Arctic ice 'disappearing fast'

  • Thread starter Thread starter Matt25
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The Universe is the most marvelously Divinely complicated puzzle that we humans cannot fathom or imagine. Just one more example of God’s Infinity - His Infinite creativity and imagination.

I apologize if I come on too strong or tend to overcomplicate things, but the phenomenon we are dealing with, with what appears to be a simple case of Artic ice melting, is so much more complicated.

But on the other hand, you understand math, which is good. So I am providing some references for you to look up to continue your research.

The topic is so complicated because of the earth’s magnetic field which creates “magnetic funnels” at the north and south poles. These funnels steer both solar and cosmic energy into the polar regions. A number of researchers have published on this topic. One source is the National Security Agency which is concerned about the effect of solar energy on causing premature re-entry of reconnaissance satellites. NSA declassified one of their reports and here is a link where you can download it:
albertmasetti.com/sunspot.html
They made it very readable and there are good graphics. *

Most of the energy of the universe is outside the visible range. One of many sources can be found at:

imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/f…2_clusters.html

You can start there to continue the research. There is a publication by Maggie Masetti (my daughter) published by NASA that provides a comparison of cosmic imagery generated by visual, x-ray, ultra violet, and other spectra. If you email her you can ask to have a copy mailed to you. Just google Maggie Masetti

A lot of this energy impacts our sun which may be the reason why our sun behaves so strangely at times. As you know our sun is one of the smallest stars in the universe.

The energy generated by the stars is so powerful, that in 1967 a Nobel prize was awarded to Hans Albrecht Bethe for his 1938 paper on the subject. It really opened up discussion of the topic.

This past weekend, there was a Lecture by Harm Blij on CSPAN2 Book TV on his book, “Why Geography Matters”. Blij demonstrated how often climate has changed RADICALLY and quickly, virtually overnight. This has happened several times already with huge effects and it is totally natural and normal even if devastating. But he presents the evidence.

Here is the link to buy the video tape or DVD of Blij’s lecture.

c-spanstore.org/shop/ind…cts_id=188820-1

Here is the Amazon link for the book by Harm Blij, “Why Geography Matters”

amazon.com/exec/obidos/t…=glance&s=books

Similarly, John Cox has written “Climate Crash” which I found at my local library yesterday:

551.79C
www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/030909

Cox points out (p. 170) that whole cultures were destroyed in as little as 30 years, around 600 AD. Other writers have commented similarly. Around 1540 Europe entered the Little Ice Age (one of many) from which Blij commented we are emerging.

Several writers have identified a number of time cycles that impact the Earth. Milankovich (there are several writers with similar spellings) and others have identified a variety of cycles that impact the Earth’s climate. Here is a link that provides a jumping off point to continue the research: albertmasetti.com/july2003.shtml

Finally, here are two links that will provide some basic data on solar activity.

sidc.oma.be/index.php3

sidc.oma.be/html/wolfjmms.html

Anyway, it is good that you know math, because so few people understand the use of numbers and how they work.

Some people provide some of the truth, but as you know we are required to not only provide the truth, but also the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Some folks just see opportunities to score debating points without being concerned about the whole truth. So if you are so inclined to explore science, there are some sources to start with. Your local or college library should be able to help getting these items. If not, send me an email and I’ll see what I can do. I can make copies of non-copyrighted items or of things I have written.*
 
