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Jimmy_B
Guest
Apples and oranges…Atheists do not have the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation (Confession) and Absolution and as Roman Catholics, we do. If an Atheist sins, who does he/she asked for pardon?
Peace
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Peace
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AnAtheist
Guest
But those people do not exist by definition. If you knowingly choose to reject a god, you have to believe in him in the first place. And then you’re NOT an atheist.
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AnAtheist
Guest
How about the people we wronged?
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Cinette
Guest
YES!
You have to believe in God in order to reject Him! That is the worst state - believing and yet rejecting - that is
BAD
:yup: :clapping: :bigyikes:
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abucs
Guest
I agree very much Dauphin about goodness being grounded in God. The reality i think for Christianity is that God is love, God is goodness, God is truth.
This is a hard concept for some people especially if you are of the mind that love is a chemical reaction (only) goodness is a description of behaviour with evolutionary benefit (only) and truth is an abstract subjective concept.
The idea that the base of reality is not matter but a being of love, goodness and truth may not be agreed to by atheists but from a Christian viewpoint the embracing of love, goodness and truth is the embracing of God whether it is recognised fully or not.
I don’t think anyone who embraces God will be rejected by God.
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AnAtheist
Guest
Hm, why would someone do that? Believing in the qualities of the Christian God and all the myths around him and then rejecting all that, is plain stupid. But anyway, if mankind was driven to avoid stupidity the world would look different, so that’s not really a good argument.
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eucharisteo
Guest
I also hold this to be true. However, we mustn’t claim that we know their hearts. We must approach these people with peace and understanding. They will however be judged according to the consciences and Lord help them if they fall short and do wrong when they feel that it may be wrong. Culpability will be at play and only God knows. We must place these people within the Divine Mercy of God. Faustina’s Diary has much to teach us. My family members that died were not atheists. Confused I beleive, maybe even culpable for some of the evil they did. But all were on the edge of insanity to some level. My brother commited suicide after years of living a wordly life. He wasn’t brought to Church as a child and only receive partial catechesis late in his teens. He was almost 17 when he received his first communion. He complained about the lessons and everything. He thought it was bazaar but obeyed dad. I loved it but also received very little catechesis and never really grasped it until much later in life even though I went to the seminary. My protestant roots were much stronger than I realized and at one point I fell away to a Protestant faith with my wife. I was in protection mode and fear kept me running unitl recently. I’ve been dealing more head on and it wasn’t until the priest scandals hitting the front pages that the healing process began. God can forgive us, but we must first ask for forgiveness to receive grace. This is complex to me and I’m working through it still. I was in deep pain when I left thinking “I’m not even Catholic”. I begged God to help me through it and followed my conscience into a Protestant Church and learned the hard way why they were wrong too, like other Protestant churches. I saw the wisdom of Catholic teaching but knew noone that actually practiced it in the 70’s and 80’s. I erroniously used the example of men to try to find the true church establish by Christ. Boy did I step in a mess.
You must realize that though these things are stated ni such a way as it may sound like we can all make it to heaven… You also must realize that if one of those folks fails to follow their conscience they are probably going to be in big big trouble on the judgment day. I’m not sure who or how we’d know the clean ones are. That is up to God. Live out your faith with fear and trembling. Keep evangelizing too.
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eucharisteo
Guest
I think this is sort of a trick question. If someone rejects God that implies that he met God…believed. Then I’d agree that they may have lost their salvation.
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Cinette
Guest
I heard of someone who was Athiest and would often go to Mass "*just in case!:bounce:
*
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Cinette
Guest
You speak about obeying conscience. Well that is provided one has a well formed conscience. This is why as parents we have a huge responsibility to form our children in the Faith and I think that the first step is example.
My husband was Athiest for many years and is now a daily communicant. For 11 years he came to Mass with me and did a lot of reading. One thing that stands out is how he was touched by the Faith of people around us. So, the best way to evangelize may be through one’s example and this begins with Love of God and Love of neighbour.
Yes we must live out our faith with fear and trembling:yup:
If you ever worry about your brother and his apparent lack of Faith which might have led him to kill himself, remember that it is never an easy thing to do and we cannot know the state of his heart and soul. God is a merciful God
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eucharisteo
Guest
I agree. St. Fracis implied if he did not actually say “preach the gospel always and when necessary use words”. We are supposed to form our conscience. There are those that I run into that are going in the opposite direction. They try to fill their hearts/minds with garbabe [same sex marriage, abortion okay, cut through business ethics, etc] an are only fooling themselves. God is not fooled by such acts. The situation with my brother is that after contemplating his like I realize that he too was a victim of several things that I was exposed to as well. Dad told me himself that he made a grave error the way he raised my brother and thus introduced me to the Church earlier. By nature I had always been nurtured at least a little even though it was not pretty. But somehow God heard my constant pleas for help. We grew up in a broken home in the 60’s with lots of violence…verbal abuse mostly, neglect, and emotional abandonment. I lucked out. It was my stepmother, though illicitly married, gave me a sense of self-worth. Had I grown up feeling worth something I’d be a doctor, priest, lawyer or engineer. Though I’m still working towards a license in engineering, it has taken me forever and a day. I married a woman with equal or worst problems in that she had a very bad experiences in her fundamental evangelical faith. It took us 17 years to come to the Catholic Church together. Her pulling me more than me pulling her. I knew the problems in the Catholic Church and didn’t want to have any part of it. It took me at least a year not to be embarrassed to admit I was now Catholic…again. Though I realize I was always Catholic in mortal sin, I was really truly mixed up and angry all at the same time. I felt like everyone was lying to me. But Jimmy Akin said to someone like me “would you leave Peter because of Judas”. That just struck me as so relevant in my case and immediately I told my wife thinking about Catholicism privately without my knowing it, “I have to go back home to the Catholic Church.” I told her that deep down inside I’ve always been Catholic and now I realize that I belong in the Catholic Church because now that I know my soul is definitly in jeapardy of damnation. I set went to confession after several days of lamenting my sins of the past 17 years and made the best overwhelming confession I could with so many sins to confess. I spent a few minutes crying and lamenting and have been doing penance ever since. On April 7,2007 my wife and son were confirmed. In February our marriaage was convalidated and our 2 little ones were baptized. I had already baptized our oldest son. Actually I believe my father secretly baptized him as an infant. My family has a long history of doing this. My mom took my little brother in to wash away his Catholic baptism…reclaim him to Protestantism. He’s lost now. His real baptism was in secret.You speak about obeying conscience. Well that is provided one has a well formed conscience. This is why as parents we have a huge responsibility to form our children in the Faith and I think that the first step is example.
