Are all theological developments in the West adopted by Easterners Latinizations?

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Having looked at the OP, and the list of posters so far I feel that I will be allowed frankness in this post.

I think one of the reasons theologies of the “east” are defended by the west is that they are the roots of the west. To deny them is for her to deny she has connection to the apostles. One cannot deny the great disperity in the spacifics in the realms of thought between the Early Church Fathere’s and what became the church of the west. So the west attempts to phrase them as merely alternative perspectives and more developed schools of thought when compared to the consistancy that the churches of the east show with the same, saying that their own grew out of the apostolic deposit of faith while in the east theological insight stagnated in preserving the pool inviolate.
Thus you are right the latinization of the east occours not only when practices are forced upon the faithful of the east like the majority who have responded before me have noted, but also in the taking up of thinking that the western church has. That is the development of theology and these developed theologies. This thinking is not healthy. This thinking gives us Luther, Calvin, Henry VIII, and the assundry of protestant churchmen. This thinking gives us the doctrines of sin nature, predestination and self governance independant of Church authority. Many of you will say: “Wait we are Catholic and not a part of these heretical ideas that are illigitimate developments cut off from the apostles.” I say to you: when you accept one idea foreign to the fathers as rightly developed, how do you know the others are not?" The prejiduce against the latin is justified in areas of such diseased thoughts claiming to be developed, but unjust in the areas consistent with the fathers that is free of novelties and inovations.

Your frankness is - is that really the best word ? - is a breath of fresh air . So, you think we Latins are inferior, & are not really Catholic at all; and have of course nothing whatever to contribute; that basically, our form of Christianity is worth rather less than a turd. That’s what I thought you lot thought. Thank you very much for having the honesty to say what you have. That helps so much, it really does.​

At least we can now know in advance that any future ecumenical agreements are good only as waste paper - for what use is a torrent of churchly verbiage when those in the churches do not regard one another as Christian in any sense worth discussing ?

If only churchmen were this honest…

When it comes, a Happy Christmas

 

[surgei]

So, you think we Latins are inferior, & are not really Catholic at all; and have of course nothing whatever to contribute; that basically, our form of Christianity is worth rather less than a turd.

I said no such thing. I said that the inovations and teachings foreign to the fathers was to be purged. There is much of the Latin Church that I admire. Primary being the Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. The percision of much of your teaching is great as well. One cannot argue with the power of the Rosary in the conversion of sinners and the facility of it in teaching of mental prayer.

That’s what I thought you lot thought. Thank you very much for having the honesty to say what you have. That helps so much, it really does.

Please feel free to project on me any time, tell me what I am thinking about you thinking concerning what I think you think I am thinking about you.

At least we can now know in advance that any future ecumenical agreements are good only as waste paper - for what use is a torrent of churchly verbiage when those in the churches do not regard one another as Christian in any sense worth discussing ?

If only churchmen were this honest…

Churchmen are this honest. Why do you think the MP has pulled from discussion on so many occasions?
As to the viability of future agreements let us pray now that they would be made strong and sure.

for what use is a torrent of churchly verbiage when those in the churches do not regard one another as Christian in any sense worth discussing ?

This sword cuts both ways. Look at this forum and you will see such. Only do not apply such to me as I do all in my power to cultivate the right joining of the Church that with one voice and one heart we might cry out: Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord of power and might, Heaven and earth are full of your glory. Hosanna in the highest.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

This sword cuts both ways. Look at this forum and you will see such.

The Catholic Church recognizes the Holy Mysteries of all the Orthodox Churches (Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonia alike). The Catholic Church will accept to the communion table an Orthodox parishoner.

Only some Orthodox jurisdictions recognize the validity of Catholic sacraments.

We accept Orthodox as they are into the Catholic Church.

The Orthodox rebaptize our laity into their Church.

We reach out to the Orthodox and want them to join us on missionary efforts.

The Orthodox call this proseletyzing.

We recognize Orthodox eparchies in traditinally Latin lands and even give them churches to worship in.

The Orthodox won’t recognize our dioceses in Mother Russia.

The Pope, as leader of the largest sect of Christianity tries to visit and have a brotherly conversation with the head of the biggest Orthodox Church and is shunned and humiliated.
We help with ecumenical dialog vis a vis the Muslims for our Christian brothers in the Middle East.

The Orthodox tried to overtake our eastern Catholic parishes in countries that were previously exclusively Orthodox. Hmm…

See a trend?

Happy New Year! Here comes 2008.

& don’t forget it’s the Solemnity of Mary, the Mother of God tomorrow on the Latin Calendar.

