Are Atheists “good” people?

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Atheists can be good in the sense that they can do good things, but the fundamental problem is that they will not do the only good thing that really matters so far as the salvation of the soul is concerned, as the following comments testify:

“Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father. But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.” Matthew 10:32-33

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.” Mark 16:16

“Fools say in their hearts, ‘There is no God.’” Psalms 14:1

“If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us.”
2nd Timothy 2:11-12

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.” Matthew 22: 37-40

Break that commandment and you are hoisted by your own petard.
 
Jimmy_B said:
Are Atheists “good” people?

Is possible to be an Atheist, reject God and be a “good” person?

In other words, can one who reject’s God, truly be “nice” or be a “good” person”?

Do people who reject God go to Heaven?

Atheists do not believe in Heaven…do they?

“Good” people go to heaven…. right?

Do Atheist go to Heaven?

Your thoughts?
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Good question JimmyB. I know some have slated it as being a “trick” or whatnot, but I really like the discussion it’s spawned.

A couple of things I feel I need to note here are, (1) the definition of “good,” and (2) the diversity of atheists.

(1) The definition of “good”: It seems to me that on this forum there are two schools of thought.

One view seems to be that “good” is joined at the hip with God. I won’t bother discussing this, because obviously if the two are inseparably linked, an atheist cannot be “good” from this standpoint.

Another view is that there’s more to good than God, and essentially, one can be good WITHOUT God. Within this definition, I believe that yes, atheists CAN be good (but not all are! …i.e. just like all Catholics may not be “good”). I remember reading something about being good without God, and it was something like this:

“If the whole world found out tomorrow that there was no God…absolutely, positively no God, would “good” people cease to be good?”

Personally, I think not. I don’t think people do good to “please” God or worm their way into heaven. I feel like people do good for worldly reasons. We know that bad things cause people pain and suffering, we know that we wouldn’t want to suffer, and so we’re empathetic and essentially treat others as we would like to be treated.

**(2) The diversity of atheists: **Atheists, in general, do not organize…especially in the way that organized religions do. Catholics, for example, have a fairly clear book outlining exactly what they believe. Atheists do not. For this reason, it’s very difficult to say what atheists in general “believe.” Some have stated that atheists do not believe in good, and I don’t think this is accurate. I’m pretty sure that some do, some don’t, and many probably have differing viewpoints.

…as for “Atheists do not believe in Heaven,” I think the answer to this one is the most clear-cut and is a resounding “no”.
 
*Atheists, in general, do not organize…especially in the way that organized religions do. Catholics, for example, have a fairly clear book outlining exactly what they believe. Atheists do not. For this reason, it’s very difficult to say what atheists in general “believe.” *Some have stated that atheists do not believe in good, and I don’t think this is accurate. *I’m pretty sure that some do, some don’t, and many probably have differing viewpoints. *

This is an interesting point. I agree that atheists generally have a clear conception of good just because they are, like everyone else, subject to the natural law that God planted in us all to do good and avoid evil.

However, the atheist, because he is detached from organized religion, as you point out, has given himself the incentive to “invent” moral goods and evils, having rejected the guidance of religion in these matters. This is an “open sesame” for the devil to plant new goods and evils in the heart, as the serpent did with Adam and Eve when it inspired them to reject the guidance of God in the matter of the poisonous fruit.

It cannot be forgotten that Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were atheists precisely because they wanted to invent and justify their own personal moralities that also fed from the same poisonous fruit.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
*Atheists, in general, do not organize…especially in the way that organized religions do. Catholics, for example, have a fairly clear book outlining exactly what they believe. Atheists do not. For this reason, it’s very difficult to say what atheists in general “believe.” *Some have stated that atheists do not believe in good, and I don’t think this is accurate. **I’m pretty sure that some do, some don’t, and many probably have differing viewpoints.
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What I see in (a) religion , someone made up the rules ,
but who said those rules are the rightones ??
And what if you disagree with those rules ??
I know this is possible !!
Charlemagne_II said:
This is an interesting point. I agree that atheists generally have a clear conception of good just because they are, like everyone else, subject to the natural law that God planted in us all to do good and avoid evil.
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The red colored words , I fully disagree !!
Charlemagne_II said:
It cannot be forgotten that Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were atheists precisely because they wanted to invent and justify their own personal moralities that also fed from the same poisonous fruit.
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Wrong , I will NEVER worship one of the mentioned ,
I worship nobody as in (a) religion !!
I don’t/will not worship (a) religion !!
I don’t believe in creatures that like to kill
because of (the) otherones who disagree ,
or the holocaust , or such kind of things ,
or just because how they look like , etc … !!
Simply expressed , kill for pleasure / fun 😦

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), september 17, 2008
 
Laurent_LUG said:
What I see in (a) religion , someone made up the rules ,
**but who said those rules are the rightones ??
And what if you disagree with those rules ??**I know this is possible !!

