Are Catholic men being turned into wimps?

[mystagogia]

Truly a sad story. But I think we’re talking about a couple different things here. “Women controlling the bedroom” as you put it, is mr.pathetic’s skewed spin on his own situation, which he applied in general to the entire American public a few posts ago. That’s just, in my opinion, a psychological and rhetorical phenomenon called transference.

Now women having complete control over their “reproductive rights” is an abortion issue. I agree with you that women keeping custody of their children, no matter what, in a divorce is just one part of the horrible no-fault divorce laws in America. These laws actually encourage divorces.

How could a woman not be in control of the bedroom? The only way around it is compulsion against the will, or rape. That would be gravely wrong. She determines the where, when, and frequency of the act. Complaints by men along these lines are common, even if mrpathetic’s situation is tragically extreme. Usually things get worked out towards some accommodation, but what if you wind up like mrpathetic with a frigid wife who doesn’t ever want to play? It’s conceivable, and there’s not too much you can do about it.

I don’t know if that situation is avoidable, however, or necessarily a unique feature to our times. It could happen in any age it seems. Women have always weilded great power in this area, and always will. I’m not sure it’s what makes us “whimpy”, as the question was put.

Looking back on my life the episode that illustrated the problem of “whimpification” to me most disturbingly was the Lorena Bobbitt fiasco. Remember this one: Lorena Bobbitt had married John Wayne Bobbit, by all accounts a disaster of a man. An unhappy marriage resulted. One night Mr. Bobbitt came home drunk and passed out (I think there was an allegation of physical abuse here, too), and Mrs. Bobbitt retaliated by gruesomely mutilating him while unconscious, driving away, and chucking his body parts out the car window in the process.

What stunned me and every male friend, colleague and family member I know was the extreme over-the-top expression of joy, halleluja and high-fives that overcame every woman to be found. We witnessed women coming into work and saying to each other, “Did you hear the news?” “Yes!” “YOU GO, GIRL!” (chorus). I was working as a waiter in a restaurant at the time, and for days news of the Bobbitts’ melodrama dominated the conversation of groups of female customers and staff, to the point of utter giddiness at this remarkable “victory” for women everywhere. Feminist commentators shared in outpouring this ecstasy.

I remember well the huddles we guys used to have, “What to make of this? This is really bizarre! What is wrong with them? How do we respond?”

We never figured it out in the end, I think. Just bite the tongue and hope it passes. Take the hit, like we do when they come in with the “Girls Rule, Boys Drool” t-shirts, when they get up and start off anything with, “As a woman, I feel …”, or when they take the daughter aside to school her about how girls are better than boys in every way.

Because if you oppose them or question their verdict on any subject related to women and gender relations, you lose. You’re an insensitive person who doesn’t understand, or worse, a sexist. If you’ve got a beef, well then understand you’ve had it coming.

Our sexes really have been set on war with each other, tragically.

 

[ac_claire]

Claire, don’t you think the “not tonight, darling” thing is a specific female weapon, just like physical violence is a specific male weapon in marriages? Not exclusively, but way more preponderently used by wifes and husbands, respectively.

It could be, yeah. You’re right. Part of that is just the differences in the natural sex drives of men and women. But what you’re talking about is disordered. Not saying it never happens, but it shouldn’t happen. Just like any kind of weird emotional blackmail shouldn’t ever happen, especially in a marriage.

But just because it does sometimes doesn’t mean it’s a phenomenon or a cultural epidemic. I still think that’s more transference than anything else.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Claire, I see your point and I agree, just because it does happen sometimes, it is not a cultural epidemic. And a wife occasionally being moody or conveniently having a headache when she wants a new carpet and her husband is undecided which is the stuff of sitcoms, is really not the same thing as denying marital intimacy for years and using emotional blackmail.

 

[mrpathetic]

So you have given up then…I’m sorry to hear that. I still hope you change your mind, and I hope your wife comes around too. Although to be honest, you’re not really giving her a reason to are you?

Could my marriage be turned around, and produce some sort of real relationship at this point? It is certainly possible, but the odds are extremely small. God can do anything through His power. But I have done everything within my power, and nothing has worked. I have tried everything under the sun, and it has only made things worse

Until my wife returns to Christianity, I see little hope for our marriage. I can keep it going, through humble subservience, obedience to my vows, complete continence, and commitment to the will of Christ. I can set the best possible example for my wife, and hope that somehow, she decides to follow.

