Are all bishops and priests supposed to know how to celebrate the Tridentine Mass?

[ProVobis]

… those people who know Latin (Catholic and private-schools -educated) and those who don’t (public school- educated).

Perhaps we don’t hear a lot of complaints is because there is a Latin Mass parish in my city, and people who long for this form do not have to attend the OF.

Just so you know they teach Latin at Rockford College (probably close to you) and the University of Illinois.

a2zcolleges.com/advanced_results.asp?state=IL&Foreign_Languages=Latin

linked from
a2zcolleges.com/Majors/Latin.html

This counts the majors. I know where I attended Latin was/is offered as a minor.

 

[ringil]

I’m not quite sure about that. Why is it that people start writing or sending emails to their bishops whenever the priest decides to say the OF Mass ad orientem, or replace a vernacular hymn with a Latin one, etc.? One priest I know simply told his congregation, “What’s the point?” and he replaced the OF with the EF. No more complaints to the bishop.

Catholics on both sides of the liturgical spectrum- and you know this is true- send far too many letters to Bishops complaining about their priests.

Laymen need to know there place.

 

[Cat]

Just so you know they teach Latin at Rockford College (probably close to you) and the University of Illinois.

a2zcolleges.com/advanced_results.asp?state=IL&Foreign_Languages=Latin

linked from
a2zcolleges.com/Majors/Latin.html

This counts the majors. I know where I attended Latin was/is offered as a minor.

Rockford University (it’s now a university) is a private school that does not serve the vast majority of Rockford area families.

It is very difficult to be accepted into the academically-rigorous U of I, and it’s also not very cheap; 20,000 per year tuition several years ago, and who knows what it is now.

I don’t understand your point. My point is clear–most people in my city and the surrounding area who attend or attended PUBLIC schools do not learn any Latin at all. Keep in mind that the drop-out rate in my city for African American men is 50%. For that matter, the drop-out rate in general is 25%. Only 20% of the people in our city have a Bachelors Degree–we are considered under-educated, which is one reason why companies don’t want to locate here, which means that we have an extremely-high unemployment rate (13=16%). And that means that we have a high crime rate, as desperate people often turn to crime to meet their needs, and the gangs and mobs are happy about that, because it gives them plenty of new recruits.

I’m getting a little weary of this talk about Latin–in my city, people are concerned about survival, having a roof over their heads, getting enough to eat, and hopefully avoiding being shot dead during a gang war. Many churches, Catholic and Protestant, are putting a lot of their physical and spiritual resources into ministering to those needs, and the idea the Catholic parishes should expend additional energy learning the Latin Mass is simply not on the plate. I think they would look at you all and say, “Yes, I’ll do that right after I feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit the sick and dying, provide comfort to all the many people in jail, and provide wholesome educational and recreational opportunities for the children.”

There is a Latin Mass parish (oratory) located in the heart of our downtown, which is where many (but not all by any means!) of the poor and struggling are located–I know that some attend this parish and hopefully are having their spiritual and physical hunger filled by that parish. Latin Mass is offered daily, and several times on weekends.

Perhaps some of you who long for Latin Mass would like to move to my city rather than continuing to long for it in vain! Welcome!

I am involved with both the Latin Mass parish and my own very contemporary OF parish, and as far as I have been able to see over the ten years that I’ve been Catholic, there is no conflict between the two forms of the Mass here in my city. I’m so glad that I don’t live where some of you live, where it seems that there is constant fighting and frustration. My city may be miserable in many aspects, but at least the Catholics get along, and the Protestants also get along fairly well with the Catholics.

 

[ProVobis]

I don’t understand your point. My point is clear–most people in my city and the surrounding area who attend or attended PUBLIC schools do not learn any Latin at all.

I was trying to tell you gently that this isn’t necessarily so. In the 60’s it was the Catholic schools which started dropping the Latin requirement first, which, I’ve repeatedly said, didn’t make any sense. The public schools WERE teaching Latin; I know because most of my friends learned there in high school and I attended the U of I. In fact, many of the young ladies there were quite passionate with the grammar and the language. We didn’t even talk about the Mass. Today you’ll still find many of the state universities teaching Latin; of course you’re going to pay for it.

.

