Are all prophets sinless?

[Sabbath_Keeper]

“And we granted him Isaac and Jacob, and we guided both of them. Similarly, we guided Noah before that, and from his descendants (we guided) David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron. We thus reward the righteous.
Also, Zachariah, John, Jesus, and Elias; all were righteous.
And Ismail, Elisha, Jonah, and Lot; each of these we distinguished over all the people.
From among their ancestors, their descendants, and their siblings, we chose many, and we guided them in a straight path.” Quran 6:84-87

I would assume that you are claiming that the Quran is saying that the People listed above are ALL without sin because they in someway are considered prophets in Islam. So let’s look at each of them.

As I don’t have my bible with me I’m doing this from memory so if I leave someone out it’s because I don’t have ready reference, but what I have should be sufficient to prove my point.

Noah’s sin, drunkenness after the flood. Who’s to say there weren’t more.

Jacob, he was a thief, he covetted his brothers birthright and without mercy bought it with a pot of lintels. He then lied to his blind father, impersonating his brother, and stole his brother’s blessing. He then conivived with his wife’s to take the best of the flocks of his father-in-law in revenge for his father-in-laws dishonest dealing with him. Three sins, at the least.

Joseph, purhaps his only sin was that of pride due to the dreams he had concerning himself and his family. But then there was the deception he perpetrated against his brothers, a lie, concerning the theft of his goblet, and there was the false accusation of his brothers being spies so that he could have Benjiman brought to him.

David, adultery, causing the husband of the wife he had adultery with to be killed in battle by the order that was given by him to hide the sin he had committed that would surely make itself known because the woman became pregnant with his child. God himself called David a “bloody man” because of all the men that had died at his hand or had been killed by his orders. “Thou shalt not kill.”

Solomon, though the wisest man in all the world his sin was that he had too many wifes and he bowed down to their Idols when he shouldn’t have.

Moses, oh where do I start? Murder, disobedience to God. Usurpation of the authority of God. Had he not sinned he would have been allowed into the promised land but was only allowed to view it from afar.

Aaron. You’ve got to be kidding with this one. I remind you that before God wrote the Ten Commandments upon the stones he spoke them to all the people to which they readily agreed. It was only then that Moses went to get the genuine articles. And while he was gone Aaron succumbed to the will of the people and made them an Golden Calf out of their gold and caused them to bow down before it, leading them into a debauched revelry.

I think you get the idea. Except for Jesus, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. And the reason never sinned is because GOD IS WITHOUT SIN and JESUS WAS IMMANUEL and he HIS GOD THE SON.

 

[inJESUS]

Guys, what you mention about the prophets’ sins are simply considered by Muslims as “corruption of Jews”. Why would the Jews write such things about their prophets is beyond me but this is what Muslims’ belief is.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Guys, what you mention about the prophets’ sins are simply considered by Muslims as “corruption of Jews”. Why would the Jews write such things about their prophets is beyond me but this is what Muslims’ belief is.

Answer me this, it is my understanding that Islam accepts the first five books of the Bible, the Torah. Am I correct or is this a misconception?

 

[inJESUS]

Answer me this, it is my understanding that Islam accepts the first five books of the Bible, the Torah. Am I correct or is this a misconception?

in theory yes, but in practice that which contradicts the Quran is corrupt. Let’s take Moses’ teachings that if a man divorces his wife and the wife gets married, she cannot re-marry her first husband. Muhammad says exactly the opposite, if a woman wants to go back to her first husband (after a final divorce), she must have married another man before going back to her first husband. I assume that this part of the Torah is considered a corruption by Muslims.

So Muslims believe in a virtual Torah and Gospel ( that were once upon a time uncorrupt but God knows when they got corrupt) so when they tell you “we believe in previous scriptures” it means we believe in the idea that Allah sent previous scriptures once upon a time but in practice we do not believe in them because they are corrupt.

