S
Slaney
Guest
Off course Catholics believe Mary is God, Joseph was a wood carver and Jesus was her helper…you don’t believe this because it sounds ridiculous… ? same as the title of this post…
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D
De_Montfort
Guest
The whole almost automatic “caution flags” is a bit much if you ask me. It’s ok to love and have great devotion to Mary. I have yet to meet a person who puts Mary above God or equal to Him. In fact since She has crushed all heresy I don’t see how one can fall into error.
When we love Mary, we are loving CHRIST in Her. Maybe the deep union between Jesus and Mary is not understood. I find the “caution flags” off the bat are a bit counterproductive. We are all called to have geniune devotion to Mary.
So what the Church speaks about Marian devotion, and what is said around here are COMPLETELY different. I personally listen and trust the Church that Christ founded
When we love Mary, we are loving CHRIST in Her. Maybe the deep union between Jesus and Mary is not understood. I find the “caution flags” off the bat are a bit counterproductive. We are all called to have geniune devotion to Mary.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651118_apostolicam-actuositatem_en.html
So what the Church speaks about Marian devotion, and what is said around here are COMPLETELY different. I personally listen and trust the Church that Christ founded
Mark121359
Well-known member
But you’ve been on a lot of these Marian threads and have to admit, there have been a lot of claims of Catholics worshipping Mary. I’m not singling out Pauline on this matter. It’s just that a lot of people seem to have this ability to read someone’s heart and cast judgements which I find deeply disturbing indeed! I mean, who but Christ has that ability?
Mark121359
Well-known member
I agree with this. I don’t hide the fact of having deep devotion to Mary, but I hope I’ve never come off as ever being critical of anyone that does not have any particular devotion to her. Because that would be unacceptable! That’s their business not mine.So who’s judging now?..
Seriously - there are those who struggle with the various forms, levels, types and expressions of Marion devotion. I’ve seen it from both sides of the fence. I’ve seen things that fit your description above, and I’ve seen the opposite, where if one does not a deep and intense devotion to Mary they are looked as just this side of being a heretic.
In both cases the views show a narrowness of outlook and unchristian attitude that frankly I think our Lady would find offensive.
Peace, Mark
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PaulinePresbytr
Guest
The numbers are much smaller than what anti-catholics make them out to be. I have no way of quantitating it but if I were to take a guess id say probably around a few thousand people, which would make up a thousandth of a percentile of baptized catholics
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Arthropod
Guest
Yes, some roman catholics worship Mary, and with official vatican sanction.
St. Ligouri:
Even if I am wrong about official vatican sanction, if the RCC canonises someone, then that infallibly means they are in heaven, and infallibly means they have not endorsed any heresy except through invincible ignorance. If someone is a RCC doctor, then they cannot be invincibly ignorant.
Upshot: Rome infallibly says this is not heresy.
If this isn’t Mary worship, nothing is, this type of prayer should be devoted to God alone. This is a breach of the first and second commandment.
St. Ligouri:
This can be found in a book called “the glories of mary”, penned by Dr. St. Ligouri, and I understand it has official vatican sanction.O, Mother of my God, and my Lady Mary: as a beggar, all wounded and sore, presents himself before a great queen, so do I present myself before you, who are the Queen of heaven and earth. From the lofty throne on which you sit, disdain not, I implore you, to cast your eyes on me, a poor sinner. God has made you so rich that you might assist the poor, and has constituted you Queen of Mercy in order that you might relieve the miserable. Behold me then, and pity me: behold me and abandon me not, until you see me changed from a sinner into a saint. I know well that I merit nothing; that I deserve, on account of my ingratitude, to be deprived of the graces that, through your means, I have already received from God. But you, who are the Queen of Mercy, seek not merits, but miseries, in order to help the needy. But who is more needy than I? O, exalted Virgin, well do I know that you, who are Queen of the universe, are already my queen; yet am I determined to dedicate myself more especially to your service, in order that you may dispose of me as you please. Therefore do I address you in the words of St. Bonaventure: “Do govern me, O my Queen, and leave me not to myself.” Command me: employ me as you will, and chastise me when I do not obey; for the chastisements that come from your hands will be to me pledges of salvation. I would rather be your servant than the ruler of the earth. I am yours; save me. Accept me, O Mary, for your own, and as yours, take charge of my salvation. I will no longer be mine; to you do I give myself. If, during the time past I have served you ill, and lost so many occasions of honoring you, for the future I will be one of your most loving and faithful servants. I am determined that from this day forward no one will surpass me in honoring and loving you,) my most amiable Queen. This I promise; and this, with your help, I hope to execute. Amen.