 

[jeannetherese]

I worry that we may be setting up some false dichotomies between feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and offering the Agnus Dei at both EF and OF Masses.
Just as musically complex modern songs (Such as the all but universally recognized on CAF “On Eagle’s Wings” with its changing time signatures and challenging range) can be taught to lay people, most of whom are unable to read music, so to can simple Latin responses be taught to the same people.
It just take a little determination to make the Latin responses available and to put up with the first month or two of people learning something new.
We go through this in my parishes every time we get new songbooks/hymnals in any language and we are adding spanish songs (such a Pan de Vida) in one parish which has been predominantly Anglo for generations. People can learn new things-they do so all the time.
I wonder if, perhaps, many posters might be valuing some of the ways Catholics reach out to the poor very strongly, but seeing different approaches as most likely to be of help.
Some posters may point to the importance of catechesis, but feel that there is such a need for material help right now, that this need must receive a bit more emphasis at present.
Another approach might value concentrating a great deal of effort into Catechesis (with the Mass so important both as sacrament and as catechesis) with the understanding that those who become very strongly rooted in their faith will have a very solid platform for evangelization which will, over time, lead to many more boots on the ground growing the faith and helping others.
I tend to lean on the catechesis emphasis myself, because I know from personal experience that it is easier for me to help the poor when I have a bit of extra, than to do so when I’m feeling pinched myself and my catechesis helps me to work on this issue. Of course, that is all about my failings; others are probably much better Christians than I am and in less need of formation.
In my case, emphasizing catechesis is kind of like the old “give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach him to fish and he can feed himself” saying. the more formation I get, the better equipped I am to help others and to help others help others.
May God bless all who post to our thread! Amen!

 

[Cat]

I was trying to tell you gently that this isn’t necessarily so. In the 60’s it was the Catholic schools which started dropping the Latin requirement first, which, I’ve repeatedly said, didn’t make any sense. The public schools WERE teaching Latin; I know because most of my friends learned there in high school and I attended the U of I. In fact, many of the young ladies there were quite passionate with the grammar and the language. We didn’t even talk about the Mass. Today you’ll still find many of the state universities teaching Latin; of course you’re going to pay for it.

.

It doesn’t really matter what the colleges teach if 75% of our population doesn’t go to college.

And even if they do attend college, I would imagine that the number of students who actually take even a semester of Latin is probably equal to the number of students who by choice don’t drink alcohol.

Of course the high schools taught Latin when I was in high school in the 1970s. I took it.

But that’s been a long time, and a lot of people who were Catholic then are no longer Catholic, or more correctly, are no longer attending Catholic churches. Of course those who do attend do know Latin, but they also grew up in an era when Catholics were expected to sing sotto voce during Mass, and any volume was considered inappropriate. So no one can hear these sweet older souls when they whisper the Latin hymns.

Many parishioners nowadays are younger people who did not have the good fortune to have Latin available to them in high school.

And just because Latin was available doesn’t mean a lot of us took it. I took it for one semester and then dropped it because I was also taking German. There were about 8 kids in my class.

I will admit that perhaps I’m wrong about the reason why Latin hymns are not used in our parish other than during Benediction. I certainly can’t read the music minister’s mind . I know that he loves Latin and chant and is capable of singing it and teaching it, and I’ve seen him do it.

But I honestly believe that the main reason these hymns are not used is that there are others that are just as beautiful and the majority of people (exceptions would be all the Filipinos, Hispanics, and Nigerians) in the congregation can understand them and join in the singing.

 

[Aramis]

Actually if you looked at pages from the 750 A.D. Missal you’d recognize that the Roman Canon (EP1) hasn’t changed, in language or format.

You’d find the order of mass has changed - slightly - since 1200. The differences between the Trent and Dominican missals is directly illustrative - the dominicans have been forbidden to make changes since 1250 or so, and was identical to the Roman when initially issued.

The preparation of the gifts, for example, being done outside the body of the mass is the most striking difference. And surviving missal texts from 800 show the introit having a different sequence - but last I heard, no full Roman missal survives from before about 1000AD; the fragments of the missals of the 500’s are considerably different during the introit and liturgy of the word, as well as post-communion prayers.

 

[Psalitte]

No requirement as far as I know, but I would hope it were a reality, imagine a Byzantine Priest only knowing the Liturgy of St, John Chrysostom, but not St. Basil.

 

[ProVobis]

No requirement as far as I know, but I would hope it were a reality, imagine a Byzantine Priest only knowing the Liturgy of St, John Chrysostom, but not St. Basil.

FWIW, the SJC was originally set up to be tri-ritual including knowing the Byzantine Rite. However, according to one priest,

Ever since the Tridentine Mass came here, we have continued to also use the Novus Ordo Missae. Fr. Phillips originally imagined that the new community would be tri-ritual, as a way of making a bridge between East and West. But it became apparent that there were important juridical issues in formalizing the Byzantine rite here. This plan was tabled, and our focus has been on the two forms of the Roman Rite. Our priests say both the ordinary and the extraordinary form. We offer all that the Church offers within the Roman Rite.

