Are all other worlds deprived of God?

[StAnastasia]

1. St Thomas was not infallible!
2. The blessed have compassion for the damned.
3. They do not rejoice because the damned are suffering but because they love God and know God loves them.
4. They accept the suffering of the damned even though they love them because they know the damned reject God and all those who love God.
5. Their joy is not lessened because they know **everyone is obtaining what they choose.
   **6. They also know they could not co-exist in harmony with those who reject God.
6. The damned are prepared to pay the price of being totally independent.
7. God allows the damned to reject Him because our freedom is more valuable than anything else and without freedom we are incapable of love.
8. Even though the damned reject God He loves them because they are His children and His perfect love is absolute and unconditional.
9. God permits evil and suffering because all love entails sacrifice.
   NB These are my views and I don’t claim to be infallible!

Tony, I’m not a fan of eternal punishment, and I do understand why a lot of young people today are quite turned off Christianity by punitive and damnatory rhetoric. I would be too if I had ever paid much attention to hell and damnation, rather than to God’s salvific love.

The problem remains how a parent can be perfectly happy in heaven while knowing that her little one is boiling in oil (or whatever imaginative metaphor you prefer). I see no coherent argument for how a parent could be perfectly and eternally happy unless the memory of her now tortured little child is completely expunged.

In any case, it’s a moot point as far as I’m concerned. I would rather spend eternity in the imagined “lake of fire” than five minutes in the presence of a God who would create a hideous system in which (in St. Thomas words) "The saints rejoice in the accomplishment of God’s justice, and to this extent it can be said that they joy in the pains of the damned. "

StAnastasia

 

[StAnastasia]

LittleSoldier;8757432]How did I twist your words? What is the false implication? Sorry, but I’m rather at a loss here. It appeared to me that it was exactly what you told me.We are also told to love and to forgive.

I said: “My point is simply that as long as there is one parent who (1) has feelings for her child, and (2) has memories of her child, and (3) knows that her child is suffering eternal torment in hell, complete and perfect happiness does not in heaven.”

You twisted that by saying “I think what you’re doing is trying to fit God and His heaven into your conceptions as a human being instead of trying to fit your conceptions to God and His heaven. He doesn’t work like we do. Time is not the same - we know He is on eternal time while we are on chronological time.”

Not only did you never address my point, but you twisted what I said to make it fit your own fancy. That’s not discussing; it’s just plain dishonest.

If you find my statement a mystery then I feel even sadder and pity you and your children even more.

I’m not in the slightest bit interested in your patronizing pity.

 

[inocente]

I’m not a fan of eternal punishment, and I do understand why a lot of young people today are quite turned off Christianity by punitive and damnatory rhetoric. I would be too if I had ever paid much attention to hell and damnation, rather than to God’s salvific love.

Here’s part of a booklet (rtf) for children apparently distributed by the Church in Ireland and England in the 1850’s. Imagine the nightmares this produced.

*We know how far it is to the middle of the earth. It is just four thousand miles. So if hell is in the middle of the earth, it is four thousand miles to the horrible prison of hell.

…] But listen now – listen to the tremendous, the horrible uproar of millions and millions and millions of tormented creatures mad with the fury of hell. Oh, the screams of fear, the groanings of horror, the yells of rage, the cries of pain, the shouts of agony, the shrieks of despair of millions on millions.

…] There is in hell a sound like that of many waters. It is as if all the rivers and oceans of the world were pouring themselves with a great splash down on the floor of hell. Is it then really the sound of waters? It is. Are the rivers and oceans of the earth pouring themselves into hell? No. What is it then? It is the sound of oceans of tears running from the countless millions of eyes. They cry night and day. They cry forever and ever.

…] Little child, it is better to cry one tear of repentance now than to cry millions of tears in hell.

…] Little child, if you go to hell there will be a devil at your side to strike you. He will go on striking you every minute for ever and ever, without ever stopping. The first stroke will make your body as bad as the body of Job, covered from head to foot with sores and ulcers. The second stroke will make your body twice as bad as the body of Job. The third stroke will make your body with three times as bad as the body of Job. The fourth stroke will make your body four times as bad as the body of Job. How then will your body be after the devil has been striking it every moment for a hundred million of years without stopping?

…] Look into this little prison. In the middle of it there is a boy, a young man. He is silent; despair is on him. He stands straight up. His eyes are burning like two burning coals. Two long flames come out of his ears. His breathing is difficult. Sometimes he opens his mouth and breath of blazing fire rolls out of it. But listen! There is a sound just like that of a kettle boiling. Is it really a kettle which is boiling? No; then what is it? Hear what it is. The blood is boiling in the scalded veins of that boy. The brain is boiling and bubbling in his head. The marrow is boiling in his bones! Ask him, put the question to him, why is he thus tormented? His answer is, that when he was alive, his blood boiled to do very wicked things, and he did them, and it was for that he went to dancing-houses, public-houses, and theatres.*

Stay out of those theaters!