Even if I am wrong about official vatican sanction, if the RCC canonises someone, then that infallibly means they are in heaven, and infallibly means they have not endorsed any heresy except through invincible ignorance. If someone is a RCC doctor, then they cannot be invincibly ignorant.
Upshot: Rome infallibly says this is not heresy.
If this isn’t Mary worship, nothing is, this type of prayer should be devoted to God alone. This is a breach of the first and second commandment.
D
De_Montfort
Guest
Nothing in that quote is “worship”
Yes He is a Doctor of the Church and a great teacher. Read close what you quote. He is only asking Mary to help him, to “take charge of my salvation” not “you are my salvation”
Big Difference!
Mary is a perfect striaght path to Jesus and as Our Mother whom Christ commanded from the Cross before He died, gave Her to us, to take care of all our needs!
Rest easy, there is no commandments broken or any heresy in what you quote,
A
Arthropod
Guest
What about the second underline bit? That ‘no one will surpass me in honnoring and loving you’? That means you love and honor Mary with every fibre of your being, with all you heart and all your soul and all your mind and all your strength, in breach of the commandment. Mary is a creature and not the creator, and such devotion belongs to God alone.Nothing in that quote is “worship”
Yes He is a Doctor of the Church and a great teacher. Read close what you quote. He is only asking Mary to help him, to “take charge of my salvation” not “you are my salvation”
Big Difference!
Mary is a perfect striaght path to Jesus and as Our Mother whom Christ commanded from the Cross before He died, gave Her to us, to take care of all our needs!
Rest easy, there is no commandments broken or any heresy in what you quote,
EDIT: And when did Mary become all knowing, that she is aware of everyone on earth who prays this prayer to her?
J
JM3
Guest
You would do well to learn what the Church teaches.
CCC 971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs… This very special devotion … differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515
“special devotion” and “adoration” are both definitions of worship.
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19740202_marialis-cultus_en.html
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JM3
Guest
So, if I tell my wife that she is my only love, then I am offending God? I don’t think this is what Jesus taught.
Mary is aware, because God makes her aware. You should not judge God for what He has given to His beloved.
D
De_Montfort
Guest
Everything given to Mary is unfailingly given to Christ. Mary is not our goal or our final end, that is Jesus Christ. Mary is a “path” to Him. The soul with Mary share the same goal, Jesus! When we love Mary, we love Christ IN Her. So if we give anything to Her (our body and soul) then it is given to Jesus. We belong entirely to Jesus through Her. “What is given to the Mother, redounds to the Son.”
And Mary being the Masterpiece of God, knew on earth and still in heaven knows best to bring about God’s greater glory. She gives more glory to God then any angel or saint that has existed or will exist. Her love for God is pure, She exists only for Him. When we praise Her, or love Her, or honor Her, or give any gift to Her, then God recieves it from the hands of the Queen of Heaven.
So it is a tender way of loving our Lord, because She is perfect and knows the secrets and holds the keys to God’s heart, we are loving Him the most tender way we can. And also following Sacred Scipture, which Christ states if one hates his life, he will save it, and to deny ourselves, and if the grain of wheat fall,and die will produce fruit. It is a calling of the Gospel, we deny ourselves and put everything in Mary’s care and wisdom, and love God through Her in the most tender embrace!
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Arthropod
Guest
I am not judging God in the least. I am questioning whether God has, in fact, done that.
C
chid
Guest
I believe that 99.9 % of catholics do not and never have worshiped anyone but The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Baptists in particular always say this, but it is not true that Catholics worship mary or statues. I am sure that that some misguided, so called Catholics do worship Mary and statues and all sorts of things. If they do they are anathema.
