Are bare shoulders appropriate at Mass?

[maslibertad]

In my humble opinion, the answer to this question is in that little leaflet - sometimes quoted in these forums.
Marylike Dress standards - are or should remain the rule / norm, and I agree with another poster that priests should be unafraid to emphasize this regularly. Needless to say, by reason of that leaflet, if women are required to dress a certain way daily (i.e. Marylike), it would include Church - whether on Sundays or not.

This is my favourite, yes women should cover their shoulders, not show cleavage, not wear pants, but dresses or skirts that go at least below the knee. And they should wear their little white sweater if they have to. The BEST point is that they should not have two closets, one for church and one for everywhere else. Basically if they can not wear it at Church they should not be wearing it at all.

However the problem (and what we need to focus on) is going to the shopping mall and trying to find appropriate dresses!!! There is rarely anything made nice that is appropriate, I know I have been trying to find dresses for my bridesmaids. I have conceded and will be resorting to having them tailor made which will run each of my bridesmaids about 200 dollars. When you compare it to the 20 dollar dresses women can buy at their local Ross, JC Penny or Walmart it is no wonder that they wear this clothing, after all it is pretty much all that is AVAILABLE. I myself will have to pay to alter (modestify) my own wedding dress which is otherwise amazing

If anyone in the Phoenix area would be willing to help me with my dress or teaching me to sew, I would very much appreciate it!!!

 

[Bluegoat]

I find the whole “Marylike” standard thing totally useless. What does it say, other than choose your clothes with the proper spirit? As far as we know, she dressed like other young women of her time and place and religion, which is perhaps not what we want people to do. It isn’t appropriate for either women or men to actually try to wear clothes in the style of 1st century Palestine. And even as far as covering up the same parts of the body, or same parts of the body in religious settings, the parallels aren’t exact for Europeans, much less people from the jungles of South America.

So is this really saying more than - have a pious and modest attitude when buying your clothes?

 

[happilycatholic]

Bare shoulders are the least of our worries at our parish. We have young girls coming to mass in those dresses that come just above your bum and are sheer and look more like tunic tops than dresses.

We have a new priest so I hope he’ll have the nerve to address the problem. Our last priest, God Love him, was too shy I think.

 

[Bluegoat]

Bare shoulders are the least of our worries at our parish. We have young girls coming to mass in those dresses that come just above your bum and are sheer and look more like tunic tops than dresses.

We have a new priest so I hope he’ll have the nerve to address the problem. Our last priest, God Love him, was too shy I think.

Those are dresses?? I thought they were supposed to be worn with those skinny legging things?

 

[una_fides]

no.

 

[RedSoxWife]

However the problem (and what we need to focus on) is going to the shopping mall and trying to find appropriate dresses!!! There is rarely anything made nice that is appropriate, I know I have been trying to find dresses for my bridesmaids. I have conceded and will be resorting to having them tailor made which will run each of my bridesmaids about 200 dollars. When you compare it to the 20 dollar dresses women can buy at their local Ross, JC Penny or Walmart it is no wonder that they wear this clothing, after all it is pretty much all that is AVAILABLE. I myself will have to pay to alter (modestify) my own wedding dress which is otherwise amazing

I still shop at JCPennys and Target (and lots of garage sales) and to make them work for Church and everyday wear I add a camisole and a sweater. I wish there were more modest choices at mainstream stores, but I don’t see it happening anytime soon, since the demand in our culture really isn’t there. I’m trying to learn to sew now too, so I don’t have to wear 3 layers just to have a cleavage-less long dress. It seems like all the long dresses are low cut and all the high necked dresses are tight and short!

 

[una_fides]

I thought this was a “Traditional” forum. Sorry, must have pushed the wrong button.

In the Traditional Latin Mass, this is not even a question. Modesty is the word for both male and females.

I know at NO Masses you can see all sorts of things. Another point there is no such thing as Traditional Novus Ordo. 40 years doesn’t make a tradition.

Excellent points. Really they are both the same Sacrifice–just that the TLM is done in a more clearly reverent, sacrificial, and mysterious way than the NO. Hence, people that attend the NO should be dressing with the same reverence as if they were to meet the Judge of the living and the dead, not a date! They should dress as if they were to be present at their mother’s execution, not a dinner party! At Mass we are present at the actual same sacrifice of calvary. The exact same sacrifice! Just presented in an unbloody manner. When you really think about that, I think the question of bare shoulders becomes obsolete and the answer should be apparent. The Catholic Church is not part of the “Jesus is my home boy theology.” We kneel during the consecration for a reason!

 

[Bluegoat]

Excellent points. Really they are both the same Sacrifice–just that the TLM is done in a more clearly reverent, sacrificial, and mysterious way than the NO. Hence, people that attend the NO should be dressing with the same reverence as if they were to meet the Judge of the living and the dead, not a date! They should dress as if they were to be present at their mother’s execution, not a dinner party! At Mass we are present at the actual same sacrifice of calvary. The exact same sacrifice! Just presented in an unbloody manner. When you really think about that, I think the question of bare shoulders becomes obsolete and the answer should be apparent. The Catholic Church is not part of the “Jesus is my home boy theology.” We kneel during the consecration for a reason!

