Are all other worlds deprived of God?

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Agreed, but it also shows how times have changed, especially given the blurb at the start:

“I have carefully read over this Little Volume for Children and have found nothing whatsoever in it contrary to the doctrine of Holy Faith; but, on the contrary, a great deal to charm, instruct and edify our youthful classes, for whose benefit it has been written. William Meagher, Vicar General, Dublin, December 14, 1855.” :eek: :eek: :eek: 😃
I would bet that if William Meagher were alive today he would have the exact same opinion, although he probably wouldn’t get away with having it printed in a published book (which probably wouldn’t be published today anyway). :whacky:
 
I’m not so sure. Take a species in which members are subsumed by a collective, where they specialize and cooperate with no notion of the individual (a more extreme version of the Selenites in H G Wells’ First Men in the Moon). In such a society sin would also be collective, and without a concept of the person there could be no personal Savior, and very different ideas to ours about the soul, death and so on.
If one assumes that some of the “other worlds” developed in similar ways as our own which includes all kinds of species, not necessarily all humans, your comments about the concept of the person are right on target. 😃

Tally this post as agreement.😉
 
Thanks. Somehow it looked different.

As a very young child, I read Dante’s Inferno in an illustrated, black and white drawings, edition which would top your book example. Don’t remember whose home it was in. Wasn’t ours. Talk about drawings taking the “traditional” hell to its logical conclusion.:bigyikes: Some of it is still in my memory bank.

Apparently, somewhere along the line, I learned about the God of Love and I was able to prove to myself that God did exist. I have learned not to underestimate the power of God’s love to touch and heal a personal spiritual soul. I do not underestimate the power of an individual to turn from God; neither do I underestimate the power of an individual to turn to God even when he or she has been treated with contempt as a child. God is not limited when it comes to understanding a broken child.
What a precocious child you must have been to be able to read such a book! I read it as an adult and the only part I remember is something about a withered old pope (or something like that and I’m not even sure I’m thinking of the correct book; in fact, now I’m sure I’m thinking of another book!). Maybe I should read it again.
 
My opinion about the answer to the question as it appears in the title of this thread is that it is impossible for there to be any other world or any part of the entire universe, including wherever it is into which the universe is expanding (if that theory is correct) that is deprived of God. There can be no other world deprived of God - not one tiny world in any universe. God is absolutely everywhere; that is His nature and as His nature is also Love His love extends to all other worlds - maybe not in the same way as on earth but certainly just as perfectly.

Is God present in hell? OK, that is a problem that I’ll have to think about.
 
I’ve heard similar comments like “I would not want to go to heaven if my wife wasn’t there.”

In this case, you’re saying that you would prefer to spend an eternity in the lake of fire rather than be in the place described by St. Thomas.

So, if you did end up burning eternally, it would be your preferred option (in this case). Those are pains that you’d prefer to suffer. You’d be doing what you freely chose, knowing the consequences. But then you’d also expect everybody to feel sad for you at the same time?

It’s like the criminal who wants people to feel sorry for him because he got caught and punished.
I actually told several people that I could not be happy in heaven without my beloved dog (admittedly she was my best friend for almost 18 years and was with me 24 hours a day after I became disabled). I still hope that she is waiting for me but my understanding of God’s love and heaven have matured somewhat.

You’re right - it would be the poster’s preferred option and we have the option of choosing.

As for St. Thomas: he is a saint but I don’t think there have been more than two people who have ever lived who have not said ridiculous, idiotic things at some time during their lives.
 
St Thomas Aquinas’s logic is impeccable, and fits with the rest of the systematic theology (if such an anachronism can be made to apply to the Summa Theologiae) he wrote, including the nature of God he demonstrated: it is my poor presentation of an out-of-context paraphrased quotation that made it seem not so. An earlier poster replied with the referenced sections and questions and objections in the Summa Theologiae; I recommend reading them (although, much of it may not make great sense, unless you understand a bit of the Angelic Doctor’s thought, and on top of that a good deal of Aristotelian philosophy, as his doctrinal conclusions derive from the nature of God that he demonstrated - which, for this purpose, can be stated as perfect justice, perfect mercy [the argument from Pure Act, “perfect everything”], and the reconciliation of those in human thought - and, no one person, nor all of humanity, can grasp the complete nature of God, but only parts of it, like the Jain/Hindu metaphor* of the three blind men and an elephant).