A statue is a only symbol of the reality that it depicts, a saint, Christ, like a picture of your mother, father and family. Now The Eucharist, is the reality that it depicts. So if you see a catholic kneeling before the Eucharist, it is an act or worship. So when you see a Catholic kneeling before a statue, some people do and some do not, it is not an act of worship, but a act of reverence, respect for the reality that the statue portrays. This a person that lived his life for Christ and may have even died as a martyr. So for the last time, Baptists and non Catholics that say Catholics worship mary and statues is a fabrication and perpetuated lie.
Remember now, God is not against statues or Gold. He ordered the mercy seat, the arch of the covenant, to be adorned with two Golden angels with wings to be looking at each other. Solomons temple was also adorned with statues of animals and trees. Get your history strait.
A statue is a only symbol of the reality that it depicts, a saint, Christ, like a picture of your mother, father and family. Now The Eucharist, is the reality that it depicts. So if you see a catholic kneeling before the Eucharist, it is an act or worship. So when you see a Catholic kneeling before a statue, some people do and some do not, it is not an act of worship, but a act of reverence, respect for the reality that the statue portrays. This a person that lived his life for Christ and may have even died as a martyr. So for the last time, Baptists and non Catholics that say Catholics worship mary and statues is a fabrication and perpetuated lie.
Remember now, God is not against statues or Gold. He ordered the mercy seat, the arch of the covenant, to be adorned with two Golden angels with wings to be looking at each other. Solomons temple was also adorned with statues of animals and trees. Get your history strait.
C
chid
Guest
Remeber, the flesh and blood that died on the cross for our sins, was given to Jesus by Mary.
J
JRKH
Guest
J
JRKH
Guest
De,The whole almost automatic “caution flags” is a bit much if you ask me. It’s ok to love and have great devotion to Mary. I have yet to meet a person who puts Mary above God or equal to Him. In fact since She has crushed all heresy I don’t see how one can fall into error.
When we love Mary, we are loving CHRIST in Her. Maybe the deep union between Jesus and Mary is not understood. I find the “caution flags” off the bat are a bit counterproductive. We are all called to have geniune devotion to Mary.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651118_apostolicam-actuositatem_en.html
So what the Church speaks about Marian devotion, and what is said around here are COMPLETELY different. I personally listen and trust the Church that Christ founded
Good quote.
I cannot speak for all here who put up “caution flags”, but in my case…
It began as a matter of posting comfort to those looking into the Church or having just converted. These people were having trouble with the usual issues i.e. praying to saints and to Mary, and also with the particular veneration of Mary.
To these people I counseled patience and that they should not feel pushed on the matter. In other words, the same sort of advice and comfort that our Blessed Mother would give to a troubled child.
If I became involved in deeper more intense discussion on the matter it was generally because someone had taken issue with the advice I offered to others. And De, I’m not “calling you out” on this. Even though you and I have gone round and round on this I believe we have come to a good understanding.
As for being able to see where one might fall into error…Perhaps, as you suggest, they really can’t…I don’t know.
But each person must work within their own comfort zone. As an analogy…
I am fearful of heights. My friend is not. Standing on a roof, he is able to just walk right up to the edge, with no fear that he will fall. As I approach the edge, I become uncomfortable, dizzy, have to sit down etc.
Now - over time, I do become more comfortable and am able to do most - but not all - of the things my friend can do…l but it takes time…
Respect between my friend and I means that I do not ridicule him for getting near the edge, and he does not ridicule me for being more cautious.
Again - I’m not accusing you my friend…just offering thoughts for the many who will read this thread.
Peace
James
J
JRKH
Guest
I do not mean to offend, but I can only state that there have been claims that Catholics worship Mary. I cannot really say that there have been a “lot”. but regardless…Isn’t this what the forums are for? To discuss? To answer questions? To correct error and misunderstanding?
It seems to me that every “accusation” affords an opportunity for evangelization. So far from being a negative - if there have indeed been a “Lot of accusations” that means there have been a lot of accusations corrected.
That said…
Christ left us in charge of each other. We are the Ekklesia and according to Mt 18:15-18 that means we are to admonish one another. So - on what basis do we do this? First of all there is appearance - - or perhaps comments that are made that seem wrong. From this proceeds discussion and (hopefully) greater understanding between believers.