 

[inJESUS]

In other words, when it came to Jesus, scripture-wise humanity was given all it needed to find Jesus in the scriptures written for thousands of years by many prophets but when it came to Muhammad, Allah left no witness, thousands of years of prophecies were corrupted and suddenly Allah asks humans to believe in Muhammad because he says so despite everything; but if yuo ask Muslims when were the scriptures corrupt, after Moses or before, after Jesus or before, after Muhammad or before, you get conflicting answers but the problem is, Jesus did not say the OT is corrupt, and what you quote was known to Jesus and never did he say they are false testimonies about prophets but Muslims think they know better .

 

[Reuben_J]

Nice post, but don’t you think if you’re going to quote the Scriptures concerning the Ten Commandments that you should do so accurately and completely?

Thanks for pointing that out. I did give the Biblical references though. I mentioned the Ten Commandment as rough guide because I thought it would be easier for the poster I that I addressed, to glance through since he mentioned he was not familiar with the Ten Commandments.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

In other words, when it came to Jesus, scripture-wise humanity was given all it needed to find Jesus in the scriptures written for thousands of years by many prophets but when it came to Muhammad, Allah left no witness, thousands of years of prophecies were corrupted and suddenly Allah asks humans to believe in Muhammad because he says so despite everything; but if yuo ask Muslims when were the scriptures corrupt, after Moses or before, after Jesus or before, after Muhammad or before, you get conflicting answers but the problem is, Jesus did not say the OT is corrupt, and what you quote was known to Jesus and never did he say they are false testimonies about prophets but Muslims think they know better .

In otherwords, to “discourse” with a Muslim using what they claim to use is futile because they only use it when it suits them. Wow, whoever devised this one did a good job at hiding the truth or at least scrambling it up abit.

 

[inJESUS]

In otherwords, to “discourse” with a Muslim using what they claim to use is futile because they only use it when it suits them.

exactly.

Wow, whoever devised this one did a good job at hiding the truth or at least scrambling it up abit.

 

[famdigy]

Adam eating the fruit is a sin of disobedience. How could be disobedient to God is not a sin? The fact that he paid for the consequence of the act he committed shows that it is a sin.

I’m not arguing with anyone here about what is the right and wrong definition of sin, I’m only explaining the rationale behind our belief in infallability of prophets.

Ruben, this relationship between the sin and its punishment is not valid because of two reasons:
Firstly, Adam was destined to come to the earth anyway. Allãh had declared even before creating Adam that “I want to place a vicegerent on the earth.” So coming of Adam to the earth is not a punishment; whether or not he ate the forbidden fruit,
Adam would have come to the earth anyway. So that was not a punishment.

Secondly, if coming of Adam to the earth was a “punishment” of eating the forbidden fruit, then he should have been returned to the paradise after God “forgave” him. Forgiveness means “canceling the punishment”, therefore Adam should have been taken back to the paradise. This did not happen, which proves that Adam’s coming to the earth was not a “punishment” and eating was not a “sin”

who in Islam was entrusted to preserve the Quran?

this should be a seperate topic alltogether but the short answer to this question is;
the 12 infallible imams from the progeny of the prophet. The first one is Imam Ali (as) his nephew and son in law and the last one is Imam Mahdi (as)

God gave a command and Adam disobeyed. As clear as the sun.

The order given to Adam in Heaven is not the same as the order given to humans on earth, it is disobedience of the orders given on this earth that constitutes sin. That is because Heaven is not the place for test and trials. It’s the earth on which humans have been destined to go through test and trial by obeying the commands of God. The concept of sinning in human beings is connected to the worldly life.

In Adam’s case, he did not forget or make a mistake, rather, he left that which was better for something lesser.
As the example with the doctor who orders a person to a strict regiment of diet, rest, and medication. If that person deviates from the doctor’s orders, no one can say he commited a crime.

A doctor’s orders and a criminal Judge’s orders are not the same, one is advisory while the other is legislative. In Adam’s case the order not to eat from the fruit was of an advisory nature and not a legislative one. I hope that clarifies our position.

