Are capitalistic and conservative ideals sinful?

[WillieWonka]

Both France and Germany have already come out of their recessions. We haven’t even hit out bottom but we will. In good part it’s because people other than their top 10% or 20% actually have some money to spend in those countries. Those countries have figured out ‘living wage’. If people are paid decently they can afford to consume. You can’t pay people half of cost of living and expect that population to purchase your hideously over-priced shoddy product.

Ford said a good business was about make the best product possible at the lowest cost possible while paying your workers the highest wage possible. Clearly Ford was just a big old dummy who didn’t get it that American companies are supposed to put out the shoddiest product possible while charging as much as the market will bear and getting as close to slave labor as you can with workers and achieving all that by using your money and power to corrupt Congress into passing bills in your favor.

What a stupid and unsuccessful businessman Ford was!

Obviously the greed thing is the way to go, look at our thriving economy!

Can you tell us what those wages in Germany, France , and the US are?

An interesting phenomenon is the nations that did not follow a plan of Keynesian stimulus spending, including France and Germany, are doing better than those that did.

However, if you can demonstrate Germany and France are moving out of recession due to living wage, there is a Nobel waiting for you.

 

[WillieWonka]

Hi, JanetF,

No doubt about it - there are no easy answers for what you bring up … but, let me add at least one other variable: you can not conclude that there is a lack of respect simply because people are living outside in conditions that most of us would most likely not be in. So, why are they there? Do not rule out mental illness - individuals who honestly want to be away from others and not having to face or conform to any expectations. do not rule out drug addiction that has permanently changed the way people preceive and appreciate their world (another variation on mental illness - but, this is drug induced, rather then naturally occuring).

Many are on the streets because mental hospitals were either shut down or greatly reduced in size because of the development of various antipsychotic medications that improved care… but, did not necessarily eliminate the need for hospitalization.

I think we can all show more kindness to those on the street - but, this does not necessarily mean that they are there because of a lack of kindness on the part of others.

God bless

Those drugs were developed. After they were, various social activist groups succeeded in having thousands of mentally ill released from state hosptals. The theory was they would take their medicine and be just fine. Unfortunately, they didn’t take their medicine and are not fine at all. The state hospitals were shut down, so the resources that were once devoted to these people no longer exist. This is another example of people with good intentions trying to impose morality while being ignorant of the target of their efforts.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, WillieWonka,

Not quite… actually, this is more of a stereotype with a smattering of truth here and there - but, not really describing the reality before us.

Prior to the development of antipsychotic medicatons, long-term confinement in a psychiatric hospital with little hope of effective treatment (not much existed) or receiving dignity or respect. This is the environment that those with good intentions tried to eliminate or greatly reduce. Unfortunately, there are diseases that do not lend themselves to maintenance medications … and then there are patients who are simply non-compliant under any circumstances over any period of time.

Those drugs were developed. After they were, various social activist groups succeeded in having thousands of mentally ill released from state hosptals. The theory was they would take their medicine and be just fine. Unfortunately, they didn’t take their medicine and are not fine at all. The state hospitals were shut down, so the resources that were once devoted to these people no longer exist. This is another example of people with good intentions trying to impose morality while being ignorant of the target of their efforts.

Nothing is ever easy… and few things are simple. And, as the late Walter Cronkite used to say, “That’s the way it is!”

God bless

 

[WillieWonka]

Hi, WillieWonka,

Not quite… actually, this is more of a stereotype with a smattering of truth here and there - but, not really describing the reality before us.

Prior to the development of antipsychotic medicatons, long-term confinement in a psychiatric hospital with little hope of effective treatment (not much existed) or receiving dignity or respect. This is the environment that those with good intentions tried to eliminate or greatly reduce. Unfortunately, there are diseases that do not lend themselves to maintenance medications … and then there are patients who are simply non-compliant under any circumstances over any period of time.

Nothing is ever easy… and few things are simple. And, as the late Walter Cronkite used to say, “That’s the way it is!”

God bless

I agree.

 

[Contarini]

In other words, since God created man in his image, we are naturally individuals. But to be precise, it is actually “Personalism”, that was created by Christianity through the idea of the Holy Trinity, as well as through the idea of Christs two natures (divine and human).
Personalism exists between the pillars of totalitarianism and Individualism but I think lies closer to individualism almost right next to it really…

You don’t provide any evidence for this claim. You admit that the two are different, but then try to qualify your admission by saying that they’re not that different.

Not very convincing.