Moses and Jesus said they are the right rules.

If you disagree with those rules, you set yourself above Moses and Jesus.
Click to expand...
 
Charlemagne_II said:
However, the atheist, because he is detached from organized religion, as you point out, has given himself the incentive to “invent” moral goods and evils, having rejected the guidance of religion in these matters.
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**To Charlemagne II: **

It seems to me that you’re making a bit of a leap that isn’t quite very well-founded. Yes, religions like Catholicism have an organized body, unlike Atheism, but this alone doesn’t make Catholicism (just as an example) any more morally “correct” than Atheism.

The phrase: “Just because everyone’s doing doesn’t mean you should too” works here. Following the pack doesn’t always work. Going off on your own doesn’t always work either. Just because someone doesn’t have “the guidance of religion,” they’re not necessarily worse off. HAVING the “guidance of religion” can cause people to do very bad things, “in the name of religion” (e.g. Paul Hill, extremist Muslim suicide bombers, etc)

“It cannot be forgotten that Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were atheists precisely because they wanted to invent and justify their own personal moralities that also fed from the same poisonous fruit.”

Your point about Hitler, Stalin and Mao, while interesting and certainly makes one think, isn’t particularly strong. These people were exceptions, not the norm. I’m sure I could dig up some not too pleasant characters from the Catholic Church’s past, but it certainly wouldn’t be fair for me to say: “these people were Catholics precisely because they wanted to justify their own personal moralities by claiming they were serving God.”

To Laurent LUG:
Please don’t take this offensively, but could you please edit your posts a little bit better? I know there’s some good points in there somewhere but I have some trouble getting to them 🤷
 
Abello

*Atheists, in general, do not organize…especially in the way that organized religions do. Catholics, for example, have a fairly clear book outlining exactly what they believe. Atheists do not. *

Well, these are your words, not mine. I accepted them not as a proof that organization proves anything to be true: if that were so, Hitler would have been proven true by the Nazis, who were better organized than just about anyone in Germany.

I accepted your words as true because good in itself needs to be organized against organized evil. You yourself pointed out that atheism is disorganized … which hardly seems to be a virtue in that it disconnects itself from any set of values that all atheists can lend their allegiance to (except maybe the hatred of religion). That being the case, how can there be honor among atheists when they are free to make their own definitions of honor instead of pledging themselves to a unified code of honor such as that proposed by the Church?

As to the notion that there have been villains in high places in the history of the Catholic Church(Pope Alexander VI immediately springs to mind) this is freely granted. They were *without God *… a -Theos… even though they pretended to be with Him.
 
Atheists, in general, do not organize. We seem to be agreeing on that one. Here’s the part that I’m struggling with. “…good in itself needs to be organized against organized evil.” Do you mean that the only way to be good is through being organized?
Charlemagne_II said:
I accepted your words as true because good in itself needs to be organized against organized evil. You yourself pointed out that atheism is disorganized … which hardly seems to be a virtue in that it disconnects itself from any set of values that all atheists can lend their allegiance to (except maybe the hatred of religion).
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Once again, are you paralleling organization with being good? Also as a side note, I hope that you realize that “hatred of religion” has nothing to do with atheism. This is a stereotype that I hope to squash immediately. There are atheists that do not like organized religion…there are theists that don’t like organized religion. I assure you that atheists do not “lend their allegiance” to hating religion.
 
ABello

“*guidance of religion” can cause people to do very bad things, “in the name of religion” *

Not if it’s true religion. True religion makes people do very good things. I’m not aware that true atheism makes people do very good things. Why should it? Certainly history is rife with examples of atheists doing very bad things, whereas religion is rife with examples of how it has lifted people up to be better than they would be without it.

Yes, bring on the Crusades and the Inquisition. Then open the Gospels and read. It appears that many who wore the Cross never read the Gospels. Then again, many more have read them. These are the ones you never hear much about in the history books. They are the legions of saints whose lives have yet to be discovered, even by many a baptized Catholic. Yet in very quiet and subtle and humble ways they have transformed the world from evil to good. Imagine a world without Christianity, a world in which there are none but atheists, no cohesive moral system but the one crafted by the giants with the largest hammers.

You are welcome to it.
 
ABello

Atheists, in general, do not organize. We seem to be agreeing on that one. Here’s the part that I’m struggling with. “…good in itself needs to be organized against organized evil.” Do you mean that the only way to be good is through being organized?

No, the first and foremost way to be good is to follow the commandments of Jesus, and there are two in particular that need attending.

However, there is such a thing as organized crime. And really the only way to combat it is through organized police. By the same token, religion must organize to teach and foster those principles of public conduct that will provide enough police and public spirited people to take on organized crime.
 