There’s no doubt that St Thomas is not infallible: as far as I can tell, he would have (or did) side with those who rejected the immaculate conception (against Duns Scotus, and their two respective schools, which became arch-nemeses; Scotism defending the Immaculate Conception, Thomism not), so at least one of his views was in error.

However, my point, drawing from St Thomas, was to answer the question, “how can a parent be happy if a child is in Hell?”; St Thomas answers this question well, even if he does not answer it perfectly, or in the only way: however, his answer is a very neat, elegant, logical and self-consistent (for both God’s nature, St Thomas’s thought, and humanity’s destiny) defense of the matter.

Hindu Version (Ramakrishna): said:
“A number of blind men came to an elephant. Somebody told them that it was an elephant. The blind men asked, ‘What is the elephant like?’ and they began to touch its body. One of them said: ‘It is like a pillar.’ This blind man had only touched its leg. Another man said, ‘The elephant is like a husking basket.’ This person had only touched its ears. Similarly, he who touched its trunk or its belly talked of it differently. In the same way, he who has seen the Lord in a particular way limits the Lord to that alone and thinks that He is nothing else.”

Jain Version (Anekantavada) said:
“A group of blind men heard that a strange animal, called an elephant, had been brought to the town, but none of them were aware of its shape and form. Out of curiosity, they said: “We must inspect and know it by touch, of which we are capable”. So, they sought it out, and when they found it they groped about it. In the case of the first person, whose hand landed on the trunk, said “This being is like a drain pipe”. For another one whose hand reached its ear, it seemed like a kind of fan. As for another person, whose hand was upon its leg, said, “I perceive the shape of the elephant to be like a pillar”. And in the case of the one who placed his hand upon its back said, “Indeed, this elephant is like a throne”. Now, each of these presented a true aspect when he related what he had gained from experiencing the elephant. None of them had strayed from the true description of the elephant. Yet they fell short of fathoming the true appearance of the elephant.”

Thus a man can focus on mercy to the exclusion of justice, or on justice to the exclusion of mercy.
 
I actually told several people that I could not be happy in heaven without my beloved dog (admittedly she was my best friend for almost 18 years and was with me 24 hours a day after I became disabled). I still hope that she is waiting for me but my understanding of God’s love and heaven have matured somewhat.
I like how you said that it’s a matter of maturing in the faith. I agree with that. It has taken me a long time and a lot of prayer, but I think I’m getting closer to a goal that I’ve had for a long time: “To desire what He desires”.

That can be very difficult, but it’s really the key to happiness.

To put this in more blunt terms, the Satanic statement of pride is something like this:

“I would prefer to burn in hell eternally, rather than to serve God on His own terms.”

So, how can we respond to that free choice by one of God’s creatures? I guess we could feel sorry for Satan, but that doesn’t really follow, the way I see it. He has declared that, no matter what, he’d rather suffer in Hell forever rather than to be humble before God. Why would it be wrong for us to be glad that he is able to fulfill his chosen path?

I’ve met several people, sadly, who say something similar. They would rather be in Hell than to have to worship and love God.

On a closing thought, there’s also the “virtue of vindication” (as St. Thomas teaches it). That’s a virtue that helps us seek justice and the restoration of goodness after an evil has taken place. That’s why it is a good thing to rejoice when a person “has paid his debt to society”, for example.

We might find people who are appalled at the idea that we should rejoice when someone has been caught and is required to pay back by punishment or restoration. But do the same people feel offended at the idea of “vindication of the poor and needy”?
 
Tony, the problem remains how a normal parent with normal feelings can be perfectly happy in heaven while knowing that her little one is boiling in oil (or whatever imaginative metaphor you prefer). I see no coherent argument for how a parent could be perfectly and eternally happy unless the memory of her now tortured little child is completely expunged. If you tell me that God would expunge the memory of that child, I might agree to your #17.
 
I actually told several people that I could not be happy in heaven without my beloved dog (admittedly she was my best friend for almost 18 years and was with me 24 hours a day after I became disabled). I still hope that she is waiting for me but my understanding of God’s love and heaven have matured somewhat.
There is no reason why your beloved dog shouldn’t be waiting for you. Animals are not biological machines - and God is not bound by human notions of heaven! 😉
 
There is no reason why your beloved dog shouldn’t be waiting for you. Animals are not biological machines - and God is not bound by human notions of heaven! 😉
Thank you. I know. 🙂 I’ve stopped believing everything I heard that “the Catholic Church teaches” without proper documentation. I’ve been told that animals have no souls, blip out of existence at the time of their deaths, and can’t possibly be in heaven. I’ve also been told that everyone who has committed suicide has been damned to hell, even if they were mentally ill. I’ve been told that the Church hates science but that the Pope lied to scientists about this (and to the faithful across the entire world) about how the Church feels about science because the Pope is a nice guy and wanted the scientists to feel good about themselves.