Unfortunately my previous post was very poorly worded. I should learn not to post about things that really bother me at 4am in the morning, hopefully this will be less sarcastic. 🙂
40.png
walstan:
Pray very hard that you are right, because if not you can kiss goodbye to NO, LA, NY, and lots of these low lying cities. Continued human stupidity could, for once, make Hollywood right wshen it produced a dumb film called Waterworld.
Click to expand...
Ok… 👋 goodbye. But seriously, who ever said these cities would last forever? We keep trying to build permenant structures on a temporary world and it won’t work. For instance Pompeii was burried under a volcano and scientists say LA will eventually be cast into the sea by an earthquake (or taken up to Alaska - they can’t quite decide).
Actually they have been looking at the Earths weather history for about 500,000,000 (thats five hundred million) years. The current trends bear absolutely no comparisons with what has been seen before, i.e. the results are the same, cooling and warming, the time frame is unparralled, in other words a hell of a lot faster than anything in the past. What’s the only difference? WE ARE.
Click to expand...
They have only been taking measurements for the last 100 years regularly, and only infrequently over the course of the history of mankind. The 5e8 years (that’s five hundred million years 😉 ) is the amount of time it takes for the earth’s erosion and tectonic processes to destroy the geologic surface history. This means they can take measurements up to that point, but doesn’t mean they have anywhere near the accuracy or frequency of measurements to make the claims they do. Others have posted great links that demonstrate this.
Ah, the “why should I listen to predictions when they can’t even tell me if it’s going to rain tomorrow” argument. I wonder, do you have money in a pension fund? If so can you tell me what the stock market is going to do tomorrow? Or is it that you are relying in it’s growth (based on averages of course) over the much longer term? And what is the evidence for predicting such growth?

It seems that many are willing to invest their future in monetary terms on the say predictive so of financial analysts but, reject those same future predictions based on scientific principles, by scientists, because …?
Click to expand...
Actually, I don’t have a pension fund, but I have setup an IRA and as far as I know it is just a regular interest rate (but then, being a research scientist, I never really understood such things).

My point in bringing up the weather is that with the many things we don’t understand about it on a small scale, how can we make predictions on a large scale? Yes, I know that this is a poor argument since climatology and meteorology are two separate fields, but something in my gut says there should at least be a continuity between them.

What frustrates me the most is that we can’t burn fossil fuels, because of global warming. We can’t use wind energy, because it kills the birds. We can’t use hydroelectric (water) energy, because it kills the fish. Nor can we use nuclear energy because it might blow up and contaminate the world (nevermind that we have found much better methods in recent years). Oh, forgot solar energy, which won’t run the internet. At this rate they will have us living in dirt huts to ‘save’ the planet. Until they come up with better models that actually take into account water vapor and state that humans have more than a 1% effect on the environment, I’ll continue burning those fossil fuels to check CF. 😛

In the end, well…the world will end. We pray for it every day, “Lord Jesus, come again in Glory!” and “Thy kingdom come!”, so why should I be alarmed that it will happen sooner? I agree that we shouldn’t distroy the world, but telling us that we have to cripple our economy, use gas that is more likely to explode and give up the internet, because of some unsupported computer model is a little too much to take.
 
Lady Signus

What is unfortunate about any discussion regarding the environment is the assumption that those on opposite sides of the argument are, by association, extreme in their views. In many respects I agree with you, my sole argument does not involve draconian methods of handling the problem, it generally follows the pattern that one first has to acknowledge that there IS a problem. It is only in the last few months that that has been recognised by the administration in the States.

As far as using wind power and its ability to kill birds, Rubbish, Iv’e heard this argument so many times, yes a small number of birds do fly into wind turbines, equally so a small number of people drive into the central barrier on the highway and kill themselves. Maybe we should start an organisation calling for the banning of central barriers! Equally so Hydro-electric power does kill a number of fish, so does frying them in batter in a fish & chip shop! I appreciate these are not your arguments, they are the arguments of a few environmental nuts who live in trees and talk to the wind, (obviously in an attempt to produce all the hot air they do).

As far as Atomic Energy goes my personal opinion is that it is as safe as you want to make it and as expensive as you want to make it safe. In other words their are no free meals. As an engineer I do not have, or have I ever had, any reservations about the engineering safety of atomic energy, on the other hand I have a great deal of apprehension about the political safety of it. We have seen in the UK where political “Footballing” has created a situation of hidden costs, technical evasions and often downright lying to cover the reality of the works involved in producing, what could in reality be, a good, non poluting, clean form of energy. And before anyone takes
me to task about the waste, look up the using of FB reactors.