I am very glad to here this Mark.I agree with this. I don’t hide the fact of having deep devotion to Mary, but I hope I’ve never come off as ever being critical of anyone that does not have any particular devotion to her. Because that would be unacceptable! That’s their business not mine.
Peace, Mark
In truth, it has only happened to me a couple of times. So it isn’t like it is a common thing around here.
Peace
James
J
JRKH
Guest
I agree that the underlined sentences can be troubling…IF taken out of context.
However - if looked at within the context of how this person understands Mary - the problems diminish.
Let’s look at what is said before he gets to his dedication.
Originally Posted by St. Ligouri
O, Mother of my God, and my Lady Mary: as a beggar, all wounded and sore, presents himself before a great queen, so do I present myself before you, who are the Queen of heaven and earth. From the lofty throne on which you sit, disdain not, I implore you, to cast your eyes on me, a poor sinner. God has made you so rich that you might assist the poor, and (God) has constituted you Queen of Mercy in order that you might relieve the miserable. Behold me then, and pity me: behold me and abandon me not, until you see me changed from a sinner into a saint. I know well that I merit nothing; that I deserve, on account of my ingratitude, to be deprived of the graces that, through your means, I have already received from God. But you, who are the Queen of Mercy, seek not merits, but miseries, in order to help the needy. But who is more needy than I? O, exalted Virgin, well do I know that you, who are Queen of the universe, are already my queen; yet am I determined to dedicate myself more especially to your service, in order that you may dispose of me as you please.
So - first we see him distinguish her from God. She is “Mother of God” Theotokos…the God bearer.
Then he describes her in terms of what “God has made her” and what God has given to her and “constituted” her to be and do…This is God’s work in the view of the writer…Not Mary’s.
“Until you see me changed”…Mary does not change him…God does…
"Graces…received from God. the writer sees Mary not as the source but as a channel.
So - it is from a knowledge and acknowledgement of Mary’s proper place in the order of grace that the writer makes his dedication. This understanding throws an entirely new light on what the writer then promises.
Let’s look…
“I am yours; save me. Accept me, O Mary, for your own, and as yours, take charge of my salvation. I will no longer be mine; to you do I give myself.”
So - is he offering himself to a god? No He is offering himself to be a servant of the servant of God - and queen of heaven who, he has already acknowledged, is only what God has made her.
Rather - in this he is imploring Mary to come to his aide for he is, by his own reckoning a poor and miserable sinner. Then we have the final comment that troubles you.
“no one will surpass me in honoring and loving you”
You have expressed the concern that…
But is it a breach of the commandment?
Jesus tells us that we are to Love our neighbor as ourselves and that this is the second great commandment. So - How well do we love ourselves? And how would loving Mary in this way be in conflict with this great commandment?
Yes - we are to Love God First and Foremost…We are to Love what God loves and Hate what God hates.
Do you think that God, in each of the three persons of the Trinity, Loves Mary?
How much do you think that God Loves Mary?
Would we please God if we Love Mary as He does?
Would we please God if we fail to love Mary as He does?
Just some thoughts to ponder.
Now - that said - The kind of language that is used in the quoted prayer and dedication is not something that I am personally comfortable with. So I can see how others would find it uncomfortable too. And for such people…don’t pray it. We each embrace our Heavenly Mother in our own ways.
But in regards to that which you posted…one needs to try to understand the heart that wrote it and to see exactly what is believed and is being conveyed. Pointing to the last couple of lines without first digesting the principles on which it is based does an injustice to the writer.
I hope this is helpful to your understanding these matters.
Peace
James
P
PaulinePresbytr
Guest
I’m not saying this is something which is promoted by the church, because it is absolutely not. In an organization of 1,000,000,000 youre bound to get at least 1 person who does, but as I said this is in direct opposition to catholic doctrine. I’m not equating veneration and worship, I’m distinguishing between them.
J
JM3
Guest
What God has done for the Blessed Virgin cannot be comprehended by anyone but God.
Are you saying that Jesus teaches hate?
What about this,
Matthew 15:4 - For God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever speaks evil of father or mother must surely die.’
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