Are all prophets sinless?

[Jay53]

wether or not you believe it is a self serving addition. The argument of infallability and why all prophets must be infallible is a coherent, intellectually rational and compelling argument.

No it isn’t. It contradicts reality and evidence. There is evidence of the sins that prophets have committed. That their revelations should be infallible is not in question. The people themselves, (excluding Jesus, for whom there obviously is no evidence of sin because He was sinless) however, are sinners. We all are!

BTW, whether I believe what is a self-serving addition? The Quran? Whether prophets are sinless? Sorry, but I didn’t understand your statement.

 

[R_not]

wether or not you believe it is a self serving addition. The argument of infallability and why all prophets must be infallible is a coherent, intellectually rational and compelling argument.

Can you please answer his question?

Also can you prove the Bible was corrupted?

You keep going on but show little proof of anything except your self serving assertions.

this is the whole problem with islam - you guys cannot prove anything and then take these rewritten Bible stories and expect us to use them as if they were true.

they are not until you can prove the Bible was corrupted.

 

[famdigy]

Can you please answer his question?

Also can you prove the Bible was corrupted?
.

for starters, some of the major beliefs based in the bible are incoherent and don’t make sense, others are inconsistent and contradictory to one another

Take the trinity; for the past 2000 years Christians have been creatively explaining the trinity yet even christians themselves have a a difficult time understanding it, only to be told they just have to believe and take it on faith.

Another one is the original sin. The idea that someone else is made responsible for another person’s mistakes is immoral and unjust and in response the christian answer is that God’s justice is beyond our own or that God works in ways we do not understand In essence we can not understand but we have to believe it because the bible says so.

for a person who is not raised christian, these are not convincing arguments, evidence, or reality.

In our view it is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith with his own insight and understanding, and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept the word of another who knows, simply because he has said it.

 

[R_not]

R_not;4790774:

Can you please answer his question?

And the muslims putting the aura of goodness and holiness on vile acts and words of mohammed make sense to you?

mohammed’s redefining sin because he broke so many of the commandments?

As for the Trinity why do you even mention it concerning the Biblical stories of the Bible? It is not in the Bible - so you should not even have a problem with that.

As for the story of Adam and Even - the whole thing is rewritten on a premise that the Bible was corrupted - whether you believe in the sin of them being carried onwards in their descendents. As are stories of Moses, Abraham, Jesus, Mary, etc.

Prove the Bible was corrupted - it doesn’t matter that you believe in the Bible or not. The koran is based on the fact that the Bible is corrupted and there has been no proof shown to anyone other than ‘mohammed said, so it must be’ without even thinking that he was incapable of reading and writing and therefore didn’t even know the Bible because not only could he not read it, but he was a pagan and didn’t know the Bible.

In his attempt to try to link islam with the Judeo-Christian religions - mohammed made up the stories from stories that he heard. He couldn’t even remember them correctly, or he was told them incorrectly.

You give some interesting excuses for not wanting to prove the Bible was corrupted. They are still excuses and I am surprised that muslims don’t want proof of it being corrupted too since their koran is based on that premise.

 

[Jay53]

In our view it is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith with his own insight and understanding, and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept the word of another who knows, simply because he has said it.

I still don’t understand. Then who said all prophets are sinless and why would you believe it just because he said it - especially when there is evidence to the contrary? A Muslim should be able to use “his own insight and understanding” to evaluate the actions of a prophet and see that some of those actions violated the Ten Commandments given by God to Moses. If one says that ‘Allah said it in the Quran’ then Allah is contradicting his own words given in the Ten Commandments - making sins against the Ten Commandments suddenly acceptable for Muhammad (and then retroactively the other prophets) when up until then they were not acceptable.

 

[Jay53]

Bump

 

[WarriorAngel]

naaah, easy, these fall under the “corrupt” Bible and Muslims cannot take them seriously since they believe what Muhammad says, not what Jesus warns against 600 years before the birth of Muhammad bin Abdallah.

It prooves His Word true …that false prophets would rise up and show signs of wonder to fool even the choosen.

Well, Muhammad and Mr Smith both claimed to be prophets.

So far the ‘golden tablet’ and the info contained thereof regarding cities and towns [that never existed] cannot be found …not one trace of those supposed civilizations. The entire world was combed over.

As for Muhammad’s prophecies - they are way too general - leaving it open to interpretation.

Jesus was succint… **but even moreso are the visionaries whom receive warnings even through all ages **- have been prooven again and again that the messages they obtained came true - the signs given surrounding their messages and many witnesses all proove to be 100% true and genuine.