But, even better than this is the potential of Fussion reactors. So what has the world, America in particular spent on the development of fussion reactors? An interesting site is the CERN site look at this page of all members and associated members and tell me who’se missing?

public.web.cern.ch/Public/Content/Chapters/AboutCERN/WhatIsCERN/InvolvedCountries/InvolvedCountries-en.html

CERN is the worlds leading authority on particle physics and therefore by association, “Clean” Nuclear Fussion technology, so why is America not a contributor?
 
Has there ever been a study about the contribution of blacktop and the dark tops of buildings contributing to global warming?

With all the construction changing the softer green into dark colors, the heat generated from that should be alot based on a global scale.
 
40.png
walstan:
But, even better than this is the potential of Fussion reactors. So what has the world, America in particular spent on the development of fussion reactors? An interesting site is the CERN site look at this page of all members and associated members and tell me who’se missing?

public.web.cern.ch/Public/Content/Chapters/AboutCERN/WhatIsCERN/InvolvedCountries/InvolvedCountries-en.html

CERN is the worlds leading authority on particle physics and therefore by association, “Clean” Nuclear Fussion technology, so why is America not a contributor?
Click to expand...
Okay…

A) CERN is the European Organization for Nuclear Research, the world’s largest particle physics centre. Here physicists come to explore what matter is made of and what forces hold it together.
CERN exists primarily to provide them with the necessary tools. These are accelerators, which accelerate particles to almost the speed of light and detectors to make the particles visible.

Founded in 1954, the laboratory was one of Europe’s first joint ventures and includes now 20 Member States.

B) Observer States and Organizations currently involved in CERN programmes are: the European Commission, India, Israel, Japan, the Russian Federation, Turkey, UNESCO and the USA.

Apparently, the americans are involved. 🙂
 
40.png
rlg94086:
B) Observer States and Organizations currently involved in CERN programmes are: the European Commission, India, Israel, Japan, the Russian Federation, Turkey, UNESCO and the USA.

Apparently, the americans are involved. 🙂
Click to expand...
Probably due to Congress cutting off the funding for the USA large particle accelerator after it had started to be built in the early-mid 90s, leaving behind a large hole in the ground and some interesting plans and no money, if I remember correctly.

The USA doesn’t have a major particle accelerator to rival CERN because of that.

Mike
 
40.png
walstan:
Lady Signus

What is unfortunate about any discussion regarding the environment is the assumption that those on opposite sides of the argument are, by association, extreme in their views. In many respects I agree with you, my sole argument does not involve draconian methods of handling the problem, it generally follows the pattern that one first has to acknowledge that there IS a problem. It is only in the last few months that that has been recognised by the administration in the States.

As far as using wind power and its ability to kill birds, Rubbish, Iv’e heard this argument so many times, yes a small number of birds do fly into wind turbines, equally so a small number of people drive into the central barrier on the highway and kill themselves. Maybe we should start an organisation calling for the banning of central barriers! Equally so Hydro-electric power does kill a number of fish, so does frying them in batter in a fish & chip shop! I appreciate these are not your arguments, they are the arguments of a few environmental nuts who live in trees and talk to the wind, (obviously in an attempt to produce all the hot air they do).

As far as Atomic Energy goes my personal opinion is that it is as safe as you want to make it and as expensive as you want to make it safe. In other words their are no free meals. As an engineer I do not have, or have I ever had, any reservations about the engineering safety of atomic energy, on the other hand I have a great deal of apprehension about the political safety of it. We have seen in the UK where political “Footballing” has created a situation of hidden costs, technical evasions and often downright lying to cover the reality of the works involved in producing, what could in reality be, a good, non poluting, clean form of energy. And before anyone takes
me to task about the waste, look up the using of FB reactors.

But, even better than this is the potential of Fussion reactors. So what has the world, America in particular spent on the development of fussion reactors? An interesting site is the CERN site look at this page of all members and associated members and tell me who’se missing?

public.web.cern.ch/Public/Content/Chapters/AboutCERN/WhatIsCERN/InvolvedCountries/InvolvedCountries-en.html

CERN is the worlds leading authority on particle physics and therefore by association, “Clean” Nuclear Fussion technology, so why is America not a contributor?
Click to expand...
Whoa, whoa, whoa. In the United States, people get sent to prison [HARD TIME] for killing endangered bird species. Huge fines. In fact, it is a crime to even possess FEATHERS from protected bird species. Maybe someone could look up the criminal statutes for the specifics.