Source: musicasacra.com/commentaries/kolinski/

 

[Ave_Maria_1]

As one has the opportunity to attend the TLM, the appreciation for it grows. And it seems to be the young priests who are also finding this. We are fortunate to have a Sunday TLM at a parish in my town at this present time. I attend when I can.

As more priests learn and offer the TLM, more and more people will come. At first it is a surprise because we are used to singing (banal) songs and with many responses, etc. We are not used to more silence and the deeper entering into praying the Mass or reading the missal.

What I have noticed in the parish that offers the TLM is a greater reverence at the Holy Sacrifice. Talking and chatting is pretty much eliminated even at the Novus Ordo except for the older folks. A greater modesty in dress seems to occur. In other words, once exposed to the TLM, it affects other things in the parish as well.

It would be good for all bishops to learn the TLM and offer it especially on special feasts and to ask that their seminarians learn it as well. It is our patrimony! And we want it back.

 

[ringil]

It would be good for all bishops to learn the TLM and offer it especially on special feasts and to ask that their seminarians learn it as well. It is our patrimony! And we want it back.

What would be the logic of a Bishop who routinely celebrates the OF to celebrate the EF on feast days?

Neither the OF or EF are superior rites. The OF is the ordinary form of the mass and there would be no reason for a bishop to single out feasts for the EF unless to give an impression the the EF is an especially holy form of the Mass, when it is equal in grace and holiness to the OF.

 

[Aramis]

No requirement as far as I know, but I would hope it were a reality, imagine a Byzantine Priest only knowing the Liturgy of St, John Chrysostom, but not St. Basil.

Very different situation. The Roman EF is a precursor to the OF, and is not at all continued for ordinary use; the EF has significantly different rubrics from the OF as well.

The DL of St Basil is to the DL of St John as OF EP I is to OF EP IV - longer, more instructive, but not rubrically different. Further, the DL of St Basil was retained for Great Fast Sunday Liturgies by St. John himself; St. John’s liturgy is a direct shortening by reducing the text of the anaphora.

 

[robwar]

I was trying to tell you gently that this isn’t necessarily so. In the 60’s it was the Catholic schools which started dropping the Latin requirement first, which, I’ve repeatedly said, didn’t make any sense. The public schools WERE teaching Latin; I know because most of my friends learned there in high school and I attended the U of I. In fact, many of the young ladies there were quite passionate with the grammar and the language. We didn’t even talk about the Mass. Today you’ll still find many of the state universities teaching Latin; of course you’re going to pay for it.

.

My daughter did attend a charter school that taught latin. that is a public school. I do think Catholic schools should teach Latin starting in the elementary grades, not just an option for high school. But this is getting off topic.

 

[otjm]

That said, I don’t believe that the seminaries set up by societies specifically dedicated to saying the EF would teach the Novus Ordo as well. That’s not so great a concern to me as the NO rubrics are simpler than those of the Traditional Mass; thus, one who has learned the older Mass could easily say the new Mass. That said, I don’t know why he’d ever want to.

Well, considering that a priest is responsible for the souls of those under his care and the vast majority of people seem to prefer the OF, that would be good enough reason. SP does not demand that a priest say the EF; only that if a stable group requests it, that he is to do his best to see that their spiritual needs are fulfilled.

And what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

It amazes me the people who insist that for their spiritual welfare, they must have the EF, and are so completely dismissive of anyone else’s spiritual welfare. It speaks volumes.

 

[otjm]

The average age of a priest now in the U.S. is what, 63 or so? Doesn’t sound to me like the Mass since 1964 or thereabouts is drawing many to the priesthood per the demand as you see it.

Perhaps in the US, although vocations are up the last several years; however, vocations have been high particularly in Africa - where Latin is anything but a custom. So world wide, it would appear that not having the Mass in Latin is no hindrance to vocations.

 

[Cat]

What would be the logic of a Bishop who routinely celebrates the OF to celebrate the EF on feast days?

Neither the OF or EF are superior rites. The OF is the ordinary form of the mass and there would be no reason for a bishop to single out feasts for the EF unless to give an impression the the EF is an especially holy form of the Mass, when it is equal in grace and holiness to the OF.

Good post.

It’s my personal opinion that rather than bishops learning the EF Mass and using it only a few times a year, it would be more useful and edifying for them to seek out priests who are seminary-trained in the EF, and recruit these priests into their diocese, and help them to establish financially-secure, orthodox (in agreement with Catholic Church teaching) EF parishes that are in full communication with Rome, and that cooperate enthusiastically with the other local parishes (OF) in accomplishing the work of building the Kingdom of God in their area.

