Are atheists who think there is no afterlife comfortable with the thought of annihilationism?

[Neithan]

Not too sure what you mean by this, although I could speculate on several possibilities.

Reality is what is - even if that means we all perish in the ultimate heat death of the universe, if that is indeed what happens. Harris also pointed out that it is the fear of death, the inability or unwillingness to accept the complete cessation of conscious experience, and the attendant knowledge that we will lose loved ones, that drives most religions - certainly all those that have recourse to the assumption of a supernatural realm beyond the reality we experience.

I would be more inclined to say that atheism rather forces an acceptance of these realities, rather than offering a way around them. There is no softening, comforting recourse to a possible afterlife or the prospect of some kind of reincarnation. There is just oblivion. But that makes the life we have the most important focus for our attention. The only ones who can change our lives, make them better, have any effect upon the lives of others, are ourselves. It’s a big responsibility to shoulder. Again, to paraphrase Harris’s talk, when you accept the hard reality of death, life becomes the emergency - a long emergency for many, but nevertheless, the thing that must be dealt with. The primary difference between a theistic and an atheistic outlook, as I’m sure most forum frequenters are aware, is the focal point - for the former, it is living life in preparation for the afterlife, in the hope that somehow you have picked the right God/gods or other spiritual path; for the latter, it is just living life, in best way we know how.

Every sane person accepts the reality of death, we can plainly see it; but to believe there that reality ends at death — subjectively for the person — and ultimately as you note for the universe, is something else.

I reject the generalized notion that atheists are the cool realists who accept brute facts and try to deal with them in a stoic, noble fashion. I know many atheists, and most of them prefer to believe there is nothing after death, usually because that provides them a measure of comfort and peace. Nothing to fear. It’s also a simpler, smaller metaphysical worldview that many people find easier to cope with.
You could say atheism softens the prospect of existence.

Basic theism isn’t motivated by a fear of death. Some theists don’t believe in an afterlife anyway. Maybe some religious are motivated by a fear of death, but the belief in an afterlife would have to be implicit anyway: If there is nothing after death, there is nothing to fear.

Fear of death usually means a fear of dying. And that exists for anyone, atheist or theist.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Then there’s those who are downright foolish enough³ to make fun of the concept of an afterlife like (may they not do so for their own good) Heaven.Why would they ever do that?!?!.It’s would like if a doctor were handing medicine to you for a fatal incurable disease you have and you throw the pills at the doctor’s face jeeringly (just for the sake of doing that) and everyone in the room laughs with you a the doctor!.
.

I think that metaphor clearly explains how you see the situation. I don’t think it explains how those laughing see the situation. If the person laughing does not see the possibility of an afterlife as being credible then I think a better metaphor for describing their perspective is one in which a non-credible specialist is offering them treatment, such as a witch doctor offering to sacrifice a chicken to make them better.

I mean we all know of tons of negative moments when life seems very dismal but why would they ever deny themselves the possibility of entering Heaven for oblivion?.

It sounds like they do not see it as a possibility. People’s behaviour is often driven by what they expect/anticipate. A person that anticipates or expects the possibility might respond differently.

If you cant make it to Heaven does the cessation of any further existance actually seem better then the infernal place?.Has the apparent bleakness of this reality seeped into them so much that Heaven doesn’t even look like an escapist * pie in the sky* but just something not true that was never there?.Even if that were the case,it kind of seems like your shooting yourself in the foot if your cutting off an avenue out of such a bleak place.

Those to which you refer may not have made the value judgement on the eventual ending of their existence as bleak.

By corollary is that what you think the mind is?.A bunch of “talking sparks” going around in brain cells?.

I think the wording of this question may mischaracterize the view of your target audience.

At any rate, I think that the answers to many of your questions can be found within an introduction to psychology book. Those that have already made a career out of studying human behaviour (psychology and sociology) have already written many explanations that I think to be applicable to your questions. Armed with some of the knowledge they have shared I think you’ll be able to construct a fairly completed understand and explanation for the behaviour that you are observing.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Every sane person accepts the reality of death, we can plainly see it; but to believe there that reality ends at death — subjectively for the person — and ultimately as you note for the universe, is something else.

I reject the generalized notion that atheists are the cool realists who accept brute facts and try to deal with them in a stoic, noble fashion. I know many atheists, and most of them prefer to believe there is nothing after death, usually because that provides them a measure of comfort and peace. Nothing to fear. It’s also a simpler, smaller metaphysical worldview that many people find easier to cope with.
You could say atheism softens the prospect of existence.

Basic theism isn’t motivated by a fear of death. Some theists don’t believe in an afterlife anyway. Maybe some religious are motivated by a fear of death, but the belief in an afterlife would have to be implicit anyway: If there is nothing after death, there is nothing to fear.

Fear of death usually means a fear of dying. And that exists for anyone, atheist or theist.

I’m not sure I can even agree with your first sentence.
How sane is it to believe a dead man is alive?