I wonder what the Muslims say about the apparitions in Egypt where millions of Muslims saw Our Lady over a Coptic Orthodox Christian Church.
The Virgin making an appearance for 2 years for their eyes as well as everyone elses…
Wanting PEACE and conversion to the Church.

Can 2 years and millions of witnesses of all religions be wrong? [And pictures?]

Where is the proof from Muhammad’s ‘prophecies’? ALL of his works stopped with him. Cold flat ended.

The purpose to prophecy is FOR THE GOOD OF MAN AND THE GLORY OF GOD.

If a ‘prophecy’ consists of something very general - it comes only from evil.
We know this to be true - or every fortune teller would be considered good. AS we were told even in the ancient times, that fortune tellers derive info from evil.

God only shows Himself in miracles of the physical kind that heals ppl and brings their soul to Him.

Muhammad made a few prophecies about chewing, blood and what not - and ppl think he was great.

Well, Ms Sylvia Browne predicts alot of things too - some come true - and she derives her info from evil and evil tools.

A seizure, as painful as a Muslim finds this to hear - is NOT from God. A seizure in fact is the antithesis of peace and love which comes from God.

A seizure is a frequent occurrence due to possession [if this is HOW he came to prophecies]
Otherwise - he may have had a simple health condition he could NOT control and SO he made up prophecies to make it seem he wasnt as demented as he felt. * because he claimed he saw and heard things.*

Muhammad had many seizures when he prophecied.
Maybe they didnt know then - and should by now - that demons cause seizures and that they are painful and not God sent.** AND or - they are simply a health related problem.**

Plus Muhammad also would sweat and convulse when he was in those seizures…also nothing from God.

Anytime a TRUE mystic or visionary has a message from God - they are in a trance like hypnotic state of absolute calm, love and peace and they feel absolutely NO pain. AGAIN their messages have come true - for the good of man and glory of God.

Compare that to the Muhammadian experiences. IF Muhammad lived today - he would have been medicated for schitzophrenia and seizures.

If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck - it is in fact a duck.

 

[inJESUS]

Compare that to the Muhammadian experiences. IF Muhammad lived today - he would have been medicated for schitzophrenia and seizures.

i believe that if he lived today, with all the sources and info available to track down his sources and historical blunders, not one person will take him seriously, no matter how much he shouted that God is one, for even demons know this but i know this is a very optimistic view since there will always be people who fall preys.

 

[Jay53]

Bump

Originally Posted by famdigy
In our view it is necessary for a Muslim to believe in the fundamentals of faith with his own insight and understanding, and he cannot follow anyone in this respect i.e. he cannot accept the word of another who knows, simply because he has said it.

I still don’t understand. Then who said all prophets are sinless and why would you believe it just because he said it - especially when there is evidence to the contrary? A Muslim should be able to use “his own insight and understanding” to evaluate the actions of a prophet and see that some of those actions violated the Ten Commandments given by God to Moses. If one says that ‘Allah said it in the Quran’ then Allah is contradicting his own words given in the Ten Commandments - making sins against the Ten Commandments suddenly acceptable for Muhammad (and then retroactively the other prophets) when up until then they were not acceptable.

 

[Jay53]

Ok. I found this which supports famdigy’s assertions in earlier posts, but does nothing to answer why/how Muhammad is able to break the Ten Commandments in violation of God’s Word. Perhaps Muslims don’t recognize the Ten Commandments?
I just don’t understand this concept of all prophets being sinless because it blatently contradicts the reality of their lives.

The infallibility of the Messenger (may peace and prayers of Allah be upon him) is a necessary condition in order to prove the truth of the message and to gain confidence on the divine call. And without this infallibility there will not be any difference between the messenger and any other reformer or wise man. And so there will not be any difference between the invincible and infallible inspiration and the human philosophies and achievements which may be right or wrong. Without infallibility the message become as the human utterances but with the infallibility the message becomes the utterances of Allah -glory be to him-who is giving his words to the infallible person (all Prophets & Messengers).So the infallibility of the teller proves the infallibility of the message, and it is also the condition that proves the wisdom of the one who chose the Messenger, sent and inspired him this message.

 

[January_00]

I’m not going to delve too deeply into this subject because the Quran says there will be those who choose to be uneducated, who choose to keep their hearts and ears closed to Gods words. So I could sit here for all my life debating with you guys and you would never understand because you choose not to in your hearts.

Anyways, I decided to post because I keep seeing Christians saying their Bible is 100% and has never been changed. For these people I suggest typing “Missing Bible Verses” In google and see what happens. I got 1000s of pages showing how the pope and others have just taken out entire passages from the Bible. Why would anyone want to do that? So, if a Pope changes the Bible it’s ok in Christianity?