IMO, there is more to the EF Mass than just a Mass form that people attend once a week. It’s so wonderful when those who love this Mass form can be part of an actual parish. Many times, these Christians share a lot of things in common; e.g., a love of tradition, a preference for modesty in daily life, interest in a classical education and subjects (e.g., history, literature), an interest in not just reciting Latin in the Mass, but actually learning it, a love of certain musical styles, a love of conversation and debate (not arguing), and as some have mentioned on CAF, certain social practices and enjoyments.

I’m certainly not advocating separatism. I just think that it’s ideal when people can be in a parish that is a good match for them and their family. Many times on CAF, we’ve heard from people who drive many miles each week to attend an EF Mass, but they don’t know anyone in that church, and they don’t really feel comfortable in their OF parish. So they live their faith alone, and this isn’t what Jesus intended. We are to live in fellowship with other Christians, and I see nothing wrong and EVERYTHING right about seeking out like-minded Christians.

There are many Protestant church buildings that are “For Sale” because the congregation has gone bankrupt and had to close down. Last night after my organ workshop, I drove home past three such churches. These are available fairly cheap ($300,000 or less), and would be easily-convertible into Catholic churches–perhaps the newly-formed EF parishes could move into the most suitable of these buildings. It’s a lot cheaper than building a new church building.

That’s what I would rather see a bishop do. I think that a bishop will accomplish more good by establishing EF parishes in his diocese rather than just learning to say the EF Mass himself.

 

[ProVobis]

What would be the logic of a Bishop who routinely celebrates the OF to celebrate the EF on feast days?

I wonder, though, if it would be possible for a bishop just to celebrate a (Pontifical) Mass (in Latin) without regards to whether it’s an OF or an EF. Most people wouldn’t know the difference anyway, as many thought Pope Benedict was saying the Old Mass wherever he said it. It certainly wasn’t what they were used to.

 

[ProVobis]

…however, vocations have been high particularly in Africa - where Latin is anything but a custom.

Maybe not. I think someone mentioned on some youtube video that they actually have more Gregorian chant in Africa, but I haven’t seen any official statistics.

 

[Rich_C]

Maybe not. I think someone mentioned on some youtube video that they actually have more Gregorian chant in Africa, but I haven’t seen any official statistics.

I have no idea but we made friends with a young couple from Africa (Ghana, I think but don’t quote me) at our Latin Mass. The fellow told me that while visiting his grandmother back in Africa, he sang part of the Missa Angelus and she joined in from memory.

She said she missed the old Latin Mass and wishes she could go again. From what I gather, congregational chant was big there before Vatican II, unlike here in the States where it was just coming back in the '40s and '50s thanks to the “Pray the Mass” movement, of which Abp. Sheen was a part.

Edit: now that I think of it, the first or second Latin Mass I ever assisted at was said by an African priest. He was just visiting that week. I didn’t know he was foreign until the homily.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Good post.

It’s my personal opinion that rather than bishops learning the EF Mass and using it only a few times a year, it would be more useful and edifying for them to seek out priests who are seminary-trained in the EF, and recruit these priests into their diocese, and help them to establish financially-secure, orthodox (in agreement with Catholic Church teaching) EF parishes that are in full communication with Rome, and that cooperate enthusiastically with the other local parishes (OF) in accomplishing the work of building the Kingdom of God in their area.

IMO, there is more to the EF Mass than just a Mass form that people attend once a week. It’s so wonderful when those who love this Mass form can be part of an actual parish. Many times, these Christians share a lot of things in common; e.g., a love of tradition, a preference for modesty in daily life, interest in a classical education and subjects (e.g., history, literature), an interest in not just reciting Latin in the Mass, but actually learning it, a love of certain musical styles, a love of conversation and debate (not arguing), and as some have mentioned on CAF, certain social practices and enjoyments.

I’m certainly not advocating separatism. I just think that it’s ideal when people can be in a parish that is a good match for them and their family. Many times on CAF, we’ve heard from people who drive many miles each week to attend an EF Mass, but they don’t know anyone in that church, and they don’t really feel comfortable in their OF parish. So they live their faith alone, and this isn’t what Jesus intended. We are to live in fellowship with other Christians, and I see nothing wrong and EVERYTHING right about seeking out like-minded Christians.

There are many Protestant church buildings that are “For Sale” because the congregation has gone bankrupt and had to close down. Last night after my organ workshop, I drove home past three such churches. These are available fairly cheap ($300,000 or less), and would be easily-convertible into Catholic churches–perhaps the newly-formed EF parishes could move into the most suitable of these buildings. It’s a lot cheaper than building a new church building.

That’s what I would rather see a bishop do. I think that a bishop will accomplish more good by establishing EF parishes in his diocese rather than just learning to say the EF Mass himself.

Great post; however, wouldn’t it be great if a Bishop did both?