My marriage will be like a patient on life support - barely hanging on, but stable. Doctors can keep patients on life support indefinitely; I guess I can do the same with my marrige.

But until my wife does at least something, to return to the faith, then I see no reason for hope.

============================================================

p.s., I hope that I have not given the impression that I am a chauvanist or misogynist. I am not. I am, however, extremely frustrated, and I don’t know how much more of this I can take. A sexless marriage is a brutal burden, that no one should have to endure.

If you are considering marriage, please discuss this with your betrothed. Make sure that your future spouse is committed to a real sex life, for the whole of your marriage.

And if you are leading a pre-Canaa program, please make this part of the program. Please make each candidate to marriage understand that they have obligation, to fulfill the needs of their future spouse - including their sexual needs.

 

[mrpathetic]

Gosh, I just remembered another sad story. An acquaintance of mine was caught by his wife with another woman in the couple’s bedroom, in the couple’s bed, and they divorced after some 25 years of marriage. The man said that his wife totally denied him marital intimacy for more than one year.

That man was selfish, to an extraordinary degree. I would never commit adultery. Sexual refusal is not a valid excuse for adultery. (It might be the reason for it, but there is no excuse. There is a moral difference.)

By contrast, I have tried to be selfless, to an extraordinary degree. And I suspect, that there are countless men, who have done the same. We endure sexlessness, or some other form of humiliation, in order to salvage what we can of our relationships.

I really believe that either extreme makes a mockery of marriage. And both extremes dishonor the Lord. They both violate His plan for marriage and sexuality. God did not indeed for man and woman to be married, and permanently sexless. See 1 Corinthians 17:

“Do not deprive each other, except perhaps by mutual consent for a time, to be free for prayer, but then return to one another, so that Satan may not tempt you through your lack of self-control.”

==============================================================

I view adultery to be an appauling sin; it has done innumerable damage to people over the years. But sexual refusal is a close second. How many people have been driven to despair, because of this? I am certainly one of those. There is a gaping hole, where my heart used to be, and I don’t know how I will ever fill it…

 

[mrpathetic]

But just because it does sometimes doesn’t mean it’s a phenomenon or a cultural epidemic. I still think that’s more transference than anything else.

By some estimates, the problem of sexless marriage is affecting 20 million couples in the U.S. alone. If that doesn’t qualify as an epidemic, I don’t know what is. It may be a silent epidemic, but and epidemic all the same.

See this research article:

foxnews.com/story/0,2933,328226,00.html

 

[vocatio]

and women are not priests, they are in some cases, asked to be** EEM**, and I am not seeing how that is not respecting men’s roles in the Church. I am not for female priests, bishops, etc…I believe in those traditions that the Church set forth. I also believe in if the Pope were to issue a change to women serving at all near the altar, I would also respect that change. I am more of a traditionalist …but, for now, if the Pope is ok with women in certain roles, I’m not sure why we, as lay people, are not. And, I don’t see a strong connection between women serving in lay roles when needed or asked, and that of men becoming ‘wimps,’ as the OP’s title suggests.

A correction that bothers me and should others when they hear it because the Church clearly speaks agains the incorrect use of the terms here:
There is no such thing as an EEM. If you are speaking about what I believe you mean then you mean EMHC - Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. Only the clergy are “Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion”. The term Eucharistic Minister is reserved solely for the clergy because they are the true ministers of the Eucharist. We are extras asked to help the presiding clergy. This a perfect example of why I prefer Eastern Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism over the Latin Rite. This is exactly the issue I had when I left the Church many years ago before coming back in the past couple of years. I came back kicking and screaming though and knew that eventually I’d have to deal with all of those women that lead me astray within the Church and the lame men who followed them, spineless to stand up to them…including the clergy.

Far too many men have been swept away from the doors of ministry. I believe that there is a correlation between women controlled ministries in the Church now and the dwindling numbers to the priesthood and religious life. Women want control now and men are trying to be respectful to the point of self mutilation, cutting their own throats to show women they love them and care…sacrificing their lives, and even their faith because they have too in order to survive. I wrote a lot on this in depth but it was too much to post and obviously would allow it. This is a debate that needs to take place among the bishops more to restore the dignity of the man as it once existed…Of course without some of the other twisted male thinking though.