Our Holy Quran has been recited by all muslims word for word since the day Muhammad had his first revelation. The words we read now are the same as they were 1000’s of years ago when Gabriel told them to Muhammad. We have small children, the age of 4 that can recite the entire Quran from front to back from memory…No word has been changed which is more than I can say for any other Religion in the world.

I really don’t care what Religion you follow, I believe that as Long as you believe in One God (And don’t believe Jesus was God) then you will go to Paradise.

 

[Jay53]

I’m not going to delve too deeply into this subject because the Quran says there will be those who choose to be uneducated, who choose to keep their hearts and ears closed to Gods words. So I could sit here for all my life debating with you guys and you would never understand because you choose not to in your hearts.

Anyways, I decided to post because I keep seeing Christians saying their Bible is 100% and has never been changed. For these people I suggest typing “Missing Bible Verses” In google and see what happens. I got 1000s of pages showing how the pope and others have just taken out entire passages from the Bible. Why would anyone want to do that? So, if a Pope changes the Bible it’s ok in Christianity?

Our Holy Quran has been recited by all muslims word for word since the day Muhammad had his first revelation. The words we read now are the same as they were 1000’s of years ago when Gabriel told them to Muhammad. We have small children, the age of 4 that can recite the entire Quran from front to back from memory…No word has been changed which is more than I can say for any other Religion in the world.

I really don’t care what Religion you follow, I believe that as Long as you believe in One God (And don’t believe Jesus was God) then you will go to Paradise.

With all due respect, what does this have to do with the notion that Islam seems to believe that all prophets are sinless when the reality of their lives shows otherwise? Not that anyone is “bashing” said prophets or thinks they are “bad” people, just acknowledging the reality that we are all sinners (obviously aside from Jesus who WAS sinless.)

 

[January_00]

With all due respect, what does this have to do with the notion that Islam seems to believe that all prophets are sinless when the reality of their lives shows otherwise? Not that anyone is “bashing” said prophets or thinks they are “bad” people, just acknowledging the reality that we are all sinners (obviously aside from Jesus who WAS sinless.)

Oh, I wasn’t aware we had to keep to the said topic. Did you write a response to every Christian who went off topic here?

I personally don’t believe ANY Prophet was Sinless. They were all men, and every man makes mistakes in life. The Problem with Islam is people follow the Hadiths which were written by men 400 years after Muhammads death. The Quran says Mohammad is a Man, with that logic then he did make mistakes. As does every other man/woman in the world.

 

[Jay53]

I personally don’t believe ANY Prophet was Sinless. They were all men, and every man makes mistakes in life. The Problem with Islam is people follow the Hadiths which were written by men 400 years after Muhammads death. The Quran says Mohammad is a Man, with that logic then he did make mistakes. As does every other man/woman in the world.

Thank you for your answer! This was what I was trying to find out. Although, you don’t seem to hold the same view as some other Muslim posters here.

Several Muslim posters here have put forth the assertion that Muhammad is the “perfect” example of how to live and that his life should be emulated in all instances. They also become upset when the sins of other prophets are brought to light as if we are criticizing or bashing them rather than just acknowledging reality. (Just for example, Abraham committing adultery with Hagar.) My point in starting this thread was to find out why they hold his belief and how they continue to hold it when it contradicts reality.

One poster, I believe said that prophets need to be infallible so that their word is believed to be from God. (or something similar). I would agree that the message transmitted from God would be infallible, but not the messenger himself.

 

[January_00]

Thank you for your answer! This was what I was trying to find out. Although, you don’t seem to hold the same view as some other Muslim posters here.

Several Muslim posters here have put forth the assertion that Muhammad is the “perfect” example of how to live and that his life should be emulated in all instances. They also become upset when the sins of other prophets are brought to light as if we are criticizing or bashing them rather than just acknowledging reality. (Just for example, Abraham committing adultery with Hagar.) My point in starting this thread was to find out why they hold his belief and how they continue to hold it when it contradicts reality.

One poster, I believe said that prophets need to be infallible so that their word is believed to be from God. (or something similar). I would agree that the message transmitted from God would be infallible, but not the messenger himself.

I have been debating Islam for some time and have found only one other person who follows it like I do. Most Muslims reject me because my Beliefs go against theirs. Which is really odd because I only follow what is written in the Quran!

