Are all bishops and priests supposed to know how to celebrate the Tridentine Mass?

[Cat]

The Novus Ordo can feel very man-centered at times. Too many times, I’ve seen Mass changes (that are worthy of defrocking IMO) that put the priest at the center of the Mass, telling jokes or focusing on the laity. The EF doesn’t do that. The EF is the priest offering himself unto our Lord. Nothing about it has changed in 2000 years. Jesus and the apostles went unto the Altar of God (Psalm 42, introibo ad altare dei) and did not make a comedy show about it.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I didn’t think the EF Mass was 2000 years old.

I thought that the Tridentine Mass (Latin Mass) was established after the Council of Trent in the 1500s.

 

[ProVobis]

Yes, the other issue is the priest shortage. There are barely enough priests to cover the Masses that are currently being offered.

Hmmm. I think if this were true, more bishops would not only allow priests to say more than 2 Masses per day, but actually ask them to. Very few people under 30 are attending Mass these days. If anything the demand is to have more priests tend to the hispanic communities, and that’s very slow in coming, at least in the U.S. If anything the SP is a long-term solution to a long-term problem, at least in the eyes of Pope Benedict.

 

[robwar]

The Novus Ordo can feel very man-centered at times. Too many times, I’ve seen Mass changes (that are worthy of defrocking IMO) that put the priest at the center of the Mass, telling jokes or focusing on the laity. The EF doesn’t do that. The EF is the priest offering himself unto our Lord. Nothing about it has changed in 2000 years. Jesus and the apostles went unto the Altar of God (Psalm 42, introibo ad altare dei) and did not make a comedy show about it.

that is just your opinion. Likewise the Mass has changed and been altered in 2000 years. I don’t think the early apostles spoke in Latin. The subject of this thread is if priests or bishops are suppose to know how to do EF Masses. It isn’t about what peoples opinions are about NO Masses. Again this is the problem. Catholics that favor EF Masses turn threads like this into lets bash the approved form of the Mass by the Catholic Church and it is kinda offensive to repeatedly see on CAF. Already there are posters making blanket statements like you have with no proof just uninformed opinions. Seriously, you really think the Mass has not changed at all in one iota from the apostles until Vatican II? Looking at this from neutral territory, it is a big turn off. There isn’t one form better than another. For priest to do EF Masses, there has to be a demand for it. Except for small groups of people interested in it, the demand is not there no matter how many that come on Catholic forums wishing for it. A busy priest isn’t going to take one of the regular Masses that may serve 800 people to an EF Mass to satisfy 50. Likewise the other problem is the attitude of it’s proponents. Why would I want to drive 45 minutes out of my way to become puffed up because I attend an EF Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I didn’t think the EF Mass was 2000 years old.

I thought that the Tridentine Mass (Latin Mass) was established after the Council of Trent in the 1500s.

Actually if you looked at pages from the 750 A.D. Missal you’d recognize that the Roman Canon (EP1) hasn’t changed, in language or format.

 

[kozlosap]

that is just your opinion. Likewise the Mass has changed and been altered in 2000 years. I don’t think the early apostles spoke in Latin. The subject of this thread is if priests or bishops are suppose to know how to do EF Masses. It isn’t about what peoples opinions are about NO Masses. Again this is the problem. Catholics that favor EF Masses turn threads like this into lets bash the approved form of the Mass by the Catholic Church and it is kinda offensive to repeatedly see on CAF. Already there are posters making blanket statements like you have with no proof just uninformed opinions. Seriously, you really think the Mass has not changed at all in one iota from the apostles until Vatican II? Looking at this from neutral territory, it is a big turn off. There isn’t one form better than another. For priest to do EF Masses, there has to be a demand for it. Except for small groups of people interested in it, the demand is not there no matter how many that come on Catholic forums wishing for it. A busy priest isn’t going to take one of the regular Masses that may serve 800 people to an EF Mass to satisfy 50. Likewise the other problem is the attitude of it’s proponents. Why would I want to drive 45 minutes out of my way to become puffed up because I attend an EF Mass.