BUT, where windmills are concerned, WE DON’T CARE how many birds are killed from collisions with the blades.

This may seem inconsistent, but the environmentalists used to (and still bleed) over every bird death and over any encroachment into bird habitats. You have NO IDEA of what economic damage has been done to protect the habitat of the Spotted Owl, (which may not be all that rare in other parts of the country, BUT the timber industry had been shut down in large areas of the American West.)

To protect fish, dams are being demolished in the United States. [no joke.]

And despite the esteemed French generating 60%-80% of electricity using nuclear power (with, I understand, reactors of American design), in the US, there hasn’t been a new nuclear electric generating station in eons. * After TMI (Three Mile Island - in Pennsylvania) and the problem with Chernobyl, nuclear power in the United States got the chop.

Usually I do more homework before responding [as with previous post on this thread], but you pushed my buttons and I felt ( “feelings” ) an urgency to respond. [strong letter to follow, etc.]*
 
40.png
MikeWM:
Probably due to Congress cutting off the funding for the USA large particle accelerator after it had started to be built in the early-mid 90s, leaving behind a large hole in the ground and some interesting plans and no money, if I remember correctly.

The USA doesn’t have a major particle accelerator to rival CERN because of that.

Mike
Click to expand...
Well, we have a couple of particle accelerators, but you must be talking about the big doughnut. It would have been nice if that had been completed, but luckily other members of the global scientific community stepped up. Meanwhile, we continue to do research on our doughnut in Illinois and the good ole linear accellerators, like the one near me (Stanford).

I’m happy for CERN that they have a much bigger doughnut…with sprinkles. Hopefully, our (that would be all of us) scientists find the breakthrough needed for nuclear fusion.

One thing I don’t understand is why there are some who look at every effort in the world and say “Why isn’t America a contributor?” Do we have to be? I don’t fear European innovation…or any other innovation for that matter. Our company’s research center is going to release a revolutionary technology in semiconductor packaging next year…all done by Japanese scientists. I look forward to it, because it will help drive other innovations by my customers throughout the world.
 
40.png
rlg94086:
Well, we have a couple of particle accelerators, but you must be talking about the big doughnut. It would have been nice if that had been completed, but luckily other members of the global scientific community stepped up. Meanwhile, we continue to do research on our doughnut in Illinois and the good ole linear accellerators, like the one near me (Stanford).
Click to expand...
Yeah, I do realise (though I see it may have seemed like I didn’t) that the US does have particle accelerators, but didn’t get the ‘big one’ 🙂

Mike
 
Al Masseti, etal

Alright. People and Governments of the world want solutions, ESPECIALLY SOLUTIONS WHICH ARE NOT OBVIOUS TO THE EXPERTS, SCIENTISTS. ENGINEERS.

Well. these NON-OBVIOUS SOLUTIONS ARE INVENTIONS!!! THEY ARE INTELLECTUAL PROPERTIES!!! SOMEBODY PUT INTELLECTUAL WORK TO PRODUCE IT. AND NOT JUST LOTS AND LOTS OF HOURS BUT MONEY TOO.

What do governments and people do to ensure that the works of these inventors are not stolen???

GOVERNMENT’'S SOLUTION IS TO MAKE THE INVENTOR SPEND $25,000 FOR EACH AND EVERY PATENT NUMBER???

An invention needs several patent numbers to be fully protected. If you look at gadgets of Black and Decker, Sears, Montgomerry Ward for example, you will see that simple gadgets have say 10 patent numbers. So ($25,000)(10)=$250,000.