 

[Alexius]

The Catholic Church recognizes the Holy Mysteries of all the Orthodox Churches (Chalcedonian and non-Chalcedonia alike). The Catholic Church will accept to the communion table an Orthodox parishoner.

Only some Orthodox jurisdictions recognize the validity of Catholic sacraments.

We accept Orthodox as they are into the Catholic Church.

The Orthodox rebaptize our laity into their Church.

We reach out to the Orthodox and want them to join us on missionary efforts.

The Orthodox call this proseletyzing.

We recognize Orthodox eparchies in traditinally Latin lands and even give them churches to worship in.

The Orthodox won’t recognize our dioceses in Mother Russia.

The Pope, as leader of the largest sect of Christianity tries to visit and have a brotherly conversation with the head of the biggest Orthodox Church and is shunned and humiliated.
We help with ecumenical dialog vis a vis the Muslims for our Christian brothers in the Middle East.

The Orthodox tried to overtake our eastern Catholic parishes in countries that were previously exclusively Orthodox. Hmm…

See a trend?

Happy New Year! Here comes 2008.

& don’t forget it’s the Feast of the Immaculate Conception tomorrow on the Latin Calendar.

Some of your statements are true. Alot of them go both ways. Many of the Catholic parishes in Orthodox lands were taken by the Communists, not the Orthodox, unless you consider them one in the same The present day Catholic attitude is not the traditional one. Traditionally, the attitude was mutual. Of course, I still hear Catholics call Orthodox “schismatic” and “heretical” as if they changed their teachings for false ones. In Catholic Europe, especially Central Europe, Orthodox were persecuted and their churches were taken by the Catholics (acually by the governments). See, it goes both ways. The only difference is that the Orthodox stay firm in their convictions that the Catholic Church is wrong to the core…

Happy New Year 2008!

Nothing like spending your New Year debating the past…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Some of your statements are true. Alot of them go both ways. Many of the Catholic parishes in Orthodox lands were taken by the Communists, not the Orthodox, unless you consider them one in the same The present day Catholic attitude is not the traditional one. Traditionally, the attitude was mutual. Of course, I still hear Catholics call Orthodox “schismatic” and “heretical” as if they changed their teachings for false ones. In Catholic Europe, especially Central Europe, Orthodox were persecuted and their churches were taken by the Catholics (acually by the governments). See, it goes both ways. The only difference is that the Orthodox stay firm in their convictions that the Catholic Church is wrong to the core…

Happy New Year 2008!

Nothing like spending your New Year debating the past…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

Actually, in some eastern European lands the Orthodox churches themselves sued the Catholic dioceses to gain control of the Catholic parishes because they knew the regime was anti-Western and viewed any Western influence in their lands as corrupt. True, wayyyyyyy back when the attitude was mutual, like right after the schism.

 

[surgei]

Actually, in some eastern European lands the Orthodox churches themselves sued the Catholic dioceses to gain control of the Catholic parishes because they knew the regime was anti-Western and viewed any Western influence in their lands as corrupt. True, wayyyyyyy back when the attitude was mutual, like right after the schism.

I’m tired of this.
Do you really think the TLM priests give the sacraments to Orthodox?
I was denied confession tonight.
If we all have sacraments then we all have the Holy Spirit. If we all have the Holy Spirit we all have truth. Truth is one. If truth is one and we disagree on aspects of it, keeping in mind we all have the Holy Spirit, we have fallible men putting their fallible spin on the truth. This fallible spin causes croats priests to kill serbian children with butcher knives and slovak readers to kill czech bishops by running them off the road. It’s (put your own explative here). Unless, we have different aspects that we are looking at.
If we can’t come together in this forum with honesty about what our bishops are doing and what we believe, how can we expect them to have urgancy to fix the problems their predecessors made over a thousand years ago.
Let’s find ways to put the aspects together. It is the responsabilty of the Catholic to show the Orthodox what he is in a way the Orthodox can understand. It is the responsability of the Orthodox to show the Catholic what he is in a way the Catholic can understand. They both have the obligation to get past what is spun and get to what is. They both have the obligation to understand eachother.
If we don’t we will have more dead bishops and more dead children.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

I’m tired of this.
Do you really think the TLM priests give the sacraments to Orthodox?
I was denied confession tonight.
If we all have sacraments then we all have the Holy Spirit. If we all have the Holy Spirit we all have truth.

