Are Catholic men being turned into wimps?

[deb1]

See… the whole young generation is a problem. Sometimes I talk to guys and I feel like I’m talking to girls, whereas if I talk to an elderly lady that survived WW2, it feels like I am a girl compared to them.

Our foremothers were much tougher then we females are now. they had to be. Childbirth often meant death, housework was back breaking(No appliances) and you likely would loose at least one of your children to illnesses. Men were no weaker then the women. They couldn’t be. Yet somehow previous generations balanced male and female strength much better then we do today.

 

[SeekerJen]

You’re quite right. The problem is that having a disproportionate population of females doing these good works doesn’t prod the males to become more involved.

If a female with “domestic” power over a male doesn’t vehemently encourage that (those) male(s) to DO MORE within the Church while she DOES MORE within the Church, then she is not doing her job.

Men feel “intimidatedly displaced” by females when females take a “role”, and are MUCH less likely to “usurp” their “beloved females” positions.

This drives men from being “participatorially Catholic”.

Is that what anyone wants?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

So…what is the answer?

Should all women step down from Church service and simply pray that enough men will step up so that the entire burden of parish life doesn’t fall on the shoulders of our already overworked priests?

I get the point of the article, and agree with much of it, but from what I have experienced, the women are stepping up because the men are not. So do we actively discourage women from participating in the parish other than by showing up for the Sacraments, or do we actively encourage men? I get the impression quite often on these boards that many would choose the former.

 

[whatevergirl]

So…what is the answer?

Should all women step down from Church service and simply pray that enough men will step up so that the entire burden of parish life doesn’t fall on the shoulders of our already overworked priests?

I get the point of the article, and agree with much of it, but from what I have experienced, the women are stepping up because the men are not. So do we actively discourage women from participating in the parish other than by showing up for the Sacraments, or do we actively encourage men? I get the impression quite often on these boards that many would choose the former.

Interesting point of view, SeekerJen! I tend to usually agree with your viewpoint.

Addressing the above, I don’t see a ‘manless’ Church…I guess I’m not seeing this huge problem that seems to be overtaking the RCC?

 

[Keikiolu]

So…what is the answer?

Should all women step down from Church service and simply pray that enough men will step up so that the entire burden of parish life doesn’t fall on the shoulders of our already overworked priests?

That’s one option. Not a very good one, in my opinion, but if it were done “in the right way” by the females it WOULD put some serious pressure on the (for the most part) mammary deprived within the Church to get off their keisters.

I get the point of the article, and agree with much of it, but from what I have experienced, the women are stepping up because the men are not. So do we actively discourage women from participating in the parish other than by showing up for the Sacraments, or do we actively encourage men?

I’m not a pastor, meaning, I don’t DO trying to help people change like a “pastoral facilitator” (shepard) would, because I’m too con-sarned “gruff” (at least at the moment), but SOMEBODY out there needs to very actively encourage men to step up to the plate,… and I really do think that only their women are in the position to do that task.

There’s a nasty positive (negatively speaking) feedback loop (“vicious spiral”) in the dynamic where:

*) There aren’t enough priests, because it isn’t “manly” to be so
*) Men don’t want to get “too close” to priests, because it’s “unpopular”
*) Men don’t participate in the Church
*) Women fill in the gaping holes in “participation”
*) Men see the “holes” as filled by “FEMALES” and don’t want to usurp them
*) Men lose even more motivation to participate
*) Men lose more motivation to participate as priests
*) Women fill even more holes
*) Lather, rinse, repeat…

I get the impression quite often on these boards that many would choose the former.

I think sometimes it would be nice to bring back the medieval stuff that men used to do, costumery and pagentry and mock battles and goofy play-acting and dodging partially domesticated livestock, to enliven the guys in a more “macho” sort of way.

It WOULD be quite interesting if all the women of the Church would one day (or one week) simply, but powerfully, publically pray their hearts out for their menfolk to do the right thing.

…OK,… feel free to pummel me as you will with the silly-stick.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[whatevergirl]

That’s one option. Not a very good one, in my opinion, but if it were done “in the right way” by the females it WOULD put some serious pressure on the (for the most part) mammary deprived within the Church to get off their keisters.