The question is why did God forbid Adam from the fruit in the first place. The reason becomes apparent when reading through Quran 2:35. Of the three translations most commonly used, Yusuf Ali gives the closest translation

“We said: O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression.”. The arabic word translated into harm or transgression here is “Dzulm/ ظُلْمٌ” which can have four meanings according to the Arabic dictionaries

1. to misplace something
2. to oppress or do wrong to oneself or others
3. to haste or hurry
4. to come to harm

Given our belief in Infallibility and our understanding that Adam was destined for earthly life even before his creation, the last two meanings would be most appropriate, a more accurate reading would be

“don’t eat from the tree, otherwise you will be one of those who make haste” Here, it would mean that they were eventually going to go to the earth but by eating from the forbidden tree they hastened their departure to a place where they will lose the comforts of the garden, and expose themselves to harm by facing the difficulties of the earthly life.

Again, it would have been better for Adam (as) not to have eaten from the tree as he would have stayed in the garden longer and his transition to the earth wouldn’t be hurried

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

I’m not arguing with anyone here about what is the right and wrong definition of sin, I’m only explaining the rationale behind our belief in infallability of prophets.

Ruben, this relationship between the sin and its punishment is not valid because of two reasons:
Firstly, Adam was destined to come to the earth anyway. Allãh had declared even before creating Adam that “I want to place a vicegerent on the earth.” So coming of Adam to the earth is not a punishment; whether or not he ate the forbidden fruit,
Adam would have come to the earth anyway. So that was not a punishment.

Are you wacked or what???

EDEN WAS ON EARTH. The garden was a place on earth. What book have you been reading??? Adam and Eve were already on Earth when God commanded them not to eat the fruit. It was a command of God, and order. Thou shalt not eat of the fruit of this tree!!! On the day the thou eatest it thou shalt surely die. And on the day that they ate they died spiritually and began to die physically. The were dying because they TRANSGRESSED GOD’S LAW, transgression of the law of God is SIN. GET IT.

Secondly, if coming of Adam to the earth was a “punishment” of eating the forbidden fruit, then he should have been returned to the paradise after God “forgave” him. Forgiveness means “canceling the punishment”, therefore Adam should have been taken back to the paradise. This did not happen, which proves that Adam’s coming to the earth was not a “punishment” and eating was not a “sin”

Adam AND Eve’s punishment was expulsion from the garden, it was also seperation from God. They were no longer allowed to see him face to face because SIN cannot stand the presence of God, it burns up and is consumed by his righteousness.

this should be a seperate topic alltogether but the short answer to this question is;
the 12 infallible imams from the progeny of the prophet. The first one is Imam Ali (as) his nephew and son in law and the last one is Imam Mahdi (as)

My friends here will disagree to some extent with me but, NO ONE IS INFALLIBLE EXEPT GOD!! period end of story.

The order given to Adam in Heaven is not the same as the order given to humans on earth, it is disobedience of the orders given on this earth that constitutes sin. That is because Heaven is not the place for test and trials. It’s the earth on which humans have been destined to go through test and trial by obeying the commands of God. The concept of sinning in human beings is connected to the worldly life.

In Adam’s case, he did not forget or make a mistake, rather, he left that which was better for something lesser.
As the example with the doctor who orders a person to a strict regiment of diet, rest, and medication. If that person deviates from the doctor’s orders, no one can say he commited a crime.

See the post above concerning the local of EDEN. And theft is a crime and so is disobedience to God, of which Adam and Eve are both guilty. And they passed their propensity to be disobedient to God to their children on down to this present generation. Shake the sand spiders out of your head and please, get a clue.

A doctor’s orders and a criminal Judge’s orders are not the same, one is advisory while the other is legislative. In Adam’s case the order not to eat from the fruit was of an advisory nature and not a legislative one. I hope that clarifies our position.