I know God loves me and I know He will make everything right and I believe firmly that He takes care of all He creates, even if I don’t understand His methods.
 
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tonyrey:
👍 "Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten in God’s sight."

😃 Yes! I have found that to be so comforting! Thank you for sharing it! 🙂
 
“Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten in God’s sight.”
It is impossible for us to grasp the full reality and signficance of God’s infinite love… That is why the saints went into ecstasy and were prepared to sacrifice everything for the One who has given us everything we are and possess. That is why Jesus was born, lived and died for us to give us some idea of what He is prepared to do and suffer in order to inspire us with love for Him, everyone and everything that exists. That is why words are ultimately inadequate and we are reduced to silent love and adoration. When we are dying the sight of a simple crucifix in our last agony is enough to give us joy, hope and consolation…
 
Have an exhilarating but not exhausting excursion! 🙂
Thanks, Tony! Exhilarating because I got to spend the weekend playing and working with my children. Tiring (but not exhausting) because we planted four more pine trees on our property, and some more redwoods. We now have 35 redwoods, seven giant sequoias, 1,000 fir trees, about 500 pines trees, and hundreds of oaks, ash, laurel, alder, cedar, spruce, and other trees. It’s a glorious testament to God’s creative plenitude!.

StAnastasia
 
Thanks, Tony! Exhilarating because I got to spend the weekend playing and working with my children. Tiring (but not exhausting) because we planted four more pine trees on our property, and some more redwoods. We now have 35 redwoods, seven giant sequoias, 1,000 fir trees, about 500 pines trees, and hundreds of oaks, ash, laurel, alder, cedar, spruce, and other trees. It’s a glorious testament to God’s creative plenitude!.

StAnastasia
Who said a paradise on earth is a myth?! 😉
 
It is impossible for us to grasp the full reality and signficance of God’s infinite love… That is why the saints went into ecstasy and were prepared to sacrifice everything for the One who has given us everything we are and possess. That is why Jesus was born, lived and died for us to give us some idea of what He is prepared to do and suffer in order to inspire us with love for Him, everyone and everything that exists. That is why words are ultimately inadequate and we are reduced to silent love and adoration. When we are dying the sight of a simple crucifix in our last agony is enough to give us joy, hope and consolation…
👍
 
Thanks, Tony! Exhilarating because I got to spend the weekend playing and working with my children. Tiring (but not exhausting) because we planted four more pine trees on our property, and some more redwoods. We now have 35 redwoods, seven giant sequoias, 1,000 fir trees, about 500 pines trees, and hundreds of oaks, ash, laurel, alder, cedar, spruce, and other trees. It’s a glorious testament to God’s creative plenitude!.

StAnastasia
I live on the central Oregon coast. The wind is very strong here at times and sometimes it brings gifts to my little bit of property. One year the gift was a large number of golden poppy seeds. I didn’t see the seeds but when spring came that year I had a huge number of beautiful golden poppies.

Another year I ended up with about ten pine seedlings. I had to pull most but I left one. It now towers above my house and I try to decorate it every Christmas. This year I couldn’t because it’s gotten so tall.

Nobody else in my neighborhood has reported receiving anything like golden poppy seeds or anything else, except for tons of leaves and other debris. They ask me how to grow golden poppies and I give them seed pods when they are ready. I’ve asked about the pine seedlings. Nobody else claimed to find pine seedlings like I did.

It’s weird.

And beautiful.
 
I live on the central Oregon coast. The wind is very strong here at times and sometimes it brings gifts to my little bit of property. One year the gift was a large number of golden poppy seeds. I didn’t see the seeds but when spring came that year I had a huge number of beautiful golden poppies. It’s weird. And beautiful.
Ah, Oregon! One of my favorite spots is the coast between Florence and Newport (we stay in the latter with close friends). Rain, fog, sunshine and beauty! A cousin raises sheep in nearby Philomath.
 
Ah, Oregon! One of my favorite spots is the coast between Florence and Newport (we stay in the latter with close friends). Rain, fog, sunshine and beauty! A cousin raises sheep in nearby Philomath.
If I see you on the 101 I’ll wave. 😃
 
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