I’m not a pastor, meaning, I don’t DO trying to help people change like a “pastoral facilitator” (shepard) would, because I’m too con-sarned “gruff” (at least at the moment), but SOMEBODY out there needs to very actively encourage men to step up to the plate,… and I really do think that only their women are in the position to do that task.

There’s a nasty positive (negatively speaking) feedback loop (“vicious spiral”) in the dynamic where:

*) There aren’t enough priests, because it isn’t “manly” to be so
*) Men don’t want to get “too close” to priests, because it’s “unpopular”
*) Men don’t participate in the Church
*) Women fill in the gaping holes in “participation”
*) Men see the “holes” as filled by “FEMALES” and don’t want to usurp them
*) Men lose even more motivation to participate
*) Men lose more motivation to participate as priests
*) Women fill even more holes
*) Lather, rinse, repeat…

I think sometimes it would be nice to bring back the medieval stuff that men used to do, costumery and pagentry and mock battles and goofy play-acting and dodging partially domesticated livestock, to enliven the guys in a more “macho” sort of way.

It WOULD be quite interesting if all the women of the Church would one day (or one week) simply, but powerfully, publically pray their hearts out for their menfolk to do the right thing.

…OK,… feel free to pummel me as you will with the silly-stick.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

You have an interesting way of putting things, but I agree that it takes prayer. Again, I’m of the belief that we can all work together…in our respective roles…for God’s kingdom.

 

[Keikiolu]

You have an interesting way of putting things, but I agree that it takes prayer. Again, I’m of the belief that we can all work together…in our respective roles…for God’s kingdom.

Whatevergirl,… I LOVE that image in your sig…!

Reminds me, somewhat, of Sulamith Wulfing whom I fell in love with in my adolescence.

…though, your artist seems even more beatifically sensual. VERY beautiful…!

Anyway,… I agree with you wholeheartedly. Sometimes I sound rather pessimistic, but in reality I have enormous faith in people, especially Catholic people, to eventually get necessary work done.

Most love to you, aloha nui loa 'oe, and I may have to go in search of that piece of artwork you’ve blessed us with…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

 

[whatevergirl]

Whatevergirl,… I LOVE that image in your sig…!

Reminds me, somewhat, of Sulamith Wulfing whom I fell in love with in my adolescence.

…though, your artist seems even more beatifically sensual. VERY beautiful…!

Anyway,… I agree with you wholeheartedly. Sometimes I sound rather pessimistic, but in reality I have enormous faith in people, especially Catholic people, to eventually get necessary work done.

Most love to you, aloha nui loa 'oe, and I may have to go in search of that piece of artwork you’ve blessed us with…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.

Thank you such a kind reply…I wish you well on your search, and many blessings to you. I have great faith in our beautiful RCC!!..we are all on a journey…and we must help one another to see our points of view. God bless!

 

[Sr_Sally]

The real men are the one’s living their faith, and not sacrificing it to the HDTV or the club scene.

Exactly. How is it a woman’s fault if men decide to play golf, sleep in, or watch football instead of coming to Mass? If no man steps up to be lector or CCD teacher, how is that a woman’s fault? And here we are talking about grown men, not little boys so let’s not bring up the “but it’s all girls doing it” argument. Why were they having donuts served by the “hospitality guild” of women instead of pancakes cooked by the Knights?

Time to get over the ‘cooties’ and start ‘manning up’, boys!

 

[Sr_Sally]

Let’s face it once you take away the role of defender, provider and leader away from a husband, he’s kind of forced into a pseudo - female role. What is there left for him?

In Christ,

JD

Who ‘took’ these roles away from men? No one that I can tell. Men simply decided to let go of those roles. Of the Catholic men who are not serving in the church, I bet many of their grandfathers and great-grandfathers did. They were usher, they were Knights, they counted the collection, they made repairs, mowed the rectory lawn. Those jobs are still available and many more–guys just need to step up to the plate.

And as I said before it is completely lame for a grown man to say he doesn’t want to serve because ‘there are too many women’.

 

[Keikiolu]

Exactly. How is it a woman’s fault if men decide to play golf, sleep in, or watch football instead of coming to Mass? If no man steps up to be lector or CCD teacher, how is that a woman’s fault? And here we are talking about grown men, not little boys so let’s not bring up the “but it’s all girls doing it” argument. Why were they having donuts served by the “hospitality guild” of women instead of pancakes cooked by the Knights?