I love women, but I also love men. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ. But men need to regain their dignity and step up to the plate to accept a more active role in the Church community and the Church needs to insure that men can afford to support their Catholic families in those roles. Stop making them low paying jobs so that only women can afford to take them.

 

[GraceDK]

You position has implied that when women express a greviance, it’s men’s fault and it’s authentic. And if men express a greviance, it’s men’s fault, and it’s baseless.

Wrong.
my position is and remains that men cannot blame women for their own sins and vice versa. What Catholic men and women ought to do is not wage war on each other but understand that we are fighting against forces and principalities in the spiritual realm. When we talk about the tragedies of modern society its not the fault of any one gender but the fault of the spirit of death that pervades the whole culture while true Christians are so eager to fight each other instead of fighting that spirit. This is exactly what the devil wants. What one needs to start with however is to look at one self, become a good person who fulfills the calling of Christ and becomes a strong role model for society and ones own children. That means… a man should teach his boys not to be shuvanists and a woman should teach her daughters not to be feminists.

Maleshuvanism and militant feminism are distortions that are based on sicknesses in th soul. Both are equally to blame for many of the problems today. And both are defined by selfishness and a felt need (sometimes legitimate, sometimes not) to protect onself against being supressed or used by the other gender. Anxiety comes from a basic lack of trust that has come about through centuries of humiliation.
Before people really admit their own sins and the sins of their own gender there can be no reconciliation.
As a woman I am happy that John Paul 2. admitted the sins comitted through history against women and he apologized for them. Men like John Paul thus sets a standard from where people can move forward as equals that respect each other.

 

[ac_claire]

As a woman I am happy that John Paul 2. admitted the sins comitted through history against women and he apologized for them. Men like John Paul thus sets a standard from where people can move forward as equals that respect each other.

See, here’s another woman’s position: This apology meant nothing to me because, although I believe the Holy Father spoke in sincerity, the truth is that a.) I have never been hindered from doing anything I felt called to do because I’m a woman, and b.) these “apologies” are so obviously politically correct maneuvers.

Again, I’m not at all doubting the Holy Father’s own sincerity. I think he did the best he could with it. But it’s not like he woke up in the middle of the night crushed by the injustice of decades of sexism and just had to make things right with an entire sex, while the media watched and recorded it…

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I agree, especially about this so-called “golden era”…The only people I ever hear talking about it are feminists and/or modernists apparently looking for a good straw man to help pad their arguments.

Absolutely. There is a concerted attack on all things good.

Men are bumbling idiots. Women are smart, strong, and far more competent than men. Even children are smarter and more capable.

Look at ANY current television show—or any current ad selling any kind of product. This portrayal of men as incompetent fools is not by accident. Not with billions of dollars at stake.

 

[whatevergirl]

A correction that bothers me and should others when they hear it because the Church clearly speaks agains the incorrect use of the terms here:
There is no such thing as an EEM. If you are speaking about what I believe you mean then you mean EMHC - Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. Only the clergy are “Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion”. The term Eucharistic Minister is reserved solely for the clergy because they are the true ministers of the Eucharist. We are extras asked to help the presiding clergy. This a perfect example of why I prefer Eastern Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism over the Latin Rite. This is exactly the issue I had when I left the Church many years ago before coming back in the past couple of years. I came back kicking and screaming though and knew that eventually I’d have to deal with all of those women that lead me astray within the Church and the lame men who followed them, spineless to stand up to them…including the clergy.

Far too many men have been swept away from the doors of ministry. I believe that there is a correlation between women controlled ministries in the Church now and the dwindling numbers to the priesthood and religious life. Women want control now and men are trying to be respectful to the point of self mutilation, cutting their own throats to show women they love them and care…sacrificing their lives, and even their faith because they have too in order to survive. I wrote a lot on this in depth but it was too much to post and obviously would allow it. This is a debate that needs to take place among the bishops more to restore the dignity of the man as it once existed…Of course without some of the other twisted male thinking though.

I love women, but I also love men. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ. But men need to regain their dignity and step up to the plate to accept a more active role in the Church community and the Church needs to insure that men can afford to support their Catholic families in those roles. Stop making them low paying jobs so that only women can afford to take them.