 

[Bradski]

I can *easily *imagine them on their deathbed making a big last minute panic about whether there is an afterlife and what kind it will be in fear of utter oblivion.I mean even the Dharmic religions which can sometimes be hardly theistic at all at least you have the route of reincarnation taking you along²!.

Let’s say that Islam promised an afterlife and Christianity didn’t. Follow Christ and you just get the 3 score and 10 with a few extra if you’ve kept off the smokes and done some exercise.

How many Muslim converts would there be in the death bed scenario?

 

[StrawberryJam]

Let’s say that Islam promised an afterlife and Christianity didn’t. Follow Christ and you just get the 3 score and 10 with a few extra if you’ve kept off the smokes and done some exercise.

How many Muslim converts would there be in the death bed scenario?

False equivalence.
You pose only two possible options here. You do realize the fault in your premise?

 

[Neildown]

Hey Sidetrack! Nice to see another youth on the theological “field of battle”.

There aren’t many our age (I’m assuming we’re around the same age ) who enjoy religious debate or feel a strong calling to address it head on, so feel free to send me PMs or board messages if you want to do some discussion on the subject. I would offer some (name removed by moderator)ut on this article, but I’ll have to refrain for now, as its getting late, and I have more school tomorrow. Probably tomorrow!

 

[StrawberryJam]

Hey Sidetrack! Nice to see another youth on the theological “field of battle”.

There aren’t many our age (I’m assuming we’re around the same age ) who enjoy religious debate or feel a strong calling to address it head on, so feel free to send me PMs or board messages if you want to do some discussion on the subject. I would offer some (name removed by moderator)ut on this article, but I’ll have to refrain for now, as its getting late, and I have more school tomorrow. Probably tomorrow!

Your message should have been sent as a PM to the other party rather than posting on this thread.

Just a tip to help you follow the guildlines.

 

[Bradski]

False equivalence.
You pose only two possible options here. You do realize the fault in your premise?

It’s been suggested that someone like myself has only two as well. Pick a belief that has an afterlife or not (the belief is invariably Christianity). So I’m giving two as well. The person is then in my position. Stick with what you know to be true and end up with nothing or swap to a belief system that you have already rejected, just in case…

In actuality, in the death bed scenario, I have quite a few options in regard to an afterlife. If I decide in my last few moments that I would, all things considered, like to have one, then which one do I choose?

 

[StrawberryJam]

It’s been suggested that someone like myself has only two as well. Pick a belief that has an afterlife or not (the belief is invariably Christianity). So I’m giving two as well. The person is then in my position. Stick with what you know to be true and end up with nothing or swap to a belief system that you have already rejected, just in case…

In actuality, in the death bed scenario, I have quite a few options in regard to an afterlife. If I decide in my last few moments that I would, all things considered, like to have one, then which one do I choose?

I wish this were there thread called all about Bradski, but it is not. There are not just two possible options here, yet you tell us there are only two options.

I’m sure you are armed against fallacy of logic, but I am unsure how.

 

[vera_dicere]

I’m no atheist, but I find the idea of annlihiation quite peaceful.

If I’m wrong about the whole Catholicism thing, I hope its the atheists who’ve got it right, I wouldn’t want to be hanging out alongside the Stix or something.

But I’ve always wanted to haunt a supermarket, right by the lollies, so I can scare all the fat kids as I rattle the liqourice twists. .

 

[StrawberryJam]

I’m no atheist, but I find the idea of annlihiation quite peaceful.

If I’m wrong about the whole Catholicism thing, I hope its the atheists who’ve got it right, I wouldn’t want to be hanging out alongside the Stix or something.

But I’ve always wanted to haunt a supermarket, right by the lollies, so I can scare all the fat kids as I rattle the liqourice twists. .

So you are basically okay with an anti catholic idea of a god type that will poof you off, and that to you is peaceful, as long as a god does it.

Dying a normal death somehow for you, is just not as dramatic as you would like it to be.

 

[bri89]

The more I think I about it the deeper my conviction becomes that neither possibility, oblivion or ceaselessness, is the least bit appealing. Annihilation is not a particularly comforting thought, dwelling on it too much starts to deprive things of meaning. Conversely, I don’t desire an eternity of bliss and most definitely not an eternity of torment, an eternity of anything is a hell in itself. Endlessness seems as horrifying to me as the nihilist’s abyss. I think of Herman Melville’s quote " what is man that he should live out the lifetime of his God?" Heaven- the frightening monotony of eternal worship, but frankly, I rarely think of heaven; but my mind, heart, soul, and everything in me revolts against the possibility of an eternal hell. It seems immensely unfair, the most obvious injustice of it being, as many have noted, infinite punishment for finite crimes. Also, for many people this life is a hell. Hundreds of millions of people in this world must their whole lives suffer the dehumanizing conditions of dire poverty, and to think that there are people who have endured so much misfortune and misery in this life will have an eternity of horror awaiting them in next life is monstrous. For some, first an earthly hell, then an eternal one? I don’t want to sound pessimistic, but this is a dreary subject for me. I prefer the idea of reincarnation where existence is cyclical, multiple lives and multiple bodies rather than one life in a linear eternity. Unfortunately, I don’t believe in reincarnation, I just prefer it as a theory.