AUTHORS on books and biographies on inventors, especially in the past, have concluded and written that POVERTY IS THE MOTHER OF BOTH NECESSITY AND INVENTIONS. What do governments and people expect these poverty stricken inventors to do??? PAY $250,000 TO PATENT ATTORNEYS AND PATENT OFFICE???
 
The Eurasian:
Al Masseti, etal

Alright. People and Governments of the world want solutions, ESPECIALLY SOLUTIONS WHICH ARE NOT OBVIOUS TO THE EXPERTS, SCIENTISTS. ENGINEERS.

Well. these NON-OBVIOUS SOLUTIONS ARE INVENTIONS!!! THEY ARE INTELLECTUAL PROPERTIES!!! SOMEBODY PUT INTELLECTUAL WORK TO PRODUCE IT. AND NOT JUST LOTS AND LOTS OF HOURS BUT MONEY TOO.

What do governments and people do to ensure that the works of these inventors are not stolen???

GOVERNMENT’'S SOLUTION IS TO MAKE THE INVENTOR SPEND $25,000 FOR EACH AND EVERY PATENT NUMBER???

An invention needs several patent numbers to be fully protected. If you look at gadgets of Black and Decker, Sears, Montgomerry Ward for example, you will see that simple gadgets have say 10 patent numbers. So ($25,000)(10)=$250,000.

AUTHORS on books and biographies on inventors, especially in the past, have concluded and written that POVERTY IS THE MOTHER OF BOTH NECESSITY AND INVENTIONS. What do governments and people expect these poverty stricken inventors to do??? PAY $250,000 TO PATENT ATTORNEYS AND PATENT OFFICE???
Click to expand...
What in the world does this have to do with this thread? Please tie your comments into the discussion and stop yelling.

Thanks and God Bless,
Robert
 
40.png
rlg94086:
What in the world does this have to do with this thread? Please tie your comments into the discussion and stop yelling.

Thanks and God Bless,
Robert
Click to expand...
%%%EXPERIMENTAL%%%
Robert

Problems like this need TECHNICAL solutions. Scientists, engineers, experts get paid by the government with tax dollars which should be better used compensating inventors for solutions which really work, not these scientists or engineers who get paid even though their solutions do not work. You see, an inventor will not get paid UNLESS HIS INVENTION WORKS AND IS USED BY GOVERNMENT OR PEOPLE.

Take the case of Wilbur and Orville Wright, mere bicycle repairmen who invented the first flying airplane. As mere bicycle repairmen, you think NASA would hire them??? No way!!! But look, WITHOUT WILBUR AND ORVILLE WRIGHT, THERE WOULD BE NO AVIATION INDUSTRIES, NO SPACE INDUSTRIES, NO NASA. So who profited from the airplane that they invented??? The Wright Brothers or these thousands and thousands of engineers, scientists, huge corporations, special interests???

The US Constitution article 1 Section 8, Clause 6 not only recommends but MANDATES congress to encourage inventors to invent new products, new solutions, new processes, new devices TO SOLVE PROBLEMS THAT DEFY THE EXPERTS!!! All high officials like congressmen , senators, cabinet and department heads, vice presidents, presidents all swore to uphold the US Constitution- against all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC ENEMIES. But the Special Interests have taken over and with campaign monies and lobbyists have caused legislators to produce laws that are not good for the country but good for the special interests.

The melting of the Polar Caps for example. The burning of fossil fuels and resultant CO2 in the atmosphere HAS A LOT TO DO WITH THE MELTING OF THE POLAR CAPS. Yet ethanol and equivalents, WHICH ARE INVENTIONS - CAN CAUSE FUEL TO BE DERIVED FROM SUGAR CANES,WEEDS, TREES. And because these plants need CO2 as (name removed by moderator)UT, THE CO2 PROBLEM IN THE SKY WILL DISAPPEAR AS THESE PLANTS INHALE THEM!!!