 

[grannymh]

Here’s part of a booklet (rtf) for children apparently distributed by the Church in Ireland and England in the 1850’s. Imagine the nightmares this produced.

We know how far it is to the middle of the earth. It is just four thousand miles. So if hell is in the middle of the earth, it is four thousand miles to the horrible prison of hell.

…] But listen now – listen to the tremendous, the horrible uproar of millions and millions and millions of tormented creatures mad with the fury of hell. Oh, the screams of fear, the groanings of horror, the yells of rage, the cries of pain, the shouts of agony, the shrieks of despair of millions on millions.

*…] There is in hell a sound like that of many waters. It is as if all the rivers and oceans of the world were pouring themselves with a great splash down on the floor of hell. Is it then really the sound of waters? It is. Are the rivers and oceans of the earth pouring themselves into hell? No. What is it then? It is the sound of oceans of tears running from the countless millions of eyes. They cry night and day. They cry forever and ever. *

…] Little child, it is better to cry one tear of repentance now than to cry millions of tears in hell.

…] Little child, if you go to hell there will be a devil at your side to strike you. He will go on striking you every minute for ever and ever, without ever stopping. The first stroke will make your body as bad as the body of Job, covered from head to foot with sores and ulcers. The second stroke will make your body twice as bad as the body of Job. The third stroke will make your body with three times as bad as the body of Job. The fourth stroke will make your body four times as bad as the body of Job. How then will your body be after the devil has been striking it every moment for a hundred million of years without stopping?

…] Look into this little prison. In the middle of it there is a boy, a young man. He is silent; despair is on him. He stands straight up. His eyes are burning like two burning coals. Two long flames come out of his ears. His breathing is difficult. Sometimes he opens his mouth and breath of blazing fire rolls out of it. But listen! There is a sound just like that of a kettle boiling. Is it really a kettle which is boiling? No; then what is it? Hear what it is. The blood is boiling in the scalded veins of that boy. The brain is boiling and bubbling in his head. The marrow is boiling in his bones! Ask him, put the question to him, why is he thus tormented? His answer is, that when he was alive, his blood boiled to do very wicked things, and he did them, and it was for that he went to dancing-houses, public-houses, and theatres.

Stay out of those theaters!

I received a kind of computer warning about your link. However, I saw the author’s name. It was not Jesus Christ.

Seriously, no one denies that there are persons who do evil in the Catholic Church.
My Irish Mother would say: “Even the worst of us can be a good example.”
The joy of Catholicism is that it gives every kind of person the opportunity to be with God in eternal love. The difficulty of Catholicism is that an individual has to look past some of the sheep in order to find the Good Shepherd.

 

[tonyrey]

Tony, I’m not a fan of eternal punishment, and I do understand why a lot of young people today are quite turned off Christianity by punitive and damnatory rhetoric. I would be too if I had ever paid much attention to hell and damnation, rather than to God’s salvific love.

The problem remains how a parent can be perfectly happy in heaven while knowing that her little one is boiling in oil (or whatever imaginative metaphor you prefer). I see no coherent argument for how a parent could be perfectly and eternally happy unless the memory of her now tortured little child is completely expunged.

In any case, it’s a moot point as far as I’m concerned. I would rather spend eternity in the imagined “lake of fire” than five minutes in the presence of a God who would create a hideous system in which (in St. Thomas words) "The saints rejoice in the accomplishment of God’s justice, and to this extent it can be said that they joy in the pains of the damned. "

1. If eternal punishment didn’t exist the universe would be dominated by immense injustice
2. Those who cause an incalculable amount of unnecessary suffering would escape scotfree
3. Injustice would reign supreme
4. God’s infinite love is revealed in the fact that we all obtain precisely what we deserve, neither more nor less
5. God’s infinite justice and mercy are sublimely blended in the fact that we are all forgiven to the precise extent that we forgive others
6. In heaven all parents are serene because **they know that if their children have rejected them forever **they have done absolutely nothing to deserve such rejection
7. **Their happiness is not diminished by the reality of evil because they know evil is the inevitable price of our power to choose our own destiny
   **
   NB These are my views and I don’t claim to be infallible!

 

[tonyrey]

Here’s part of a booklet (rtf) for children apparently distributed by the Church in Ireland and England in the 1850’s. Imagine the nightmares this produced.

*We know how far it is to the middle of the earth. It is just four thousand miles. So if hell is in the middle of the earth, it is four thousand miles to the horrible prison of hell.