:thumbsup:What is so funny about this whole situation is that most of us who grew up before VII are NOT the ones who are desperate for the EF! I think it smacks of the old addage, “the grass is always greener…”.

 

[robwar]

Hmmm. I think if this were true, more bishops would not only allow priests to say more than 2 Masses per day, but actually ask them to. Very few people under 30 are attending Mass these days. If anything the demand is to have more priests tend to the hispanic communities, and that’s very slow in coming, at least in the U.S.

The parish I am at has one priest. If he is out do to illness, it is a scramble to cover. This is a widespread problem, priest shortage. If there are not enough priests to cover the Masses already established whether they are English or Spanish, then what is left to do EF Masses for the small bunch that want it. Plus, have the proper vestments etc and so on plus the proper training in altar servers etc and so on. You have to have a priest that is willing to put in the time (and last l checked priests are very busy) to learn the rubrics, buy the clothes etc and so on to do the EF Latin Mass for the handful that want just that.

 

[robwar]

:thumbsup:What is so funny about this whole situation is that most of us who grew up before VII are NOT the ones who are desperate for the EF! I think it smacks of the old addage, “the grass is always greener…”.

My husband grew up with EF Mass and can still remember it. He wants nothing to do with it. I am always open but it would be too big of a drive to get to one. He didn’t like the priest with the back to the congregation. But making ridiculous statements about history needs to be addressed here.

 

[ringil]

It is my opinion (worth next to nothing considering the subject matter) that a seminarian who feels called to learn the EF should be able to do so.

This is what Benedict wanted. To my knowledge he never advocated that all seminarians learn the EF.

Hopefully seminaries do have the resources to train their students.

Both forms of the Mass are valid, full, and beautiful celebrations of God’s relationship with His children.

 

[Brendan]

But since 2007, Seminaries have been required to instruct their seminarians in the celebration of the OF Mass in Latin.

Sacramentum Caritas

I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant

In addition, our local seminary, Sacred Heart Major Seminary, has hosted the Canons of St. John Cantius to teach the seminarians how to celebrate the EF Mass as well.

 

[PJM]

=Brendan;11846907]But since 2007, Seminaries have been required to instruct their seminarians in the celebration of the OF Mass in Latin.

Sacramentum Caritas

In addition, our local seminary, Sacred Heart Major Seminary, has hosted the Canons of St. John Cantius to teach the seminarians how to celebrate the EF Mass as well.

I’m going from memory here;

Either JP II or Benedict reinstated a mandatory understanding of Lain for Seminarians. I suspect [but am not certain] that they are also taught to say the Latin Mass.

I think it was Benedict that issued the directive that Priest NO LONGER have to have permission from their Ordinary [Bishop] to say the Mass in Latin.

I miss it too!

God Bless you,
patrick [PJM]

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

I’m going from memory here;

Either JP II or Benedict reinstated a mandatory understanding of Lain for Seminarians. I suspect [but am not certain] that they are also taught to say the Latin Mass.

I think it was Benedict that issued the directive that Priest NO LONGER have to have permission from their Ordinary [Bishop] to say the Mass in Latin.

I miss it too!

God Bless you,
patrick [PJM]

It would make sense to make Latin mandatory for seminarians in the Latin Rite. I never understood why someone would want to be a priest in the Latin Rite but not want to learn Latin.

 

[Brendan]

I’m going from memory here;

Either JP II or Benedict reinstated a mandatory understanding of Lain for Seminarians. I suspect [but am not certain] that they are also taught to say the Latin Mass.

+Benedict did, in Sacramentum Caritas. (see my quote above)

I think it was Benedict that issued the directive that Priest NO LONGER have to have permission from their Ordinary [Bishop] to say the Mass in Latin.

I miss it too!