Personalism isn’t “between” totalitarianism and individualism, nor is it just a modified version of individualism. It is something different altogether, because it doesn’t define human personhood as being in competition with other persons. So the question of whether we jealously guard the frontiers of our autonomy or subsume that autonomy into a collective is a false question. To be a human person is to be a person for others. But to live a life open to others is to live a life that fully expresses our own unique dignity as persons.

Again, St. Paul expressed it well in his metaphor of the Body.

Edwin

 

[buffalo]

My 2 cents.

I have watched this economy shed hard low tech high paying jobs for the last 40 years.

How many here would wish that their child would work in a steel mill? How many even want them to have dirt under their fingernails? How many come out of high school or college without any skills? It is all about how much money my kid makes and the size of the house they live in. (not much about character)

Well, somebody will take those jobs. The developing world has lines to get those jobs that we so easily let go. Why? Because some economists told us the place to go is to high tech, service, and medical professions.

Well folks when that happens the standard of living will surely fall. Get used to it.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Buffalo,

Now… I’m only guessing … but… immediately after WW I a little song came along that expressed what may be a sentiment similar to what you stated, Buffalo:

“How you going to keep them down on the farm, after they’ve seen Paree,
How you going to keep them away from Broadway, jazzing around, painting the town,
How you going to keep them away from harm, that’s a mystery,
They’d wish they’d never seen a rake or plow, so who the heck can parlez-vous a cow,
How you gonna keep them down on the farm, after they’ve seen Paree.”

The honest answer is that ‘they’ didn’t stay on the farm - and, American farming made the transition from the family farm to what we have today in agribusiness.

My 2 cents.

I have watched this economy shed hard low tech high paying jobs for the last 40 years.

How many here would wish that their child would work in a steel mill? How many even want them to have dirt under their fingernails? How many come out of high school or college without any skills? It is all about how much money my kid makes and the size of the house they live in. (not much about character)

Well, somebody will take those jobs. The developing world has lines to get those jobs that we so easily let go. Why? Because some economists told us the place to go is to high tech, service, and medical professions.

Well folks when that happens the standard of living will surely fall. Get used to it.

The invention and development of mass production of the automobile, put a lot of wagon and wheelrights out of business. Finding a decent buggy whip is a lot more difficult these days. But, you know, looking back you can see how we have adapted to the transitions. If truth be known, we have always been adapting to transitions.

So, while, in some ways, it is sad to see the demise of the ‘Rust Belt’ industries - our economy (and the world economy, too) is on the cusp of still another change - this time we are well advancing into the ‘Information Age’. There are skills we can still teach our children - and, maybe the most useful one of all, doesn;t involve dirty fingernails, but rather a strength of character to do the right thing when it is so much easier just to do the thing right! That character instruction is usually wordless - your kid seeing you do the right thing day after day.

Don’t lamet for too long about this change. I think a better use of time would be do what you can to help those young people around you (and those on this List) be showing strength of character.

God bless

 

[WillieWonka]

Hi, Buffalo,

Now… I’m only guessing … but… immediately after WW I a little song came along that expressed what may be a sentiment similar to what you stated, Buffalo:

“How you going to keep them down on the farm, after they’ve seen Paree,
How you going to keep them away from Broadway, jazzing around, painting the town,
How you going to keep them away from harm, that’s a mystery,
They’d wish they’d never seen a rake or plow, so who the heck can parlez-vous a cow,
How you gonna keep them down on the farm, after they’ve seen Paree.”

The honest answer is that ‘they’ didn’t stay on the farm - and, American farming made the transition from the family farm to what we have today in agribusiness.

The invention and development of mass production of the automobile, put a lot of wagon and wheelrights out of business. Finding a decent buggy whip is a lot more difficult these days. But, you know, looking back you can see how we have adapted to the transitions. If truth be known, we have always been adapting to transitions.

So, while, in some ways, it is sad to see the demise of the ‘Rust Belt’ industries - our economy (and the world economy, too) is on the cusp of still another change - this time we are well advancing into the ‘Information Age’. There are skills we can still teach our children - and, maybe the most useful one of all, doesn;t involve dirty fingernails, but rather a strength of character to do the right thing when it is so much easier just to do the thing right! That character instruction is usually wordless - your kid seeing you do the right thing day after day.

Don’t lamet for too long about this change. I think a better use of time would be do what you can to help those young people around you (and those on this List) be showing strength of character.

God bless

Let’s not forget all those elevator operators. Yes, every elevator in every building used to have a guy inside it who drove the thing.

