies about the Ave Maria chapel have claimed it as an authentic outgrowth of church design. I don’t think it is: the application of Gothic motives is a little bit naive, and it resembles more an 18th-century neo-Gothic warehouse than a church. Plus, living in Fla, with high winds and hurricanes and heat…yuck. Sure, they can cool it, but think of the bills! When you can make it easier to cut maintenence costs with an energy-friendly design (as are most tradionally-built churches), do it. Also, it’s hardly Frank Lloyd Wright-ish as many have claimed (and even if it were, given Wright’s rather human-based church design at Unity Temple, I’d be a bit worried about the iconographic implications).

Organic development is good, but we need to look long and hard into the past before we push too far ahead. Traditional architecture is not ‘revivalist’ but seeks to use the past in a living sense rather than simply slapping on columns thoughtlessly.

I think, with Catholicism becoming truly international, the interlacing of native and indigenous motifs with a more canonical and classical or traditional background could truly be striking–that sort of interplay and interbreeding in the New World brought out the wonderful Mission style, for example. Can you imagine a Nigerian-inspired baroque church? Or a Polynesian Gothic chapel? Wow. That’d be something. The exchange has to be real, and studied: it’s not just slapping an indian horse blanket onto an altar and saying hey, aren’t we multicultural! (On the other hand, a fiddleback Roman chausible worked with, say, Zuni pueblo motifs in silk and gold would be very striking…)

Regarding Julia Morgan, incidentally, as a fantasy cathedral builder: check out this prospective design for Oakland Cathedral by a Notre Dame student (yup, I’m at ND too, but haven;t done anything this cool…yet). Here it is, Christ the Light Cathedral by Domiane Forte: nd.edu/~jforte/east_elevation.htm

Also, regarding parish shopping: some dioceses have abolished parish boundaries and have personal parishes instead. Ideally (and probably legally speaking) you should stick to your home parish geographically, but, well, these are difficult times. (I guess it comes down whether to stick around and try and improve it or just jump ship…)

Matt Alderman, aka Borromini
holywhapping.blogspot.com
 
Having seen it on a business trip, I believe the correct name for the Cathedral of Los Angeles is “Our Lady, Queen of Concrete”

“Our Lady, Hope of Inmates” comes in at a close second.
 
Amarikidd, glad you liked the Duncan Stroik articles. He certainly seems to know what he is talking about.

Borromini, thanks for sharing your ideas. I agree that the new Ave Maria cathedral certainly does not look as if it’s developed from the gothic. To me, it looks like a large Bishop’s hat.

I also agree that we can incorporate architectural styles from other nations into more traditional styles. One of course sees this in the different architectural styles of European nations for instance. Each style is unique, yet they are beautiful. You probably mentioned this in an earlier post, but one of the big questions to ask is what effect the architecture of a church will have on the average Catholic, who probably knows next to nothing about architectural theory? To me, some church buildings just look ugly and/or uninspiring, and I can’t help thinking that may be the way others view it as well. One can see the beauty in Classical, Gothic, Baroque, etc. architecture and appreciate it, even if one may have a favorite style.

God bless.
 
I have to say that I am no fan of modern church architecture, either. Michael S. Rose’s book Ugly As Sin discusses how no matter what high-falutin’ ideas an architect has when he designs something that’s supposed to “represent” something, the common guy in the street is immediately going to associate what he sees with what it looks like to him. Thus we have building exteriors that look like cheese graters, tabernacles that look like bird feeders, and baptismal fonts that look like hot tubs.
Thanks for the suggestion; I’ve been looking into a book like that.
I think a lot of that can be found in the Los Angeles Cathedral. The Tabernacle is the worst—to me, it looks like something out of a sci-fi movie, with some sort of repulsive alien species embryo hatching out of an egg. The bishop’s chair looks like a winepress, and the statue of Mary looks like a Raelian priestess of some sort.
Oh yeah, when I first saw that, I thought it was a man. Postmodernism… Whenever I hear people talk about this modern “artwork” and “architecture,” they almost always refer to how technology made it possible, as though technology is what matters more than beauty and truth!

I think this proposed cathedral for the one destroyed during the L’Aquila, Italy, earthquake is even worse than the L.A. monstrosity.

For a better modern architect, check out Duncan Stroik, if you haven’t heard of him already.
 
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