So why were you attending confession at a TLM if you don’t believe our sacraments are valid? And btw, there are Orthodox jurisdictions which accept the validity of Catholic sacraments. I believe the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America is one. In the Catholic viewpoint, the Orthodox are schismatics and a schismatic is different than a heretic. there are material schismatics and formal schismatics. A material schismatic is one who was born into the Orthodox faith and had no control over his / her circumstances, and thus would not be in mortal sin for a situation they cannot control. A formal schismatic would be a Catholic who denounced Catholicism and joined the Orthodox Church. A Catholic who joined a Protestant denomination would be a heretic most likely, saving some specific circumstances which wouldn’t apply to every convert.

 

[Woodstock]

I’m tired of this.
Do you really think the TLM priests give the sacraments to Orthodox?
I was denied confession tonight.

I pray that this was a misunderstanding on the priest’s part and, though misguided, his best effort to care for your soul.

There are any number of misunderstanding he could have about who is able to approach (he might not know that Orthodox may), when you are able to approach (he might think it is only when in danger of death), or what the consequences of your approaching are (he might think confessing you means you have converted, which was not your intent). Another possibility is that he does not believe the new canon law applies in his parish. If the provisions for Orthodox Christians were not in the canon law he referenced (I don’t know if they are), he could be mistaken about which church law governs his actions.

Because of the unfortunate state of the TLM, it is more likely to attract those who are not in step with the rest of the Church regarding certain issues, especially ecumenism. It could also be that you happened upon an extremist who viewed you with disdain, but I hope that wasn’t the case.

If I went to a certain local (canonicaly recognized) Orthodox church, I wouldn’t be allowed to confess, commune, or even stay in the sanctuary after the Liturgy of the Catechumens. I wouldn’t be able to share in the antidoran, I couldn’t say grace because they would not participate in my heathen prayer, and if I converted, they would re-baptize me. The people are very nice and are doing their best with what they have, but I wouldn’t go there and then return here to say, “See! The Orthodox don’t care about unity at all!”

If you are interested in communing in a Catholic church, I would talk to the priest outside of Liturgy. I would simply state that you are an Orthodox Christian who wishes to request the sacraments of his own accord, as is your canonical right, and you only came to introduce yourself being new and all. There’s nothing more which needs to be said.

With that said, Eastern Catholics have a hard enough time with preserving their customs and claiming their canonical rights in some Latin parishes. Don’t take it personally if you encounter difficulties or ignorance. There is much to be taught and much to learn.

 

[surgei]

Fido and Woodstock,
I hope I didn’t imply that the Catholics don’t have sacraments.
I have really gotten frustrated with the state of the One Church we share. I understand what the priest did was what he saw to be the best thing to do with what he knows of me. We are actually on close terms. He is my roomates confessor. Last night really brought me to a point of tears. Partly cause I can sin in ways to make those of a certain magdelinic profession blush. Mostly cause I was truly frustrated with the state of Our Church. We have an obligation to fix this.

If I went to a certain local (canonicaly recognized) Orthodox church, I wouldn’t be allowed to confess, commune, or even stay in the sanctuary after the Liturgy of the Catechumens. I wouldn’t be able to share in the antidoran, I couldn’t say grace because they would not participate in my heathen prayer, and if I converted, they would re-baptize me. The people are very nice and are doing their best with what they have, but I wouldn’t go there and then return here to say, “See! The Orthodox don’t care about unity at all!”

I think one of the things we should keep in mind is that there are differences in levels of what is Canonicaly Orthodox. These sound like some of the practices of the MP or ROCA, and those influenced by certain elders from Athos. In a way they are like certain aspects of the Roman Church. You bring them up validly in this discussion and I would be a coward to say that they were Ok or that this was not a problem. Although I understand their position I, and many of the bishps I follow, would disagree with them. This is exactly the point in the Orthodox Church that I have a problem with as well. (Please don’t confues me with the “can’t we all just get along” crowd.)

With that said, Eastern Catholics have a hard enough time with preserving their customs and claiming their canonical rights in some Latin parishes. Don’t take it personally if you encounter difficulties or ignorance. There is much to be taught and much to learn.

This is another issue We all have to deal with. Those who follow the Liturgy of St Tikon are not quite seen in the same light, but it is close. We all, especially converts, have to strougle with the temptaition to try and prove our orthodoxy to other faithful when all we really nead is only to prove our fidelity to God. In the end he is the only one that matters as far as fidelity is concerned.

 

[Alexius]

So why were you attending confession at a TLM if you don’t believe our sacraments are valid? And btw, there are Orthodox jurisdictions which accept the validity of Catholic sacraments. I believe the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America is one. In the Catholic viewpoint, the Orthodox are schismatics and a schismatic is different than a heretic. there are material schismatics and formal schismatics. A material schismatic is one who was born into the Orthodox faith and had no control over his / her circumstances, and thus would not be in mortal sin for a situation they cannot control. A formal schismatic would be a Catholic who denounced Catholicism and joined the Orthodox Church. A Catholic who joined a Protestant denomination would be a heretic most likely, saving some specific circumstances which wouldn’t apply to every convert.