Time to get over the ‘cooties’ and start ‘manning up’, boys!

Hear hear…!! ( I’m male, by the way. )

We should be eatin’ MEAT made by the Knights, who carry GUNS and KNIVES and,… uh,… those long loop-ended stringy things that you wind around cows to make 'em stop running away from ya’ll…!

YEEHAW…!! Gidd’up, all you urinal users…!

Cooties ain’t nuthin’ after a good dose o’ the saddle-rash.

 

[Sr_Sally]

Hear hear…!! ( I’m male, by the way. )

We should be eatin’ MEAT made by the Knights, who carry GUNS and KNIVES and,… uh,… those long loop-ended stringy things that you wind around cows to make 'em stop running away from ya’ll…!

YEEHAW…!! Gidd’up, all you urinal users…!

Cooties ain’t nuthin’ after a good dose o’ the saddle-rash.

You are too funny!!

I have never seen a Knight of Columbus with a lasso, but hey! they got swords!

 

[Keikiolu]

You are too funny!!

I have never seen a Knight of Columbus with a lasso, but hey! they got swords!

Ooooo,… SWORDS…???

MUCH better than lassos… </me drooling>

I’m gonna have to check into this “Knights” thing… sounds nifty!

Do you have to buy a horse,… and a squire?

 

[Spirithound]

Ooooo,… SWORDS…???

MUCH better than lassos… </me drooling>

I’m gonna have to check into this “Knights” thing… sounds nifty!

Do you have to buy a horse,… and a squire?

kofc.org/un/index.cfm
It seems the horse is optional, but you provide your own squire

 

[deb1]

OUr media depicts men as ignorant Neanderthals who only care for sex and eating. A lot of young boys, especially if they don’t have fathers, end up having a narrow view of manhood. This hyper masculinity is not historical though.

Men in the past wrote many of the great works of poetry, created artwork, and wrote plays. All of this today would be considered wimpy and unmanly. This is of course silly. Richard the LionHearted wrote poetry, for example and he certainly wasn’t feminine.

We won’t get men back into the church until parents begin to actively fight the media’s portrayal of males. Encourage your son to have interests in both sports and reading or the arts. Talk to all your children, but boys also, about honor and responsibility. Fathers and mothers should treat each other with respect and try very hard not to make negative comments about the opposite sex(at least in front of their opposite sex children) Sadly, I have heard mothers say things like, ‘all men are stupid.’ when their sons are in the room.

I think that once the next generation realizes that manhood stands for something more then following some selfish hedonistic desires then there will be more male participation in the church and even an upsurge in vocations.

 

[Keikiolu]

kofc.org/un/index.cfm
It seems the horse is optional, but you provide your own squire

WOW…!

OK then… very cool…! I’ll leave off the horse, as I don’t see where that helps a Knight particularly much, and I see the “squire” is a 10-18 yrOld sub-member-ish-person of the KofC, one of whom I don’t have lying around handily and which would cost WAY too much to buy, so I’ll forego one of those as well.

But,… woof,… sounds like fun,… in a thoroughly “manly” way of course…!

…and Swords,… and plumage and capes and probably spiffy shiny shoes, too, right…!!?

Super cool…

 

[Lepanto]

My goodness, the estrogen level in here is through the roof! The womenfolk have not only taken over the actual operation of the universal Church, but they’ve also taken over this little thread too!

When you all take a break from all the mutual affirmation and comments of love and sororal support, :grouphug: would one of you lassies run and fetch me a ham sandwhich and a beer?*

*Anything but Miller Beer – I’m boycotting them because of the Folsom Street Fair thing.

:knight1:

 

[GraceDK]

Its interesting though…
I think both men and women ought to become more active within the Church. and actually… I think the key to solve all problems is the laity becoming more active.
I recently had a conversation with a friend and the Church came up and we agreed that the Church was way too male-oriented both in terms of its leadership, method and style. Our own congregation being the point in question we pointed at both the sterility (both in its preaching, lack of zeal and emotion and its architecture), the systematized intellectualism, lack of conversaion and fellowship, and male hierarchy as elements which, when taken to the extreme can lead to the spiritual death of all. I think men and women must stand together in “building Church” all else is a misunderstanding. Look always at the first Christians (Acts of the Apostles)

If we complain of active participation from either ladies or gentlemen then I think we miss the whole point about being ministers for God. Focus must be moved from form to substance.