That’s why it is important to encourage inventions, for example by repealing laws that make it necessary for inventors to spend $25,000 per patent number to pay patent lawyers and the US Patent Office or about $250,000 for a typical invention which needs about 10 patent numbers to protect it. OTHERWISE THE TRUE AND FIRST INVENTOR WILL BE ROBBED!!! THE TRUE AND FIRST INVENTOR WHO OFTENTIMES IS POVERTY STRICKEN WILL NOT EVEN BE ABLE TO FILE AND GET A SINGLE PATENT. AS SUCH, THE WRONG PEOPLE, THE JOHNNY COME LATELIES, THE HUGE SPECIAL INTERESTS WITH THEIR BIG MONIES, BIG TEAMS OF PATENT LAWYERS, ENORMOUS CAPACITIES TO PAY PATENT FEES, THEY WILL END UP APPLYING AND RECEIVING THE PATENT CERTIFICATES. SO ALSO WITH THESE GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS AND THIS SO CALLED PUBLIC DOMAIN. THEY MAKE SO MANY SPECIAL INTERESTS RULES SO MUCH SO THAT AN INVENTOR WILL EASILY LOSE HIS RIGHT TO PATENT THE INVENTION BECAUSE THE INVENTION HAS ALREADY BEEN SUCKED INTO THE PUBLIC DOMAIN BY THESE INTENTIONALLY BIASED LAWS, STATUTES OF LIMITATIONS, ETCETERA, ETCETERA WHICH ARE INTENTIONALLY AIMED TO ROB AND CHEAT THE INVENTOR. NOT ALL INVENTORS CAN COMMUNICATE WITH THE PUBLIC LIKE EURASIAN. MOST OF THEM ONLY KNOW HOW TO INVENT AND DESIGN DEVICES AND MACHINERIES. AND THEY END UP CHEATED BY THE SYSTEM. IN FACT MANY OF THEM HAVE LOST THEIR MINDS AND ARE IN THE MENTAL ASSYLUMS. SOME OF THEM HAVE COMMITED SUICIDE AND ARE IN THEIR GRAVES, AND I HOPE THEIR SOULS ARE NOT IN HELL FROM THE SUICIDE. WHAT WASTES. GOD GIVES US THESE INVENTORS TO PROVIDE SOLUTIONS THAT EVEN THE SCIENTISTS AND EXPERTS DON’T HAVE. THEN WE CHEAT THESE INVENTORS AND SEND THEM TO THE MENTAL ASSYLUMS AND THEIR SOULD POSSIBLY TO HELL WITH THESE SUICIDES!!! IS THIS CHRISTIAN TO CHEAT THESE INVENTORS??? And then people wonder why there are so many poor people??? Stop cheating these inventors!!! They are the ones who can provide the non obvious solutions, products, devices, new services, processes that will put the millions of unemployed people to work so that employment will reach 100% and the crime rate will approach zero percent!!! Even this global warming will be solved by one or more inventors by their inventions.
the-eurasian@earthlink.net
 
If I may interject a small, quiet comment here, amongst all the screaming about causes and all the finger-pointing…

It’s too late to do anything about it now. Even if we were to stop virtually all human-produced greenhouse gas emissions within the next hour, the damage has already been done, and it will continue to produce more erosion of the atmosphere for decades to come.

It doesn’t matter if the damage is human-produced, naturally-produced, or both. It doesn’t matter if the cause is global warming, sunspots, greenhouse gasses, or combinations of them all. It doesn’t matter if the primary perpetrators are Americans, Europeans, Chinese, Japanese, or Klingons.

It’s too late to do anything about it now.

It’s here, it’s happening, and it’s going to continue to happen, and there isn’t a thing we can do about it. The environmentally-conscious may scream that “we need to stop it stop it stop it!!!”, but even if we stop right now, it’s still too late. The planet is going to continue to heat up no matter WHAT we do.

Perhaps instead of arguing and bickering, we should be drawing up long-range plans as to how we’re going to save ourselves, if we can. Because once the cities are flooded and the ice age hits, it’ll be a real poor time to look around and say to ourselves, “Gee, instead of complaining about who endorsed the Kyoto Treaty, I guess we should have been figuring out how we were going to move the British Museum and the New York Public Library to sub-Saharan Africa and Central America.”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top