I am tired of hearing Catholics call Orthodox “schismatics.” It was the Catholic Church who sent the Orthodox away to begin with. In essence, it could be said that the Bishop of Rome left the rest of the Church

 

[surgei]

I am tired of hearing Catholics call Orthodox “schismatics.” It was the Catholic Church who sent the Orthodox away to begin with. In essence, it could be said that the Bishop of Rome left the rest of the Church

There were a bunch of excommunications flying at that time. I don’t think that we can really say we did not have a hand in helping him leave.
Schism has in part, an understanding that everyone is right and everyone is wrong. Don’t throw too many eggs at this please. Think about all the differing levels of wrong there may be before you throw down on me.

 

[ronyodish]

This is a good paragraph from Vatican II - Decree on Ecumenism:

---

1. Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly condemned. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church-for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church-whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church-do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecumenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.

---

God bless,

Rony

 

[Ghosty]

Surgei: I pray that the priest simply misunderstood, truly believed he was working for your best interest.

The fact of the matter is that, according to the Catholic Church, he did the wrong thing by denying you Confession unless he believed you weren’t actually sorry for your sins. Our own Latin Canon Law says:

§3. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they seek such on their own accord and are properly disposed. This is also valid for members of other Churches which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition in regard to the sacraments as these Eastern Churches.

and:

Can. 980 If the confessor has no doubt about the disposition of the penitent, and the penitent seeks absolution, absolution is to be neither refused nor deferred.

Keep in mind that this is for the Latin Church; the non-Latin Churches have similar rules, and would likely be even more open (though it’s hard to get more open than "they can receive these Sacraments if they ask for them). At my Melkite mission we have regular members who are Antiochian Orthodox, and they receive the same Sacraments as the rest of us without any issues whatsoever.

If you encounter such a situation again, politely bring up the matter of Catholic Canon Law to the priest, as it may just be that he’s insufficiently educated. You’ll be doing everyone, including Christ, a favor by bringing a priest of God up to speed on the practices of the Church.

Peace and God bless!

 

[surgei]

Surgei: I pray that the priest simply misunderstood, truly believed he was working for your best interest.

The fact of the matter is that, according to the Catholic Church, he did the wrong thing by denying you Confession unless he believed you weren’t actually sorry for your sins. Our own Latin Canon Law says:

and:

Keep in mind that this is for the Latin Church; the non-Latin Churches have similar rules, and would likely be even more open (though it’s hard to get more open than "they can receive these Sacraments if they ask for them). At my Melkite mission we have regular members who are Antiochian Orthodox, and they receive the same Sacraments as the rest of us without any issues whatsoever.

If you encounter such a situation again, politely bring up the matter of Catholic Canon Law to the priest, as it may just be that he’s insufficiently educated. You’ll be doing everyone, including Christ, a favor by bringing a priest of God up to speed on the practices of the Church.

Peace and God bless!

That cannon goes on to say that conferences of bishops and bishops may put regulations on how this is done. I don’t think father was being mean. This was actually a miner point. The crux of the post is that we gotta get over the sins of our fathers.:crying: We as a laity can call our bishops out and force them to fix this mess.:crying:
I wonder could we kidnap them all lock them in say… a football stadium might be big enough, and keep them there on bread and water till they fix it.:idea:

 

[Alexius]

That cannon goes on to say that conferences of bishops and bishops may put regulations on how this is done. I don’t think father was being mean. This was actually a miner point. The crux of the post is that we gotta get over the sins of our fathers. We as a laity can call our bishops out and force them to fix this mess.
I wonder could we kidnap them all lock them in say… a football stadium might be big enough, and keep them there on bread and water till they fix it.

But don’t ya know? The sins of the father* are *passed onto the son!

 

[Woodstock]

I’ve been thinking about how it would be possible to distinguish what might have come about organically had history played out differently and what was a result of the Latin Church overstepping her bounds. The only way I see possible of sorting it out is to get rid of all recent innovations, especially those which do not have a counterpart in the geographic areas without so much Latin influence (like stations of the cross and statues) and those which we know came directly from Latin force (like an all celibate clergy).