…] But listen now – listen to the tremendous, the horrible uproar of millions and millions and millions of tormented creatures mad with the fury of hell. Oh, the screams of fear, the groanings of horror, the yells of rage, the cries of pain, the shouts of agony, the shrieks of despair of millions on millions.

…] There is in hell a sound like that of many waters. It is as if all the rivers and oceans of the world were pouring themselves with a great splash down on the floor of hell. Is it then really the sound of waters? It is. Are the rivers and oceans of the earth pouring themselves into hell? No. What is it then? It is the sound of oceans of tears running from the countless millions of eyes. They cry night and day. They cry forever and ever.

…] Little child, it is better to cry one tear of repentance now than to cry millions of tears in hell.

…] Little child, if you go to hell there will be a devil at your side to strike you. He will go on striking you every minute for ever and ever, without ever stopping. The first stroke will make your body as bad as the body of Job, covered from head to foot with sores and ulcers. The second stroke will make your body twice as bad as the body of Job. The third stroke will make your body with three times as bad as the body of Job. The fourth stroke will make your body four times as bad as the body of Job. How then will your body be after the devil has been striking it every moment for a hundred million of years without stopping?

…] Look into this little prison. In the middle of it there is a boy, a young man. He is silent; despair is on him. He stands straight up. His eyes are burning like two burning coals. Two long flames come out of his ears. His breathing is difficult. Sometimes he opens his mouth and breath of blazing fire rolls out of it. But listen! There is a sound just like that of a kettle boiling. Is it really a kettle which is boiling? No; then what is it? Hear what it is. The blood is boiling in the scalded veins of that boy. The brain is boiling and bubbling in his head. The marrow is boiling in his bones! Ask him, put the question to him, why is he thus tormented? His answer is, that when he was alive, his blood boiled to do very wicked things, and he did them, and it was for that he went to dancing-houses, public-houses, and theatres.*

Stay out of those theaters!

The fiendish delight some individuals take in imagining the horrors of hell** for others **reveals more about themselves than the nature of reality…

 

[tonyrey]

1. The blessed do not rejoice because the damned are suffering but because they love God and know God loves them.

Clarification:

1. The blessed do not rejoice because the damned are suffering but because they love God and they know** God loves** everyone - including the damned

 

[inocente]

I received a kind of computer warning about your link. However, I saw the author’s name. It was not Jesus Christ.

That’s just asking if you want to open or save it.

*Seriously, no one denies that there are persons who do evil in the Catholic Church.
My Irish Mother would say: “Even the worst of us can be a good example.”
*

Sure, none of us are perfect, we all sin.

The author takes the traditional hell to its logical conclusion, and for me at least thereby proves it cannot possibly exist. It is just too Gothic, too inane, too remote from a God of love. No purpose is served in the idea of eternal torture other than frightening little children into being seen and not heard.

 

[inocente]

The fiendish delight some individuals take in imagining the horrors of hell** for others **reveals more about themselves than the nature of reality…

Agreed, but it also shows how times have changed, especially given the blurb at the start:

“I have carefully read over this Little Volume for Children and have found nothing whatsoever in it contrary to the doctrine of Holy Faith; but, on the contrary, a great deal to charm, instruct and edify our youthful classes, for whose benefit it has been written. William Meagher, Vicar General, Dublin, December 14, 1855.”

 

[tonyrey]

Agreed, but it also shows how times have changed, especially given the blurb at the start:

“I have carefully read over this Little Volume for Children and have found nothing whatsoever in it contrary to the doctrine of Holy Faith; but, on the contrary, a great deal to charm, instruct and edify our youthful classes, for whose benefit it has been written. William Meagher, Vicar General, Dublin, December 14, 1855.”

The defects and limitations of individual Catholics have no bearing on the truth of Catholicism…

 

[inocente]

The defects and limitations of individual Catholics have no bearing on the truth of Catholicism…

Correct, and it did no harm to say it even though no one was arguing otherwise.

 

[tonyrey]

Correct, and it did no harm to say it even though no one was arguing otherwise.

We seem to have strayed from the topic…

Do you believe all other worlds are deprived of God?

 

[inocente]

We seem to have strayed from the topic…

Do you believe all other worlds are deprived of God?

No, the visible universe contains billions of galaxies each with billions of stars, and it would seem just a touch polytheistic to say each of them has a separate tribal god.

So for sure there is one God. But if there are other intelligent species out there, which seems reasonable given the big numbers, they are probably each unique, completely alien to us and each other, so I think it gets too hypothetical to wonder about how they see God.

Though thinking about a God who is also worshiped by aliens does perhaps bring us back to finding new meaning in the different ways humans see God.

 

[tonyrey]

No, the visible universe contains billions of galaxies each with billions of stars, and it would seem just a touch polytheistic to say each of them has a separate tribal god.