You know, the church that I mentioned up-thread that said skirts and jackets and ties only was a TLM only church. I had been curious to go but that really turned me off. And I could have found a skirt to wear with no problem, I wear them most of the time until I am in long-john mode in winter, but there was something about it that was just a little off. Do they not want people without skirts or ties in their wardrobe?

I realize that not all churches with TLM have this kind of policy, but I wonder anout the connection.

 

[maslibertad]

I think they do it as a matter of respect, if a person is going to meet a president at a dinner they usually wear nice clothing. Why not do the same for God himself in the Holy sacrifice of the Mass? Of course if they cant afford a tie it is different.

You know, the church that I mentioned up-thread that said skirts and jackets and ties only was a TLM only church. I had been curious to go but that really turned me off. And I could have found a skirt to wear with no problem, I wear them most of the time until I am in long-john mode in winter, but there was something about it that was just a little off. Do they not want people without skirts or ties in their wardrobe?

I realize that not all churches with TLM have this kind of policy, but I wonder anout the connection.

 

[una_fides]

You know, the church that I mentioned up-thread that said skirts and jackets and ties only was a TLM only church. I had been curious to go but that really turned me off. And I could have found a skirt to wear with no problem, I wear them most of the time until I am in long-john mode in winter, but there was something about it that was just a little off. Do they not want people without skirts or ties in their wardrobe?

I realize that not all churches with TLM have this kind of policy, but I wonder anout the connection.

Bluegoat,

You raise an important question. What if someone doesn’t own nicer clothes? What do they then wear to Mass? The answer would be the best that they have, being sure to portray the modesty of the blessed Virgin Mary as we will be in the presence of her divine Son, specifically at his execution to be exact. I’ve seen people go to a TLM in jeans and a t-shirt and sit near the front. I can tell you that I do remember wondering whether he/she knew the Mass was a TLM or just accidentally stumbled in or if he/she didn’t know or just didn’t own nicer clothing, and I’m sure others may have wondered the same and many probably didn’t notice or weren’t paying any attention. I typically don’t pay attention to what people wear, but at the TLM, you realize you are at something beyond yourself for which it only makes sense to dress with respect to the presence of the Almighty. That said, I would never judge such a person as evil for doing so, as they may honestly just not know or perhaps they are new to the faith, do not own nicer clothes, or just don’t know enough to care, etc. The best response is love, and I can tell you that I’ve never seen nor heard of any parish throwing someone out for how they dress, though I think sometimes when women dress immodestly that should be the case. I’ve heard stories of extraordinary misters at NO masses dressing scandalously as they hand out the Body of Our Lord. To be the potential and even likely cause of one’s committing sin when about to receive our Lord is very serious sin (Mat 18:6; Mar 9:41; Luk 17:2).

 

[Ailina]

I think they do it as a matter of respect, if a person is going to meet a president at a dinner they usually wear nice clothing. Why not do the same for God himself in the Holy sacrifice of the Mass? Of course if they cant afford a tie it is different.

Now, there’s the thing. I’ve grown up with the idea that suits and ties are for business people to wear downtown. Most people can wear clothes that are nice that don’t require a suit and tie. So why the fixation on suits and ties? And clothing in general? Christ associated specifically with people who were not of those classes that dressed so formally all the time.

It seems that people at TLMs (to judge from the threads here) are much more concerned with clothing than attending to the mass. There seems to be a lot of chatter about the horror of it. That appearance is what really matters, not the mass itself really. That is the impression I get, because these topics keep coming up in this particular forum. In which case, it seems that dressing up could be considered a distraction.

Perhaps everyone should be handed a monk’s cossack at the door, so that everyone is dressed the same, and nobody can be shocked, and everybody can really, truly pay attention to the mass rather than what people are wearing.

 

[una_fides]

Now, there’s the thing. I’ve grown up with the idea that suits and ties are for business people to wear downtown. Most people can wear clothes that are nice that don’t require a suit and tie. So why the fixation on suits and ties? And clothing in general? Christ associated specifically with people who were not of those classes that dressed so formally all the time.

** It seems that people at TLMs (to judge from the threads here) are much more concerned with clothing than attending to the mass. There seems to be a lot of chatter about the horror of it. That appearance is what really matters, not the mass itself really.** That is the impression I get, because these topics keep coming up in this particular forum. In which case, it seems that dressing up could be considered a distraction.

Perhaps everyone should be handed a monk’s cossack at the door, so that everyone is dressed the same, and nobody can be shocked, and everybody can really, truly pay attention to the mass rather than what people are wearing.