So now you have the authority to determine what God meant when he stated “Thou SHALT NOT.” Shalt translates to the same as WILL., so it would read "Thou WILL NOT. Your interpretation is “SHOULD NOT”. Wrong buckoo, that changes the meaning intirely and God does not Lie.

The question is why did God forbid Adam from the fruit in the first place. The reason becomes apparent when reading through Quran 2:35. Of the three translations most commonly used, Yusuf Ali gives the closest translation

“We said: O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression.”. The arabic word translated into harm or transgression here is “Dzulm/ ظُلْمٌ” which can have four meanings according to the Arabic dictionaries

1. to misplace something
2. to oppress or do wrong to oneself or others
3. to haste or hurry
4. to come to harm

Given our belief in Infallibility and our understanding that Adam was destined for earthly life even before his creation, the last two meanings would be most appropriate, a more accurate reading would be

“don’t eat from the tree, otherwise you will be one of those who make haste” Here, it would mean that they were eventually going to go to the earth but by eating from the forbidden tree they hastened their departure to a place where they will lose the comforts of the garden, and expose themselves to harm by facing the difficulties of the earthly life.

Again, it would have been better for Adam (as) not to have eaten from the tree as he would have stayed in the garden longer and his transition to the earth wouldn’t be hurried

You need a new understanding, why don’t you accept the writing that came before the Quran, as they were written closer to the time these events happened.

 

[Sam_777]

Ruben, this relationship between the sin and its punishment is not valid because of two reasons:
Firstly, Adam was destined to come to the earth anyway. Allãh had declared even before creating Adam that “I want to place a vicegerent on the earth.” So coming of Adam to the earth is not a punishment; whether or not he ate the forbidden fruit,
Adam would have come to the earth anyway. So that was not a punishment.

Secondly, if coming of Adam to the earth was a “punishment” of eating the forbidden fruit, then he should have been returned to the paradise after God “forgave” him. Forgiveness means “canceling the punishment”, therefore Adam should have been taken back to the paradise. This did not happen, which proves that Adam’s coming to the earth was not a “punishment” and eating was not a “sin”

Hi shiat friend famdigy,

What you are saying here contradicts Quran and Hadith per the following:

(Quran 7:19):

وَيَا آدَمُ اسْكُنْ أَنْتَ وَزَوْجُكَ الْجَنَّةَ فَكُلا مِنْ حَيْثُ شِئْتُمَا وَلا تَقْرَبَا هَذِهِ الشَّجَرَةَ فَتَكُونَا مِنَ الظَّالِمِينَ
​

“O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression.”

(Quran 7:27):

يَا بَنِي آدَمَ لا يَفْتِنَنَّكُمُ الشَّيْطَانُ كَمَا أَخْرَجَ أَبَوَيْكُمْ مِنَ الْجَنَّةِ يَنْـزِعُ عَنْهُمَا لِبَاسَهُمَا لِيُرِيَهُمَا سَوْآتِهِمَا إِنَّهُ يَرَاكُمْ هُوَ وَقَبِيلُهُ مِنْ حَيْثُ لا تَرَوْنَهُمْ إِنَّا جَعَلْنَا الشَّيَاطِينَ أَوْلِيَاءَ لِلَّذِينَ لا يُؤْمِنُونَ
​

“O ye Children of Adam! let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as he got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the Evil Ones friends (only) to those without Faith.”

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 621:
“Allah’s Apostle said, “Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. ‘You are Adam whose mistake expelled you from Paradise.’ Adam said to him, 'You are Moses whom Allah selected as His Messenger and as the one to whom He spoke directly; yet you blame me for a thing which had already been written in my fate before my creation?”’ Allah’s Apostle said twice, "So, Adam overpowered Moses.”