The Muslims get the idea that the Prophet was sinless because the Quran says he was a good man and we should Pray like he did and listen to and follow what he says, so they think that means that God made him a perfect example to follow and everything he did was OK. BUT, there is a story that says that one of the Prophets wives gave him Honey to eat and he stayed too long with her, his other wives got jealous so he made eating Honey a Sin, God told him after that, this was wrong and it was not his place to say what was wrong and right, only God could do that.This only Proves that he made mistakes. If you tell this to Muslims they will ignore it.

I think what you have stated is 100% correct, that the word from God is Infalliable but the Prophet doesn’t have to be, He is a MAN! And every man makes mistakes!

The Quran speak of Jesus as one of the greatest Prophets, he will come back to the earth on Judgement day and try one last time to get everyone to follow him to God. I can’t find anywhere that Jesus had any sins. I personally think he didn’t because God speaks so highly of him, I think Jesus was a prime example to follow.

The Islam people follow today I can assure everyone is not the Islam God nor the Prophet Intended. It’s really sad actually, that they choose to follow what their fathers say instead of what is written in their Holy Book. The Quran says many different things compared to what they follow

 

[January_00]

I take offense to your statement because My mother was a Christian and died a Christian. I believe ALL PEOPLE that believe in God will Go to Heaven. If you believe JESUS was God then no, I don’t believe you will go to Heaven. God is God and Jesus was Jesus.

Let me EDIT: I was a little hasty in my reply! I believe that Jesus will come back on the Judgement Day and raise up all the souls from the dead and gather all of Gods followers and tell them that He is Not God But only a Prophet of God, that God will give everyone one last chance to follow HIM and only HIM!

Muslims tell me my Mother will burn in Hell because she was a Christian. I don’t believe this because the Quran says that ANYONE who believes in ONE GOD will enter Paradise!

 

[January_00]

Please read my edited answer. And PLEASE DO NOT tell me what my Mother Believed! She prayed to GOD not Jesus! She beleived Jesus was a Prophet and Jesus was the messenger of GOD!

WOW, Am shocked that someone is trying to tell me what my Mother believed!

 

[January_00]

I have tried many times to point this out to Muslims but they don’t listen to me!

The Quran states that on Judgement Day all the dead souls will be raised from the ground and all of the followers who are alive will be brought to Jesus, and he will tell them he never said he was the Son of God but only a messanger of God. I think That by raising the dead God is offering a last chance to everyone to believe in Him, I could be wrong thinking about it because it also says that you have to die as a believer in One God to enter Paradise…The Bible says that as well no?

 

[January_00]

True, Only God Knows. and it is wrong for us to specualate…I do pray in my heart that everyone who believed in God will go to Heaven though, whatever Religion. I think it will be a beautiful place and I hate to think of anyone not being there. We all make mistakes and I hope every single one of us are given a chance to fix them before we meet God on Judgement Day!

That quote from the Bible, was it from Jesus’s Mouth? Did he actually come and say I am the Son Of God? I keep getting verses of other people saying it. We can’t believe what others say, believe what Jesus says, he only ever says once that through him you can go to God, That means that if you follow what He says you can go to God. It doesn’t mean he is God nor is he the son Of God. There is no verse that Jesus said it. That should tell you something…
[/quote]

 

[Jay53]

I take offense to your statement because My mother was a Christian and died a Christian. I believe ALL PEOPLE that believe in God will Go to Heaven. If you believe JESUS was God then no, I don’t believe you will go to Heaven. God is God and Jesus was Jesus.

Let me EDIT: I was a little hasty in my reply! I believe that Jesus will come back on the Judgement Day and raise up all the souls from the dead and gather all of Gods followers and tell them that He is Not God But only a Prophet of God, that God will give everyone one last chance to follow HIM and only HIM!

Muslims tell me my Mother will burn in Hell because she was a Christian. I don’t believe this because the Quran says that ANYONE who believes in ONE GOD will enter Paradise!

I am sorry for your loss. My Mom died 2 years ago and I will always miss her. :bighanky: I still pray for her every day.

That being said, if your Mom was truly a Christian, then she *did *believe Jesus is God. She also believed in one God as all Christians do. (There are some erroneous statements floating around here that Christians believe in 3 gods which is absolutely, unequivocally false. )

I agree that only God knows who will go to Heaven and who will go to hell, but I believe somewhat similar to you, but I believe that those who haven’t had a chance to know Jesus will meet Him when they die and at that time will have a chance to accept or reject Him. I don’t believe for one minute that your Mom will burn in hell for being a Christian any more than I believe that any Muslim will burn in hell for being Muslim.

Jesus DID say He is God several times in the Bible. The verses have been posted several times in some different threads, but if you need us to post them again, we will be happy to.

Anyhow, welcome to the forums. I hope you stick around because I think we can learn from each other.