God Bless you,
patrick [PJM]

A priest never needs permission to say the OF Mass in Latin, as that is the normative language for the Roman Missal. Technically, a priest would need the approval of the local bishops conference to say the Mass in English, or any other language.

+Benedict did give permission for priests, under certain circumstances, to say the EF Mass. Since the priest receives permission from Rome when that criteria is met, there is no need to seek further permission from anyone else. Nor could anyone overrule Rome once that permission was given.

 

[ProVobis]

It would make sense to make Latin mandatory for seminarians in the Latin Rite. I never understood why someone would want to be a priest in the Latin Rite but not want to learn Latin.

I agree. It never made sense that Catholic schools and educators drop the Latin requirement after Veterum Sapientia and Vatican II’s directives that Catholics be able to sing or recite their (ordinary) parts in Latin. Cardinal Arinze mentioned that had Catholics had the Mass in Latin, inter alia, there would have been less demand for the older Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

The parish I am at has one priest. If he is out do to illness, it is a scramble to cover. This is a widespread problem, priest shortage. If there are not enough priests to cover the Masses already established whether they are English or Spanish, then what is left to do EF Masses for the small bunch that want it.

The average age of a priest now in the U.S. is what, 63 or so? Doesn’t sound to me like the Mass since 1964 or thereabouts is drawing many to the priesthood per the demand as you see it.

 

[bben15]

The average age of a priest now in the U.S. is what, 63 or so? Doesn’t sound to me like the Mass since 1964 or thereabouts is drawing many to the priesthood per the demand as you see it.

The FSSP and the ICKSP are having abundant vocations right now. The diocesan priesthood is just lacking vocations.

The SSPX is having an abundance of vocations, and they are planning on building another seminary in the U.S. to accommodate, but they are not in good standing, so I don’t know if God actually calls anyone to that group.

 

[bardegaulois]

Refer to boldface (mine) above: How about because of demand? If a sizeable group of people want the OF Mass, they can surely ask for it and since it’s the “ordinary form,” they should have a right to it, correct?

I would agree. However, a priest who commonly says the EF would likely say the OF completely by the book, in Latin, with plainchant, ad orientem, and with all due reverence. The difference between the two would not be apparent to an untrained layman.

So, why would one request an OF from a generally EF priest? The odd presumption that the OF is always in the vernacular, with syrupy praise-and-worship songs and an army of extraordinary ministers? The faithful have the right to request either form, but a priest has the duty to celebrate the Mass appropriately, becomingly, and reverently.

That said, I have attended Latin OFs celebrated by priests with a strong preference for the EF, and found them almost as far removed from the general OF practice nowadays as the EF. Thus, regardless of which form is to be said, for the sake of better and increasing awe and decorum in our liturgy, I wholeheartedly hope that the EF will become more generally taught in our seminaries.

God bless.

 

[Cat]

I would agree. However, a priest who commonly says the EF would likely say the OF completely by the book, in Latin, with plainchant, ad orientem, and with all due reverence. The difference between the two would not be apparent to an untrained layman.

So, why would one request an OF from a generally EF priest? The odd presumption that the OF is always in the vernacular, with syrupy praise-and-worship songs and an army of extraordinary ministers? The faithful have the right to request either form, but a priest has the duty to celebrate the Mass appropriately, becomingly, and reverently.

That said, I have attended Latin OFs celebrated by priests with a strong preference for the EF, and found them almost as far removed from the general OF practice nowadays as the EF. Thus, regardless of which form is to be said, for the sake of better and increasing awe and decorum in our liturgy, I wholeheartedly hope that the EF will become more generally taught in our seminaries.

God bless.

You certainly have a right to dislike the contemporary music often used in the OF Mass, but I ask with respect that you please not use hyperbolic pejorative terms like “syrupy praise and worship songs,” and “an army of extraordinary ministers.”