OFF-topic: ABello , you’ve got PM 🙂
Back Topic:
Charlemagne_II said:
Laurent LUG;4188655:
What I see in (a) religion , someone made up the rules ,
but who said those rules are the rightones ??
And what if you disagree with those rules ??
Click to expand...
I know this is possible !!

Moses and Jesus said they are the right rules.

If you disagree with those rules, you set yourself above Moses and Jesus.
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Can you give one full proof you/they are right ??
Second: taken your bible , moses was older ,
so in that case , who’s right ??

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), september 17, 2008
 
**Charlemange II: **

“No, the first and foremost way to be good is to follow the commandments of Jesus, and there are two in particular that need attending.”

I’m getting the general impression from you that we NEED God/Jesus to be good. Do you believe that our morals came from Jesus, or that it’s something deeper than that?
 
*Can you give one full proof you/they are right ??

I don’t think so, and especially if you are an atheist. However, even from the point of view of an atheist, the second commandment should appeal on the basis of common sense alone.

Second: taken your bible , moses was older ,
so in that case , who’s right ??

Both … Jesus summed up Moses in two commandments.*
 
Jimmy_B said:
Are Atheists “good” people?

Is possible to be an Atheist, reject God and be a “good” person?

In other words, can one who reject’s God, truly be “nice” or be a “good” person”?

Do people who reject God go to Heaven?

Atheists do not believe in Heaven…do they?

“Good” people go to heaven…. right?

Do Atheist go to Heaven?

Your thoughts?
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You have to give me your definition of the word “good” because there are many implications. I can’t answer you till that happens. You’ve asked a lot of questions that each and of themselves would take a while to discuss. Can you just stick with one?

Peace…

MW
 
Cinette said:
How can you reject something in which you do not believe? You would have to identify and believe in something in order to reject it:nope: :tsktsk:
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Well at one point when i was younger and i did not question the church i believed in god but now i reject the hypothesis of god.
 
ABello

I’m getting the general impression from you that we NEED God/Jesus to be good. Do you believe that our morals came from Jesus, or that it’s something deeper than that?

Yes, we need God/Jesus to be good. The belief that we can do it all on our own is vanity. The strength that people get from God to be good can never be measured or believed in by atheists, because strength (grace) is an invisible power that nevertheless wields tremendous force in the world. The sin of Adam and Eve is that they could get along just fine if they could become like God, which the serpent tempted them to believe.

Our moral sense comes from God. And grace comes from God. But the more we repudiate God, the more we are inclined to repudiate the morals and the grace He has given us. God wants us to worship Him, not because God is vain, but because **we **are. God **does not need **our worship, but we need to worship so that we can get connected to the source of all grace; and so that our lives will be blessed and our last blessing will be the eternal embrace that He is ready to give us, but only if we are ready to receive it.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
Yes, we need God/Jesus to be good.
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If you believe in God, the belief that you need God to be good follows pretty easily, even if simply on the premise that God made you (never mind needing God to be good, you need God just to be)

Since we’re talking about atheism, and since it is the lack of belief in a God, what I’m really interested in knowing is, do you think you need to BELIEVE in God to be good?
 
ABello

Since we’re talking about atheism, and since it is the lack of belief in a God, what I’m really interested in knowing is, do you think you need to BELIEVE in God to be good?

Yes. Not to believe in the source of all goodness is not good. And that diminishes our capacity for goodness in all things. This is why we do not see many atheists acting either privately or through organizations to feed the hungry, house the homeless, visit the sick and imprisoned, comfort those who grieve, etc.

As someone else has said, we might be atheists and think we are doing good, and to a certain extent we might be doing some *good *things. That is granted. But to repudiate the source of all goodness in us is to cancel the merit of the good things we do, and we merely console ourselves with the illusion that if it turns out there is a God, He will forgive our repudiation of Him so long as we played according to the rest of his rules. I don’t believe that. The first and greatest commandment is to love the Lord with all our heart, our mind, and our soul. It is the first commandment of Moses and the first commandment of Jesus. Break that commandment by denying that God even exists and we have undermined all the other good things we think we have done, because we think we have done them on our own and entirely without God’s grace.

Even worse, in my opinion, is the fact that some show extreme ingratitude to the One who created us by never giving Him any thanks or tribute. This is even a far greater a sin against goodness than if we were to tell our own earthly fathers and mothers who have done so much for us that they mean nothing to us, and that we can get along just fine without them, and that it is o.k. if we treat them as if they do not exist.

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.” Matthew 22: 37-40

To break the first and greatest commandment is to die without showing remorse for one’s sins and without begging forgiveness before entering eternity. That is why so many atheists convert in old age or on their deathbed. They know instinctively that this is their last chance to be saved, and God has given them that chance even at the end, and will treat them according to the sincerity of their pleading.
 
So , you place yourself (a kind of) above atheists ??

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), september 18, 2008
 
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