Thanks for the term correction (eem) I have always been confused on that! I don’t know what you mean, by ‘stop making them take low paying jobs…’ I don’t make men do anything, so not sure why that comment was directed at me.

 

[whatevergirl]

Absolutely. There is a concerted attack on all things good.

Men are bumbling idiots. Women are smart, strong, and far more competent than men. Even children are smarter and more capable.

Look at ANY current television show—or any current ad selling any kind of product. This portrayal of men as incompetent fools is not by accident. Not with billions of dollars at stake.

*Oh, I hate those ads! The ones where men are cowering down, and women are shaking their finger at them, as if they were children. It is sad that men are being marginalized like this… My 16 yr old son even notices it, and he said it seems like men are thought of as stupid now, mom. It saddens me. *

 

[Jwlynas]

I think religion is relatively fine from the attacks of feminism until the day you have to start saying “A-wo-men” after the Lords Prayers.

Blame Hitler for feminism. If not for WW2 women would have never been brought into the workplaces fully and taught of life without men, and of how they are as capable if not more so than men at manual labour. A week after that Chivalry died on the front lines, and its been down hill ever since.

…Ahem, Serious time.

Women are not in charge of the bedroom, merely of their own lions. As you in turn are in charge of yours. If a woman doesn’t wish to procreate and you do, then its your responsibility to bring her around to your viewpoint. Romance the pants off of her, and while her pants are off… nudge nudge, wink wink, know-what-I-mean, say no more, say no MORE

 

[whatevergirl]

Wrong.
my position is and remains that men cannot blame women for their own sins and vice versa. What Catholic men and women ought to do is not wage war on each other but understand that we are fighting against forces and principalities in the spiritual realm. When we talk about the tragedies of modern society its not the fault of any one gender but the fault of the spirit of death that pervades the whole culture while true Christians are so eager to fight each other instead of fighting that spirit. This is exactly what the devil wants. What one needs to start with however is to look at one self, become a good person who fulfills the calling of Christ and becomes a strong role model for society and ones own children. That means… a man should teach his boys not to be shuvanists and a woman should teach her daughters not to be feminists.

Maleshuvanism and militant feminism are distortions that are based on sicknesses in th soul. Both are equally to blame for many of the problems today. And both are defined by selfishness and a felt need (sometimes legitimate, sometimes not) to protect onself against being supressed or used by the other gender. Anxiety comes from a basic lack of trust that has come about through centuries of humiliation.
Before people really admit their own sins and the sins of their own gender there can be no reconciliation.
As a woman I am happy that John Paul 2. admitted the sins comitted through history against women and he apologized for them. Men like John Paul thus sets a standard from where people can move forward as equals that respect each other.

---

I agree, Grace…if women weren’t so repressed as if they were mere property back ‘in the day,’ the revenge factor of feminism (as I post above a page or so back) wouldn’t have come into play. I am not a feminist, but I’m for equal treatment of women, women not being considered property in our society, and women being allowed the right to vote, and earn an honest wage. But, radical feminism crept in, the pendulum has swung completely in the opposite direction, and now men are being marginalized. Why can’t there be a balance? Neither sex repressed or held down…neither sex marginalized??
I believe my marriage has a happy balance…my husband is the spiritual head of household…he is the MAN of the house. I am a woman, and I have my own individual role that I play…and to mix the two up, to start marginalizing one another, would make for a bad marriage…and thus…as we can see…an imbalanced society. ***

 

[whatevergirl]

I think religion is relatively fine from the attacks of feminism until the day you have to start saying “A-wo-men” after the Lords Prayers.

Blame Hitler for feminism. If not for WW2 women would have never been brought into the workplaces fully and taught of life without men, and of how they are as capable if not more so than men at manual labour. A week after that Chivalry died on the front lines, and its been down hill ever since.

…Ahem, Serious time.