Many of us love the contemporary hymns and find that they help us to concentrate on Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. And the priests are the ones who have the authority to decide on the use and number of EMsHC, and we should submit with criticism to their decisions in this matter.

Also, it is not “odd” for the faithful to expect that the OF Mass be delivered in the vernacular. It is the norm in many parishes. I think many Catholics are aware that the OF Mass can be given in Latin, but they have gotten used to hearing it in their heart language. The Church does not forbid or discourage the use of the vernacular, and it is not “odd” to expect the OF Mass in the vernacular.

And I agree with you that not too many Catholics in the U.S. would request an OF Mass from a priest who normally says the EF Mass. There are usually priests available who are willing to say the OF Mass.

 

[ProVobis]

And the priests are the ones who have the authority to decide …

I’m not quite sure about that. Why is it that people start writing or sending emails to their bishops whenever the priest decides to say the OF Mass ad orientem, or replace a vernacular hymn with a Latin one, etc.? One priest I know simply told his congregation, “What’s the point?” and he replaced the OF with the EF. No more complaints to the bishop.

 

[Cat]

I’m not quite sure about that. Why is it that people start writing or sending emails to their bishops whenever the priest decides to say the OF Mass ad orientem, or replace a vernacular hymn with a Latin one, etc.? One priest I know simply told his congregation, “What’s the point?” and he replaced the OF with the EF. No more complaints to the bishop.

I’m sorry that happens where you live.

I think that I am very blessed to live in a city/diocese where the Catholics don’t act like that. I have never heard any complaints from any Catholics about any of the hymns that are selected in any of the parishes where I play piano.

In our large parish, we don’t do Latin hymns in the Mass, but we do a regular Benediction where all the hymns are done in Latin. I can understand why the Latin hymns are not used; there is abysmal music education in the public schools, and no Latin is taught, and so the singing of Latin hymns would possibly create a “division” between those people who know Latin (Catholic and private-schools -educated) and those who don’t (public school- educated).

Perhaps we don’t hear a lot of complaints is because there is a Latin Mass parish in my city, and people who long for this form do not have to attend the OF.

 

[bardegaulois]

You certainly have a right to dislike the contemporary music often used in the OF Mass, but I ask with respect that you please not use hyperbolic pejorative terms like “syrupy praise and worship songs,” and “an army of extraordinary ministers.”

Many of us love the contemporary hymns and find that they help us to concentrate on Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. And the priests are the ones who have the authority to decide on the use and number of EMsHC, and we should submit with criticism to their decisions in this matter.

Also, it is not “odd” for the faithful to expect that the OF Mass be delivered in the vernacular. It is the norm in many parishes. I think many Catholics are aware that the OF Mass can be given in Latin, but they have gotten used to hearing it in their heart language. The Church does not forbid or discourage the use of the vernacular, and it is not “odd” to expect the OF Mass in the vernacular.

And I agree with you that not too many Catholics in the U.S. would request an OF Mass from a priest who normally says the EF Mass. There are usually priests available who are willing to say the OF Mass.

1. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
2. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.

This is from Sacrosanctum Consilium. There’s a big difference between the first paragraph’s “is to be” (a directive) and the second paragraph’s “may be” (a permission). The Council gave the vernacularists an inch, with which I’d have had no problem, but instead they took a mile. Now the directive is ignored, as is the statement elsewhere that Gregorian chant should always have pride of place. Yes, they’re talking about the NO. So where’s the chant? Where’s the Mass the Council Fathers intended?

But arguments like these have had their day. Since Summorum Pontificorum, the lines are a lot cleaner. The liturgical types have stopped the fighting in their NO parishes and rallied around the Extraordinary Form. The number of priests singing the EF and Masses celebrated according to the EF have exploded. This exodus has de facto given the OF permission to be what it had developed, with the cranker traditional types taking a hike to something much more akin to what they’re looking for. in the EF.

I can’t help but think, though, that we’d not have such a polarization in the Church had the letter, not the vacuous “spirit” of the Council been observed.