And the 500,000 telephone operarors we used to have?

In 1900 40% of the population were farmers.

Somehow we manage to transition.

 

[buffalo]

Hi, Buffalo,

Now… I’m only guessing … but… immediately after WW I a little song came along that expressed what may be a sentiment similar to what you stated, Buffalo:

“How you going to keep them down on the farm, after they’ve seen Paree,
How you going to keep them away from Broadway, jazzing around, painting the town,
How you going to keep them away from harm, that’s a mystery,
They’d wish they’d never seen a rake or plow, so who the heck can parlez-vous a cow,
How you gonna keep them down on the farm, after they’ve seen Paree.”

The honest answer is that ‘they’ didn’t stay on the farm - and, American farming made the transition from the family farm to what we have today in agribusiness.

The invention and development of mass production of the automobile, put a lot of wagon and wheelrights out of business. Finding a decent buggy whip is a lot more difficult these days. But, you know, looking back you can see how we have adapted to the transitions. If truth be known, we have always been adapting to transitions.

So, while, in some ways, it is sad to see the demise of the ‘Rust Belt’ industries - our economy (and the world economy, too) is on the cusp of still another change - this time we are well advancing into the ‘Information Age’. There are skills we can still teach our children - and, maybe the most useful one of all, doesn;t involve dirty fingernails, but rather a strength of character to do the right thing when it is so much easier just to do the thing right! That character instruction is usually wordless - your kid seeing you do the right thing day after day.

Don’t lamet for too long about this change. I think a better use of time would be do what you can to help those young people around you (and those on this List) be showing strength of character.

God bless

I agree. Character is #1.

How many people do your hear at a dinner party discussing their child’s character? What do they most talk about?

The point I am making is that since the industrial revolution manufacturing productivity has increased 2-3% per year. This is most responsible for our standard of living increases. Automation is key and yes buggy whips are now automated.

Manufacturing output is at record highs in the US. But machines don’t pay taxes or buy consumer goods. It is akin to less paying in to social security to support more baby boomers growing older. That means standard of living will fall. The government will have to print more money leading to hyperinflation. We have always had a natural raw material advantage. Taking raw materials and making products (value added) made out economy what it is. I am worried that a reliance on information age jobs will be a problem up the road.

 

[WillieWonka]

I agree. Character is #1.

How many people do your hear at a dinner party discussing their child’s character? What do they most talk about?

The point I am making is that since the industrial revolution manufacturing productivity has increased 2-3% per year. This is most responsible for our standard of living increases. Automation is key and yes buggy whips are now automated.

Manufacturing output is at record highs in the US. But machines don’t pay taxes or buy consumer goods. It is akin to less paying in to social security to support more baby boomers growing older. That means standard of living will fall. The government will have to print more money leading to hyperinflation. We have always had a natural raw material advantage. Taking raw materials and making products (value added) made out economy what it is. I am worried that a reliance on information age jobs will be a problem up the road.

Machines do not pay taxes. But the guy who makes a profit from them does.

I doubt steam locomotives paid taxes either when they were introduced.

 

[fish90]

My 2 cents.

I have watched this economy shed hard low tech high paying jobs for the last 40 years.

How many here would wish that their child would work in a steel mill? How many even want them to have dirt under their fingernails? How many come out of high school or college without any skills? It is all about how much money my kid makes and the size of the house they live in. (not much about character)

Well, somebody will take those jobs. The developing world has lines to get those jobs that we so easily let go. Why? Because some economists told us the place to go is to high tech, service, and medical professions.

Well folks when that happens the standard of living will surely fall. Get used to it.

I wish that many kids today could go out and make a decent living without getting a college degree. Maybe then these kids would have less time to binge drink and get big with random people at parties:thumbsup:. Today, nearly every job needs a college degree and I feel this will lead to a large gap between the rich and the poor. During the good ole days, a person would skip college and use that money to build a business and be successful for the most part. Wait until the next bad recession. I believe there will be a very big wake-up call for non-degree jobs. Someone will definitely argue everything that I have said.

Hey WillieWonka,

Here is an article from the Vatican by an economist stating the failure in the economy was due to immorality. I do not think you can argue that.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0903797.htm

God Bless

 

[JanetF]

Fish 90
Why do you say conservatives are bad people?

 

[fish90]

I do not remember if I said that. If you can find out where I said that, I will happy to respond that I do not think conservatives are bad people.