So for sure there is one God. But if there are other intelligent species out there, which seems reasonable given the big numbers, they are probably each unique, completely alien to us and each other, so I think it gets too hypothetical to wonder about how they see God.

Though thinking about a God who is also worshiped by aliens does perhaps bring us back to finding new meaning in the different ways humans see God.

I believe the teaching of Jesus applies to all intelligent beings whatever their circumstances. IMO the truths of Christianity are absolute, eternal and universal.

 

[inocente]

I believe the teaching of Jesus applies to all intelligent beings whatever their circumstances. IMO the truths of Christianity are absolute, eternal and universal.

I’m not so sure. Take a species in which members are subsumed by a collective, where they specialize and cooperate with no notion of the individual (a more extreme version of the Selenites in H G Wells’ First Men in the Moon). In such a society sin would also be collective, and without a concept of the person there could be no personal Savior, and very different ideas to ours about the soul, death and so on.

 

[grannymh]

That’s just asking if you want to open or save it.

Thanks. Somehow it looked different.

The author takes the traditional hell to its logical conclusion, and for me at least thereby proves it cannot possibly exist. It is just too Gothic, too inane, too remote from a God of love. No purpose is served in the idea of eternal torture other than frightening little children into being seen and not heard.

As a very young child, I read Dante’s Inferno in an illustrated, black and white drawings, edition which would top your book example. Don’t remember whose home it was in. Wasn’t ours. Talk about drawings taking the “traditional” hell to its logical conclusion.:bigyikes: Some of it is still in my memory bank.

Apparently, somewhere along the line, I learned about the God of Love and I was able to prove to myself that God did exist. I have learned not to underestimate the power of God’s love to touch and heal a personal spiritual soul. I do not underestimate the power of an individual to turn from God; neither do I underestimate the power of an individual to turn to God even when he or she has been treated with contempt as a child. God is not limited when it comes to understanding a broken child.

 

[StAnastasia]

Here’s part of a booklet for children apparently distributed by the Church in Ireland and England in the 1850’s. Imagine the nightmares this produced.
Stay out of those theaters!

I suppose even church officials can authorize the distribution of sadistic visions. I’ll be careful about going into theatres.

 

[StAnastasia]

1. In heaven all parents are serene because **they know that if their children have rejected them forever **they have done absolutely nothing to deserve such rejection
2. **Their happiness is not diminished by the reality of evil because they know evil is the inevitable price of our power to choose our own destiny
   **

Tony, the problem remains how a normal parent with normal feelings can be perfectly happy in heaven while knowing that her little one is boiling in oil (or whatever imaginative metaphor you prefer). I see no coherent argument for how a parent could be perfectly and eternally happy unless the memory of her now tortured little child is completely expunged. If you tell me that God would expunge the memory of that child, I might agree to your #17.

See you online on Monday (I’m off to the mountains).

StAnastasia

 

[reggieM]

I would rather spend eternity in the imagined “lake of fire” than five minutes in the presence of a God who would create a hideous system in which (in St. Thomas words) "The saints rejoice in the accomplishment of God’s justice, and to this extent it can be said that they joy in the pains of the damned. "

I’ve heard similar comments like “I would not want to go to heaven if my wife wasn’t there.”

In this case, you’re saying that you would prefer to spend an eternity in the lake of fire rather than be in the place described by St. Thomas.

So, if you did end up burning eternally, it would be your preferred option (in this case). Those are pains that you’d prefer to suffer. You’d be doing what you freely chose, knowing the consequences. But then you’d also expect everybody to feel sad for you at the same time?

It’s like the criminal who wants people to feel sorry for him because he got caught and punished.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I said: “My point is simply that as long as there is one parent who (1) has feelings for her child, and (2) has memories of her child, and (3) knows that her child is suffering eternal torment in hell, complete and perfect happiness does not in heaven.”

You twisted that by saying “I think what you’re doing is trying to fit God and His heaven into your conceptions as a human being instead of trying to fit your conceptions to God and His heaven. He doesn’t work like we do. Time is not the same - we know He is on eternal time while we are on chronological time.”

I did not twist anything. I gave you my opinion. That is what it means when someone says “I think what you’re doing.” Note the words “I THINK.” It does not mean that is what you are doing; it means that is simply what I think you are doing. And I stand by my words.

Not only did you never address my point, but you twisted what I said to make it fit your own fancy. That’s not discussing; it’s just plain dishonest.

No. I do not lie. Ever, under any circumstances. Refusing to respond to part of a person’s post is my right and what I wrote was honest and heartfelt.

;
I’m not in the slightest bit interested in your patronizing pity.

What you have written here only increases my feelings of sadness and my pity for you and your children (which is not patronizing in the least). Surely we are all deserving of others’ sadness and pity at times just as we are all deserving of others’ sharing in joy.