My husband was Athiest for many years and is now a daily communicant. For 11 years he came to Mass with me and did a lot of reading. One thing that stands out is how he was touched by the Faith of people around us. So, the best way to evangelize may be through one’s example and this begins with Love of God and Love of neighbour.
Yes we must live out our faith with fear and trembling:yup:
If you ever worry about your brother and his apparent lack of Faith which might have led him to kill himself, remember that it is never an easy thing to do and we cannot know the state of his heart and soul. God is a merciful God
I know and understand tragedy. This is a difficult topic for me to converse about because of the majority of my family being Protest, non-practicing Catholic and some doubting God. I think I’m one of the few left that truly believes and accepts orthodox Catholic teaching. It’s lonely and I try to encourage my wife to not adjust her faith on the example of knuckleheaded people out there doing their own thing.
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Reformed
Guest
Consider the Holy Sciptures for your answers to your question:
No One Is Righteous
9 What then? Are we Jews [1] any better off? [2] No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being [3] will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. - Rom 3
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Cinette
Guest
I believe that we are also a product of our age. I am now 66 and was a young adult in the 60s and 70s. My religious formation was not complete and I was away from the Church for 27 years. I just thought that I didn’t need God - only the weak did.
Then one day the H Spirit gently led me back but in the meantime the two youngest of my 4 children were not baptised and none of them have been brought up in Church. I have baptised all my grandchildren except for one. so now I pray and pray and pray.
My husband is 76 and became Catholic 3 years ago. This is a real joy.
I KNOW my prayers will be answered.
As I read your post and learned of your woundedness I had the certainty that this is typical of the times in which we have lived and are living. This is why spiritual formation is so necessary from an early age.
God bless you.
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Jimmy_B
Guest
Hello AnAtheist,
I expected a response like this and yes, this would be a good start. However, I was referring to God here, because….If Atheists do not believe in God, then they would not ask Him for forgiveness…right?
My question here was a rhetorical one. Thank you for your post.
Take Care
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Jimmy_B
Guest
Hello eucharisteo,
You do make a good point here, however, I believe that the rejection of God is a willful act and no, this was not a “trick question”… just meant to provoke a discussion.
So, now we come to the question of conscience….do mature human beings have a conscience. When we are created by God, are we given a conscience?
If there is a God, which I believe that there is, then all goodness comes from God, including our ability to discern right from wrong; our conscience.
This is what separates us humans from the animals. My point here being, that deep-down inside, everyone, whether they wish to admit it or not, are aware of their Creator-God.
Peace
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Jimmy_B
Guest
When does the coyote apologize, before or after killing and eating the rabbit?
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Cinette
Guest
We are not born with a conscience - our conscience must be formed. It is the teaching we receive that will shape :ehh: our formation.
We have been created with a mechanism that makes us reach out for God
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Jimmy_B
Guest
Hello again Cinette,
Thank you for your post. All true…but I am sure that you believe, as I do that the Holy Spirit (God) works in all of us (including Atheists) to help us form our human conscience.
He (God) did, after-all create Atheist as well. You are not implying that I am giving God too much credit here…are you?
Your thoughts?
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Cinette
Guest
I believe that the Holy Spirit is like an “operating system” - without Him we can do nothing. Some of us respond, some of us are co-operative…Hello again Cinette,
Thank you for your post. All true…but I am sure that you believe, as I do that the Holy Spirit (God) works in all of us (including Atheists) to help us form our human conscience.
He (God) did, after-all create Atheist as well. You are not implying that I am giving God too much credit here…are you?
Your thoughts?
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rtconstant
Guest
This is going from vague to insubstantial. Define what you are asking. Thus far our choices are “good” as in the typical understanding of a person having good character, ethics and morality. In which case the answer is yes. Or this could be refering to a more exact definition where in only God is good which basically answers it self and then leaves us to wonder why ask to begin with? Now you have added an additional topic which is can Atheists receive absolution or reconciliation. Which again depends on what you’re actually asking can they get through the official auspices of the Church? Well, no obviously not since they’d have to stop being atheists to join the Church. If you’re asking can God forgive them? The answer is yes He can do anything He likes and is not bound by the normative path. Or maybe you’re asking if God will give them reconciliation? If so neither I nor anyone here can answer that.
It might help if you actually described what you’re asking. Two seperate topics with multiple correct answers depending on what is intended does not a good conversation make.
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