صحيح البخاري:
عن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏قال ‏ ‏حاج ‏ ‏موسى ‏ ‏آدم ‏ ‏فقال له أنت الذي أخرجت الناس من الجنة بذنبك وأشقيتهم قال قال ‏ ‏آدم ‏ ‏يا ‏ ‏موسى ‏ ‏أنت الذي ‏ ‏اصطفاك ‏ ‏الله برسالته وبكلامه أتلومني على أمر كتبه الله علي قبل أن يخلقني أو قدره علي قبل أن يخلقني قال رسول الله ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏فحج ‏ ‏آدم ‏ ‏موسى ‏
​

(E) (A)

 

[Reuben_J]

I’m not arguing with anyone here about what is the right and wrong definition of sin, I’m only explaining the rationale behind our belief in infallability of prophets.

Ruben, this relationship between the sin and its punishment is not valid because of two reasons:
Firstly, Adam was destined to come to the earth anyway. Allãh had declared even before creating Adam that “I want to place a vicegerent on the earth.” So coming of Adam to the earth is not a punishment; whether or not he ate the forbidden fruit,
Adam would have come to the earth anyway. So that was not a punishment.

Secondly, if coming of Adam to the earth was a “punishment” of eating the forbidden fruit, then he should have been returned to the paradise after God “forgave” him. Forgiveness means “canceling the punishment”, therefore Adam should have been taken back to the paradise. This did not happen, which proves that Adam’s coming to the earth was not a “punishment” and eating was not a “sin”

I note that you are explaining Islam’s rationale on this. Thanks for the insight.

I must say even in this case there is a difference on how we view God and God’s ‘history’. I am saying that for want of better word. Earth is the result of the fallen world; it was not like that before. The Garden of Eden as it was called was a place where God also dwelled together with the man (and woman). Adam’s stay there was conditional. He did not comply and thus being punished. It was a punishment because had he obeyed he would not be driven out. He was supposed to be the master of all other creations.

We can never know for sure whether he was forgiven or not because that’s God’s prerogative. But knowing the forgiveness of God and should he met all the requirements he would be returned to paradise (heaven) after his death.

Sin is disobedience to God. He is not some kind of a master or a human judge where we can mitigate and change the rule. His rule does not change and so is His nature. He does not redefine sin according to what’s happening no matter how mitigating the situation is. This is what we call the justice of God. It never changes as He never changes.

Adam’s transgression was the fore shadow of what we have to be aware of today – do not transgress his words; do not transgress what’s prohibited. Why? Because there was a covenant – when we obey and become His people we receive His blessing and He be our God. But to be His people we have to obey His commandments and His ways. The covenant does not change that’s why the definition of sin never changes. The justice is – He will always be our God no matter what we do because that’s the covenant; but when we transgress His laws we pay the consequence.

If you say Adam’s action of eating the fruit is not sin, then disobeying God makes no sense. This is not what it is to be.

 

[Reuben_J]

Obviously the issue been addressed simultaneously as I was submitting the post. Hope famdigy does not mind if it is redundant espcially considering the length of the reply.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

Salaam/ Peace

… Adam and Eve were already on Earth when God commanded them not to eat the fruit. .

Do both Jews & Christians believe Adam & Eve (pbut ) were not in heaven ? That’s interesting . I heard that they put blame on Eve (p) for coming down on earth from heaven . So , it’s not true what I heard ?

 

[Jay53]

Is there anything in the Old Testament that supports this Islamic belief that all prophets are sinless or did this belief originate with Muhammad and the Quran? (Please do not quote from the Quran as that does me no good seeing as how my theory is now that Muhammad added this to the Quran as a self-serving tactic to justify his behavior so that it would not be questioned.)

Thank you.

 

[R_not]

** In the name of Allah , the Most Gracious , Ever Merciful **

Salaam/ Peace

Do both Jews & Christians believe Adam & Eve (pbut ) were not in heaven ? That’s interesting . I heard that they put blame on Eve (p) for coming down on earth from heaven . So , it’s not true what I heard ?

Your koran doesn’t even have the correct version of the story of Adam and Eve. They were never in heaven to begin with - they were created on earth and in the Garden of Eden. I am sure they went to heaven after they died, but until then they were never in heaven.