Let me help clarify things for you. It precisely the reason that the Mass is so important to Traditionalists that clothing is important. Without the Mass being what it is, how someone demonstrates their reverence and gratitude looses all its meaning. So again, Traditionalists only make mention that we should dress nicely to Mass because of their strong faith in the Real Presence and the realization of the nature of the same exact Sacrifice of Calvary becoming present at the altar. We are all coming before our just judge, and when we receive Him in the Holy Eucharist we pray that this Eucharist would not be a condemnation unto punishment because of our sins but that it would be a remedy and healing for our soul. We go to confession to make sure our souls are in the purest state possible to receive our Lord. That is what is most important. Outward appearance of dressing nicely only stems from and flows out of a direct result of our love for the Lord and reverence for the awe of his presence.

 

[revert_jen]

It seems that people at TLMs (to judge from the threads here) are much more concerned with clothing than attending to the mass. There seems to be a lot of chatter about the horror of it. That appearance is what really matters, not the mass itself really. That is the impression I get, because these topics keep coming up in this particular forum. In which case, it seems that dressing up could be considered a distraction.

If you’re talking about modest vs. immodest dress, then the whole point is that by wearing immodest dress women are making it harder for men to attend to the Mass. Immodest dress in Church (and to some extent everywhere else too) is a sin against charity, as you are making it harder for others not to sin. I mean, say some man has a psychological problem where it is difficult for him not to think about sex. Say he has been working diligently to overcome it. Can’t he at least go to church without temptations?

As far as sloppy clothes go, in my experience, the middle-class and wealthy are FAR more likely to dress sloppily than the poor. There’s nothing wrong with wearing modest but worn or poor-quality clothes that are clean and tidy. Nobody’s saying you have to wear silk. But lots of people wear clothes to church that they would consider inappropriately casual for wearing to work.

–Jen

 

[revert_jen]

Well, I was in a quandary on the weekend…I went to the lake with the kids, packing nothing but beach clothes, because the weather report said HOT, HOT, HOT!

So come Saturday evening, I realized that I didn’t have a sleeved anything. So now what? Miss church and commit a mortal sin, or go to church and sit at the back? Then my 82 yr old mom and 86 year old dad needed a ride to church, so then I had to figure out if I was dishonouring my mother and father by not taking them, on top of the mortal sin of not going myself on account of that sleeveless shirt…

I doubt anyone is suggesting that you should miss Mass rather than wear a sleeveless shirt. But next time you go to the lake, you could remember when you are packing that you will be going to church and bring “church clothes.”

 

[Jacafamala]

I still shop at JCPennys and Target (and lots of garage sales) and to make them work for Church and everyday wear I add a camisole and a sweater. I wish there were more modest choices at mainstream stores, but I don’t see it happening anytime soon, since the demand in our culture really isn’t there. I’m trying to learn to sew now too, so I don’t have to wear 3 layers just to have a cleavage-less long dress. ** It seems like all the long dresses are low cut and all the high necked dresses are tight and short!**

Yes.

 

[Ailina]

I doubt anyone is suggesting that you should miss Mass rather than wear a sleeveless shirt. But next time you go to the lake, you could remember when you are packing that you will be going to church and bring “church clothes.”

You are right, and yes I will make sure to bring a sleeved shirt this weekend! It’s a small rural country church in the middle of the bush in hard-scrabble farm country. Nobody in that part of the world wears suits and finery to church, but simple, clean presentable clothes.

 

[Renko]

I know, I know… Another thread on modest dress! But this question has bothered me all summer as we’ve gone on family vacations and attended Mass at various parishes and I’ve noticed all the bare shoulders. Sometimes it’s spaghetti straps and sometimes it’s tank tops or sun dresses that otherwise cover everything (i.e. no cleavage), but it definitely seems to be the norm (at least in the parishes we went to both in California and Massachusetts). It wasn’t just young women who had bare shoulders either. Are bare shoulders becoming acceptable in Catholic Churches? Is it the norm where you are?

I personally wouldn’t feel comfortable with bare shoulders in Mass. That’s just me though and I guess it’s not the popular view these days!

This is not the norm where I live and I believe it is downright disrespectful and low life behavior.

 

[Ailina]

This is not the norm where I live and I believe it is downright disrespectful and low life behavior.

Jas 2:1-5

My brothers and sisters, show no partiality
as you adhere to the faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ.
For if a man with gold rings and fine clothes
comes into your assembly,
and a poor person in shabby clothes also comes in,
and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes
and say, “Sit here, please, ”
while you say to the poor one, “Stand there, ” or “Sit at my feet, ”
have you not made distinctions among yourselves
and become judges with evil designs?

 

[paperwight]

That reading from James is a bit of a red herring, though, isn’t it.

He’s pointing out the different treatment given to a person who is rich, (and therefore influential in the world) whose wealth is made obvious by his luxurious clothes, versus that given to the poor (and therefore without wordly importance) man whose poverty is made obvious by his shabby clothes.

It’s not the clothes themselves.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I am old enough to remember what went before Vatican II and what went after.

My mother and my sister wore sun dresses to Mass. This is south Louisiana. When I was a kid we didn’t have A/C in church. All we had was big oscillating fans.

No one got freaked out by sun dresses in the 50s and 60s.