 

[StrawberryJam]

The more I think I about it the deeper my conviction becomes that neither possibility, oblivion or ceaselessness, is the least bit appealing. Annihilation is not a particuraly comforting thought, dwelling on it too much starts to deprive things of meaning. Conversely, I don’t desire an eternity of bliss and most definitely not an eternity of torment, an eternity of anything is a hell in itself. Endlessness seems as horrifying to me as the nihilist’s abyss. I think of Herman Melville’s quote " what is man that he should live out the lifetime of his God?" Heaven- the frightening monotony of eternal worship, but frankly, I rarely think of heaven; but my mind, heart, soul, and everything in me revolts against the possibility of an eternal hell. It seems immensely unfair, the most obvious injustice of it being, as many have noted, infinite punishment for finite crimes. Also, for many people this life is a hell. Hundreds of millions of people in this world must their whole lives suffer the dehumanizing conditions of dire poverty, and to think that there are people who have endured so much misfortune and misery in this life will have an eternity of horror awaiting them in next life is monstrous. For some, first an earthly hell, then an eternal one? I don’t want to sound pessimistic, but this is a dreary subject for me. I prefer the idea of reincarnation where existence is cyclical, multiple lives and multiple bodies rather than one life in a linear eternity. Unfortunately, I don’t believe in reincarnation, I just prefer it as a theory.

I would prefer many things also.
None of them are true because I prefer them, just as the catholics here will tell you in defense of their beliefs.
Our minds and hearts and everything may seem to make us feel things should be a certain way.
In no way at all should we use these barometers to rule out truth from untruth.

 

[Bradski]

There are not just two possible options here, yet you tell us there are only two options.

Perhaps we’re talking at cross purposes. The Christian would only see two options for me: Not believing in God (that is, believing there is nothing after death) or believing in the Christian God and having a happy-ever-afterlife. That’s why, in my hypothetical, I only gave him two.

I’ve actually got quite a few: Not believing in God (that is, believing there is nothing after death) or believing in any of the other religions and deities that would offer me a get-out-of-jail card.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Perhaps we’re talking at cross purposes. The Christian would only see two options for me: Not believing in God (that is, believing there is nothing after death) or believing in the Christian God and having a happy-ever-afterlife. That’s why, in my hypothetical, I only gave him two.

I’ve actually got quite a few: Not believing in God (that is, believing there is nothing after death) or believing in any of the other religions and deities that would offer me a get-out-of-jail card.

Which deities offer a get out of jail card if you do not mind me asking?
Never studied up on these types of things.

 

[Hypnotoad]

I once met an atheist who said nonexistence was preferable to existence.

People are really silly.

 

[StrawberryJam]

People are really silly.

Toads are not silly, therefore there is no afterlife.

 

[tonyrey]

The more I think I about it the deeper my conviction becomes that neither possibility, oblivion or ceaselessness, is the least bit appealing. Annihilation is not a particularly comforting thought, dwelling on it too much starts to deprive things of meaning. Conversely, I don’t desire an eternity of bliss and most definitely not an eternity of torment, an eternity of anything is a hell in itself. Endlessness seems as horrifying to me as the nihilist’s abyss. I think of Herman Melville’s quote " what is man that he should live out the lifetime of his God?" Heaven- the frightening monotony of eternal worship, but frankly, I rarely think of heaven; but my mind, heart, soul, and everything in me revolts against the possibility of an eternal hell. It seems immensely unfair, the most obvious injustice of it being, as many have noted, infinite punishment for finite crimes. Also, for many people this life is a hell. Hundreds of millions of people in this world must their whole lives suffer the dehumanizing conditions of dire poverty, and to think that there are people who have endured so much misfortune and misery in this life will have an eternity of horror awaiting them in next life is monstrous. For some, first an earthly hell, then an eternal one? I don’t want to sound pessimistic, but this is a dreary subject for me. I prefer the idea of reincarnation where existence is cyclical, multiple lives and multiple bodies rather than one life in a linear eternity. Unfortunately, I don’t believe in reincarnation, I just prefer it as a theory.

I don’t think I have ever come across a more negative attitude!

 

[Hypnotoad]

Toads are not silly, therefore there is no afterlife.

Mmm a straw man that could only be concocted by the most seedless of preservatives.

 

[Neithan]

I’m not sure I can even agree with your first sentence.
How sane is it to believe a dead man is alive?

Huh

A dead man is not alive.

The question is whether death means the annihilation of existence or not.

For example, a rock is not alive, but it does exist. The analogy breaks down of course (I’m not saying a dead man is as oblivious as a rock) but that’s the gist of the question.

Catholics believe death is a separation of body and soul, not an annihilation of either. Obviously the physical matter of the body does not cease to exist, but it decays. The philosophy is there is in the soul (the consciousness) a substantive and incorruptible element.