Many people have problems with Eve because they think she is the cause of Adam’s downfall by eating the fruit from the Tree of Life. Instead of giving Adam credit for having his own brain and either chosing to use it or not - he ate from the fruit of the tree - all by his little self.

If you want to discuss the Bible - then read it. Stop trying to discuss Biblical peoples and events by reading the koran.

You, or any muslim, have yet to prove that the Bible was corrupted and until then it is based on a wrong premise.

 

[famdigy]

Are you wacked or what???

EDEN WAS ON EARTH. The garden was a place on earth. What book have you been reading???

No sir, you are being thick headed, According to the bible maybe that was the case but we believe the garden was in heaven not on earth. this is one more difference between our beliefs and the whole point of this thread “why muslims belief prophets are sinless” no matter how much you dislike it i’m talking about the muslim view here not the christian view, repeat once, repeat twice.

You need a new understanding, why don’t you accept the writing that came before the Quran, as they were written closer to the time these events happened.

do you really want me to go through this exercise again? didn’t Injesus explain it to you already, maybe you missed it as usual.

we don’t believe in the OT and NT we have today because it has been corrupted

 

[Jay53]

we don’t believe in the OT and NT we have today because it has been corrupted

Do you have any proof of this? I have asked before and received no response other than: ‘if it disagrees with the Quran then it is corrupt’ which is obviously no answer at all since the Quran came after the OT and NT and contradicts many things in them. Thank you.

 

[famdigy]

Hi shiat friend famdigy,

What you are saying here contradicts Quran and Hadith per the following:

Hi Sam, i’ve already addressed Quran 7:19 in post #69
the arabic word الظَّالِمِينَ from the root word DHLM has 4 possible meanings, look it up in the arabic dictionary al-munjad.

It just so happens the context it is most widely used is “opression” which is a sin.

(Quran 7:27):

يَا بَنِي آدَمَ لا يَفْتِنَنَّكُمُ الشَّيْطَانُ كَمَا أَخْرَجَ أَبَوَيْكُمْ مِنَ الْجَنَّةِ يَنْـزِعُ عَنْهُمَا لِبَاسَهُمَا لِيُرِيَهُمَا سَوْآتِهِمَا إِنَّهُ يَرَاكُمْ هُوَ وَقَبِيلُهُ مِنْ حَيْثُ لا تَرَوْنَهُمْ إِنَّا جَعَلْنَا الشَّيَاطِينَ أَوْلِيَاءَ لِلَّذِينَ لا يُؤْمِنُونَ
​

“O ye Children of Adam! let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as he got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame: for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them: We made the Evil Ones friends (only) to those without Faith.”

again, there is no contradiction here my friend. Indeed Satan was the catalyst that caused them to eat from the tree, there’s no question. However, leaving the garden in paradise was not the punishment for all the reasons I mentioned in post #69

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 621:
“Allah’s Apostle said, "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam. 'You are Adam whose mistake expelled you from Paradise.’ Adam said to him, 'You are Moses whom Allah selected as His Messenger and as the one to whom He spoke directly; yet you blame me for a thing which had already been written in my fate before my creation?”’ Allah’s Apostle said twice, “So, Adam overpowered Moses.”

I’m sorry friend, but as you know I don’t believe in Bukhari,
much like the jewish and christian scribes corrupted the bible, Bukhari, Muslim and the like corrupted the hadiths and the Quran’s meanings.

 

[famdigy]

Is there anything in the Old Testament that supports this Islamic belief that all prophets are sinless or did this belief originate with Muhammad and the Quran? (Please do not quote from the Quran as that does me no good seeing as how my theory is now that Muhammad added this to the Quran as a self-serving tactic to justify his behavior so that it would not be questioned.)

Thank you.

wether or not you believe it is a self serving addition. The argument of infallability and why all prophets must be infallible is a coherent, intellectually rational and compelling argument.