Women are not in charge of the bedroom, merely of their own lions. As you in turn are in charge of yours. If a woman doesn’t wish to procreate and you do, then its your responsibility to bring her around to your viewpoint. Romance the pants off of her, and while her pants are off… nudge nudge, wink wink, know-what-I-mean, say no more, say no MORE

*** lol

You mean loins, right? Not lions. ***

 

[GraceDK]

---

I agree, Grace…if women weren’t so repressed as if they were mere property back ‘in the day,’ the revenge factor of feminism (as I post above a page or so back) wouldn’t have come into play. I am not a feminist, but I’m for equal treatment of women, women not being considered property in our society, and women being allowed the right to vote, and earn an honest wage. But, radical feminism crept in, the pendulum has swung completely in the opposite direction, and now men are being marginalized. Why can’t there be a balance? Neither sex repressed or held down…neither sex marginalized??
I believe my marriage has a happy balance…my husband is the spiritual head of household…he is the MAN of the house. I am a woman, and I have my own individual role that I play…and to mix the two up, to start marginalizing one another, would make for a bad marriage…and thus…as we can see…an imbalanced society. ***

Thank you. Nice to see this…
I don’t know if men are marginalised in America, because although I have been there severel times I have never met a man who seemed marginalised or uable to make the life for himself that he wished. You can say there is an imbalance there, and I can take your word for it, but I cannot say for sure. I remember when I was younger and I visited the states and it occured to me that the women overthere were much more self confident, they were speaking louder and using more humour than women do in my country … it struck me that American women have more self confidence both in the work field and as individuals. I see that as a positive thing.
. I see a death culture here in Europe that targets both women and men and I am happy to testify that I see Christian assemblies around me where men and women stick together instead of fighting each other like I see on Catholic American boards where there is the constant battles about modesty, submission, and other topics.

 

[whatevergirl]

Thank you. Nice to see this…
I don’t know if men are marginalised in America, because although I have been there severel times I have never met a man who seemed marginalised or uable to make the life for himself that he wished. You can say there is an imbalance there, and I can take your word for it, but I cannot say for sure. I remember when I was younger and I visited the states and it occured to me that the women overthere were much more self confident, they were speaking louder and using more humour than women do in my country … it struck me that American women have more self confidence both in the work field and as individuals. I see that as a positive thing.
. I see a death culture here in Europe that targets both women and men and I am happy to testify that I see Christian assemblies around me where men and women stick together instead of fighting each other like I see on Catholic American boards where there is the constant battles about modesty, submission, and other topics.

I agree with your last statement (and also agree that being a confident, strong woman is a good thing)…I just have one question, when did men and women draw lines in the sand, and join different teams? As Christian brothers and sisters, we should all be working towards the same goal. To serve God.

 

[GraceDK]

I agree with your last statement (and also agree that being a confident, strong woman is a good thing)…I just have one question, when did men and women draw lines in the sand, and join different teams? As Christian brothers and sisters, we should all be working towards the same goal. To serve God.

Dear sister in Jesus…
Interesting question… when were the lines drawn in the sand,
My answer is: When Adam pointed at Eve and said: “IT WAS THE WOMAN THAT YOU PLACED WITH ME THAT DID THIS!!!”
There the different teams were drawn. Adam, in blaming Eve was not only blaming Eve, but even also balming God Hilself for Adam’s sin. This behaviour which is the first symptom of the fall, is still as alive today as the other symptoms, which are sin, disease and death.
It’s a Christian duty to take repsonsibility of one’s own actions and sins. Then there can be confession and forgiveness and a future of peace. When people refuse to do this for any reason, they are not healed nor humbled, and neither are the people that have been hurt in the process.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

*** lol

You mean loins, right? Not lions. ***

thanks whatevergirl

not being a native English speaker… I just didn’t understand… what had the lions to do with women…

 

[whatevergirl]

Dear sister in Jesus…
Interesting question… when were the lines drawn in the sand,
My answer is: When Adam pointed at Eve and said: “IT WAS THE WOMAN THAT YOU PLACED WITH ME THAT DID THIS!!!”
There the different teams were drawn. Adam, in blaming Eve was not only blaming Eve, but even also balming God Hilself for Adam’s sin. This behaviour which is the first symptom of the fall, is still as alive today as the other symptoms, which are sin, disease and death.
It’s a Christian duty to take repsonsibility of one’s own actions and sins. Then there can be confession and forgiveness and a future of peace. When people refuse to do this for any reason, they are not healed nor humbled, and neither are the people that have been hurt in the process.

Grace, I think we are likeminded in this…so true! Your insight is accurate, I think. God also warned that there would be a rift between man and woman, because of that one event in time, too. Nothing short of fascinating.