God Bless

 

[WillieWonka]

Hey WillieWonka,

Here is an article from the Vatican by an economist stating the failure in the economy was due to immorality. I do not think you can argue that.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0903797.htm

God Bless

Of course I can ague with it. The guy didn’t say anything. People all over the world are seriously trying to figure out what happened and how it can be fixed, and this guy makes absolutely no contribution to the discussion.

 

[buffalo]

I wish that many kids today could go out and make a decent living without getting a college degree. Maybe then these kids would have less time to binge drink and get big with random people at parties:thumbsup:. Today, nearly every job needs a college degree and I feel this will lead to a large gap between the rich and the poor. During the good ole days, a person would skip college and use that money to build a business and be successful for the most part. Wait until the next bad recession. I believe there will be a very big wake-up call for non-degree jobs. Someone will definitely argue everything that I have said.

Hey WillieWonka,

Here is an article from the Vatican by an economist stating the failure in the economy was due to immorality. I do not think you can argue that.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0903797.htm

God Bless

Here is a real problem - corporate America spends billions to train and educate college grads. So why pay for the degree?

 

[WillieWonka]

Here is a real problem - corporate America spends billions to train and educate college grads. So why pay for the degree?

The corporations will hire the guy who can be educated at the least cost.

However, I would seriously advise kids to look at professional degrees from 2-year colleges. For example, if I am hiring a computer programmer, a guy with a four year degree has no advantage over a guy with a two year degree. Often the two year guy has taken more computer courses than the four year guy.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Buffalo,

I guess it depends on what it is you want to accomplish. The jobs that will be available in the next 3-5 years are just hitting the drawing boards now … people with a degree have proven one thing (and, no, it is not that they are smarter then anyone else without a degree) but that they are disciplined! Yep - they were disciplined enough to complete the necessary degree requirements (whether Associate or Baccalaureate).

With demonstrated evidence of discipline in one area (the diploma) , the employer has evidence that this new employee can be taught and will be disciplined enough to be productive for the company that just did the hiring.

Here is a real problem - corporate America spends billions to train and educate college grads. So why pay for the degree?

Yes, there will always be jobs that do not require a degree. And just like plumbers, electricians and carpenters - they will command impressive compensations…to say nothing about the ability to start their own businesses. Degrees are not everything… and I have 2 bachelors and 2 masters…

God bless

G

 

[WillieWonka]

Hi, Buffalo,

I guess it depends on what it is you want to accomplish. The jobs that will be available in the next 3-5 years are just hitting the drawing boards now … people with a degree have proven one thing (and, no, it is not that they are smarter then anyone else without a degree) but that they are disciplined! Yep - they were disciplined enough to complete the necessary degree requirements (whether Associate or Baccalaureate).

With demonstrated evidence of discipline in one area (the diploma) , the employer has evidence that this new employee can be taught and will be disciplined enough to be productive for the company that just did the hiring.

Yes, there will always be jobs that do not require a degree. And just like plumbers, electricians and carpenters - they will command impressive compensations…to say nothing about the ability to start their own businesses. Degrees are not everything… and I have 2 bachelors and 2 masters…

God bless

G

If a kid really wants a huge leg up in the job market, get a technical undergrad degree then go in the military as an officer for a few years.

 

[buffalo]

Hi, Buffalo,

I guess it depends on what it is you want to accomplish. The jobs that will be available in the next 3-5 years are just hitting the drawing boards now … people with a degree have proven one thing (and, no, it is not that they are smarter then anyone else without a degree) but that they are disciplined! Yep - they were disciplined enough to complete the necessary degree requirements (whether Associate or Baccalaureate).

With demonstrated evidence of discipline in one area (the diploma) , the employer has evidence that this new employee can be taught and will be disciplined enough to be productive for the company that just did the hiring.

Yes, there will always be jobs that do not require a degree. And just like plumbers, electricians and carpenters - they will command impressive compensations…to say nothing about the ability to start their own businesses. Degrees are not everything… and I have 2 bachelors and 2 masters…

God bless

G

I disagree - it is not my experience that college educated are more disciplined. As a matter of fact a pretty good percentage admit to cheating their way through.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Buffalo,

OK, you are free to disagree… according to you, these grads are not disciplined and dishonest. So, why should an employer hire a college grad knowing that they must be trained anyway?

I disagree - it is not my experience that college educated are more disciplined. As a matter of fact a pretty good percentage admit to cheating their way through.

Seriously, no matter what economic system you live under, you still need to have an educated workforce.

God bless