 

[deb1]

My goodness, the estrogen level in here is through the roof! The womenfolk have not only taken over the actual operation of the universal Church, but they’ve also taken over this little thread too!

When you all take a break from all the mutual affirmation and comments of love and sororal support, :grouphug: would one of you lassies run and fetch me a ham sandwhich and a beer?*

*Anything but Miller Beer – I’m boycotting them because of the Folsom Street Fair thing.

:knight1:

I will gladly get you a beer and ham sandwich if you clean out all my gutters and put in me a new driveway. I have a whole list of honeydos that my husband couldn’t do while he was in Afghanistan.

Fetching stuff for you comes with a price.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

I will confess I did not read the whole article, just read the first page and a little of the second, but I’ll try to finish it later when I get a chance, and maybe my opinion will change. I probably shouldn’t comment yet, but I don’t really like what I read so far… the author seems to blame the women for scaring away the men. Too many women here there and everywhere in Church. God wants us all to be there, so there can’t be “too many women” at Church, but there can be not enough men, and something tells me its more the fault of the person who is not there than of the people that are there. Also, even if the Church was full of women, and there was one lonely man there, I don’t see why it would have to affect him that much, since our obligations to God and our love for God, along with the wonderful privilege of receiving the Eucharist, have nothing to do with the gender of the person sitting next to us at Mass. I do believe though that its important for both parents to attend Mass and set an example for their children, so yes, a father should set an example for his son and never miss Mass. He should also teach his son manners, how to treat a lady, etc.
I didn’t like the way he started off with the priest kinda being a mamma’s boy either. Anyways, I’ll finish reading it later and recomment then.

 

[gardenswithkids]

… the author seems to blame the women for scaring away the men. Too many women here there and everywhere in Church. God wants us all to be there, so there can’t be “too many women” at Church, but there can be not enough men, and something tells me its more the fault of the person who is not there than of the people that are there. …I didn’t like the way he started off with the priest kinda being a mamma’s boy either. Anyways, I’ll finish reading it later and recomment then.

I read the whole article. Overall, I liked the article as it pointed out a problem in the Church that I recognize–the lack of involvement from average Catholc lay men. Recognizing the problem is an important first step, but blaming women for scaring away men from Church contradicts the notion of male leadership. Leaders get both credit and blame.

I am a woman, and I am willing to accept the “leadership” role of men—but I give male leaders get both credit and blame for what happens in the Church. Women can’t make males wimpy. Authentic religion doesn’t make males wimpy. Wimps come from bad male role modeling.

There wouldn’t be a disproportionate number of females if more men were involved. If men view church as a “woman’s activity” the problem lies with poor male role modeling. Women can be good role models, but we aren’t male role models.

Boys need real men to show them how to be men. Fathers–including spiritual fathers (aka priests)–must be real, authentic men, not wimps. Wimpy fathers raise wimpy sons; authentic Catholic fathers will raise up strong Catholic men. The article addressed the contribution of seminaries and the priesthood, which I think is where the blame properly lies. “…Fathers—of families and of souls—lost their authoritative voice, or abandoned their responsibilities to seek self-fulfillment.”

The article also asserts that a spike in “Catholic manliness” post WWII contributed to the problem. It says,"…Ironically, this brief spike in Catholic manliness may have contributed to its own downfall, for by the 1960s a counter-movement had begun. In families there emerged a widespread rebellion against “paternalistic” authority. I suspect part of the problem was that when “manliness” is “elevated” there is often a tendency to suppress women. Suppressing females and failing to recognize and appreciate the contribution of women is *not *authentic manhood—it’s chauvinism. Feminism wasn’t just a rejection of “paternalistic authority”–it was an over-reaction to some very real sins against women by some who held “paternalistic authority”.

Parents must properly care for all their children, not just the children of one sex. Priests shouldn’t ignore their spiritual sons in favor their spiritual daughters, even if it is the women primarily helping them in the parish. Priests shouldn’t ignore their spiritual daughters in favor of their spiritual sons either. There is a proper balance to all of this, but we haven’t achieved it yet.

If Catholic men want to fight against male wimpiness, don’t fight against women unless you think women are the real leaders of the Church. The fight isn’t men versus women. The fight is good verses evil, and we need strong leaders to help us win the battle against sin.