Done cold turkey, this would obviously hurt more than help. The groundwork has to be laid so that the people are educated in the eastern faith (and not by being told to read whatever Orthodox books catch their fancy. There is a real need for solid Eastern Catholic catechesis and resource materials). Not only do they need the education, but they need the emotional support that will help them to look forward to and find joy in the practice of their faith. They have to have the spiritual and liturgical supports in place. They need leaders who have a vision, a love of God, a love of them, and a love of their Church. I’ve met a few such men who could pave the way. I’ve also met a few men who think they are doing that but lack the love for the people they are serving or the love of the Church they belong to or the vision for what the future could hold, and they are leading people astray.

I don’t see any way to tally up what is Latinization and what isn’t and I don’t see a need to try. Instead of focusing on what should be done away with, the focus as I see it right now is on what should be embraced and how to go about doing it.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

 

[Aramis]

I don’t see any way to tally up what is Latinization and what isn’t and I don’t see a need to try. Instead of focusing on what should be done away with, the focus as I see it right now is on what should be embraced and how to go about doing it.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

Some groups, like the UGCC, have been so strongly latinized that delatinization divides them harshly.

I can see letting them have their latinized liturgy, in the same way I can see letting the roman trads have their latin: it’s good for the church as a whole to keep them in union since the praxiss not sufficiently different to lead to heresy.

However, I also see the disobedience to the synods as emblematic of flaws in the popular approach to ecclesiology; the Church is NOT a democracy of the people. It never has been in Catholic praxis, and only in the EO is it now. Collegiality is not democracy. (Republicanism? Oligarchism? a little of both…)

If you want to escape a revision that has been ordered, disobedience is not the way; persistent petitioning of the hierarchs is. Likewise, If you want a revision not ordered, you need to petition persistently and politely your hierarchs.

 

[Ghosty]

That cannon goes on to say that conferences of bishops and bishops may put regulations on how this is done. I don’t think father was being mean. This was actually a miner point. The crux of the post is that we gotta get over the sins of our fathers.:crying: We as a laity can call our bishops out and force them to fix this mess.:crying:
I wonder could we kidnap them all lock them in say… a football stadium might be big enough, and keep them there on bread and water till they fix it.:idea:

I understand that you were mostly addressing the big issue, I’ve just heard about these kind of incidents so much (including some that have happened to Eastern Catholics) that I get a bit insistent on matters being addressed and corrected.

As for the major issue, I’ve also recently thought of how it would go over if we just locked our hierarchs up and said we’d let them out when they’d dealt with the Schism. It’s worked for Papal elections in the past, and is the reason we do the same to the Cardinals to this day whenever a new Pope must be elected (this is why it’s called a “con clave”, or “with the key”, because in the past we literally had to lock up the Cardinals until they came to a decision).

Peace and God bless!

 

[Alexius]

I understand that you were mostly addressing the big issue, I’ve just heard about these kind of incidents so much (including some that have happened to Eastern Catholics) that I get a bit insistent on matters being addressed and corrected.

As for the major issue, I’ve also recently thought of how it would go over if we just locked our hierarchs up and said we’d let them out when they’d dealt with the Schism. It’s worked for Papal elections in the past, and is the reason we do the same to the Cardinals to this day whenever a new Pope must be elected (this is why it’s called a “con clave”, or “with the key”, because in the past we literally had to lock up the Cardinals until they came to a decision).

Peace and God bless!

Is this “conspiracy to commit kidnapping” I hear?

Imagine a more noble cause…I wonder what the other prisoners would think…

 

[Isa_Almisry]

That cannon goes on to say that conferences of bishops and bishops may put regulations on how this is done. I don’t think father was being mean. This was actually a miner point. The crux of the post is that we gotta get over the sins of our fathers.:crying: We as a laity can call our bishops out and force them to fix this mess.:crying:
I wonder could we kidnap them all lock them in say… a football stadium might be big enough, and keep them there on bread and water till they fix it.:idea:

LOL. This is the origin of the papal conclave.
newadvent.org/cathen/04192a.htm

In earlier years, papal elections sometimes suffered prolonged deadlocks. To resolve them, authorities often resorted to the forced seclusion of the cardinal electors. The method was adopted, for example, in 1216 by the city of Perugia and in 1241 by the city of Rome. After the death of Clement IV in 1268, the city of Viterbo was also forced to resort to the seclusion of cardinals in the episcopal palace. When the cardinals still failed to elect a Pope, the city refused to send in any materials except bread and water. When even this failed to produce a Pope, the townspeople removed the roof over the cardinals’ heads. As a result, the cardinals soon elected Gregory X, ending an interregnum of almost three years.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_conclave#Historical_development

This was tried at Florence, with mixed results.