D
dostoyevskyfan
Guest
First off, I want to let everyone know that I am probably younger than most of you but I have profited greatly from your wisdom and advice. I have learned so much here on my path to a more conservative stance with respect to my Roman Catholicism. I am deeply humbled by the wealth of information here and wish to thank all of you for posting and guiding the faithful away from error. At the same time, I ask that if I seem ignorant to please be patient with me because I still think I have a lot to learn. I appreciated all the answers to my previous post and will be picking up the suggest reading material (St.Alphonsus Preparation for death, etc) I’m still new to the forums.
I’ve now learned that the church has always taught no salvation outside of the church and that the baltimore catechisms teaching of BOD, BOB could be spurious at best (I was raised in a post-VaticanII household by fairly liberal parents and did not know this and many other things). I’ve really enjoyed reading both threads on that subject. But what about the more important question of salvation within the church?
I have reasonably concluded that the number of Catholics in hell exceeds the number who actually achieve the beatific vision. It does not also seem unreasonable to assume that Saint Chrysostom was speaking the truth when he said the number of Catholic priests who are damned are greater than the number who are saved. What about popes?
Surely no one will deny the words of Christ himself that clearly state the Roman Catholic Church will be established on the rock who is called Petros, or Peter, and that the gates of hell will not have power over it. I’ve read and reread each gospel to the point where I almost have everything Christ said memorized. The only people he explicitly guarantees salvation are the apostles and the thief who stole heaven in the gospel of Luke.
Taking the third paragraph into consideration, it just seems highly likely that one or two popes, or maybe a few, have passed while not in a state of grace. What about the popes who sanctioned the 4 inquisitions, the witchhunts in Germany, crusades/protestant-catholic quarrels? Do you all honestly believe that all popes have acted charitably, have not abused their power, and have not exploited the time when western civilization lived under a theocracy? The contrary opinion almost seems foolish. It’s seems theoretically possible that a pope, infallible in his ex cathedra proclamations, could still find the way to perdition. The church still could theoretically live on and remain until Christ’s coming.
What about pope Urban II giving remission of sins to crusaders who broke the 13th commandment? You may plead that Catholics are allowed to participate in a “just war” or that killing in battle isn’t “murder”. Ok fine. What about the gratuitous slaughter of women and children at Antioch? Just normal military procedure at the time endorsed by the pope?
Pope Clement V seemed like a despicable individual, does he not? Didn’t the vatican recently exculpate Jacques de Molay and the Knights Templar from all of the accusations that were circulating at the time? Why isn’t Jacques de Molay a saint/martyr for the Church? He correctly predicted that Clement V and King Phillip IV would join him within a year before the Creator before he was burned alive at the stake for no good reason. Didn’t the knights templar take solemn oaths of chastity and devotion to our Lord? Isn’t the Knights Templar the organization directly responsible for recovering the Shroud of Turin, tangible proof of the resurrection, during the crusades?
I could see it being highly probable that some popes were just puppets of the wealthiest monarchs at certain points in history. Any official church teaching on popes in hell? Any official Church teaching on guaranteed salvation of all popes?
I’ve now learned that the church has always taught no salvation outside of the church and that the baltimore catechisms teaching of BOD, BOB could be spurious at best (I was raised in a post-VaticanII household by fairly liberal parents and did not know this and many other things). I’ve really enjoyed reading both threads on that subject. But what about the more important question of salvation within the church?
I have reasonably concluded that the number of Catholics in hell exceeds the number who actually achieve the beatific vision. It does not also seem unreasonable to assume that Saint Chrysostom was speaking the truth when he said the number of Catholic priests who are damned are greater than the number who are saved. What about popes?
Surely no one will deny the words of Christ himself that clearly state the Roman Catholic Church will be established on the rock who is called Petros, or Peter, and that the gates of hell will not have power over it. I’ve read and reread each gospel to the point where I almost have everything Christ said memorized. The only people he explicitly guarantees salvation are the apostles and the thief who stole heaven in the gospel of Luke.
Taking the third paragraph into consideration, it just seems highly likely that one or two popes, or maybe a few, have passed while not in a state of grace. What about the popes who sanctioned the 4 inquisitions, the witchhunts in Germany, crusades/protestant-catholic quarrels? Do you all honestly believe that all popes have acted charitably, have not abused their power, and have not exploited the time when western civilization lived under a theocracy? The contrary opinion almost seems foolish. It’s seems theoretically possible that a pope, infallible in his ex cathedra proclamations, could still find the way to perdition. The church still could theoretically live on and remain until Christ’s coming.
What about pope Urban II giving remission of sins to crusaders who broke the 13th commandment? You may plead that Catholics are allowed to participate in a “just war” or that killing in battle isn’t “murder”. Ok fine. What about the gratuitous slaughter of women and children at Antioch? Just normal military procedure at the time endorsed by the pope?
Pope Clement V seemed like a despicable individual, does he not? Didn’t the vatican recently exculpate Jacques de Molay and the Knights Templar from all of the accusations that were circulating at the time? Why isn’t Jacques de Molay a saint/martyr for the Church? He correctly predicted that Clement V and King Phillip IV would join him within a year before the Creator before he was burned alive at the stake for no good reason. Didn’t the knights templar take solemn oaths of chastity and devotion to our Lord? Isn’t the Knights Templar the organization directly responsible for recovering the Shroud of Turin, tangible proof of the resurrection, during the crusades?
I could see it being highly probable that some popes were just puppets of the wealthiest monarchs at certain points in history. Any official church teaching on popes in hell? Any official Church teaching on guaranteed salvation of all popes?
