Are Catholicism and protestantism different religions?

[7_Sorrows]

Theology of salvation. The confessional Anglican and the confessional (1689) Baptist both believe in a Reformed understanding of salvation.

Thank you. I had seen the word before, but forgot its meaning…
What is the Reformed understanding of salvation as opposed to the Catholic understanding?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Yes. Different Religions. I’m using the definition of religion as practice of faith. Liturgical religion with Apostolic faith and practices and protestantism’s wide latitude of anything goes are vastly different entities. One may find in the wide swath that is protestantism, some groups with resemblences to true religion, but this is mere preference of an individual or group or sheer coincidence.

 

[Protestor]

I think this would depend on how you define religion.

 

[rcwitness]

Religion is sometimes defined as belief in a particular deity. In that respect a great many Protestants have the same religion as us, the worship of the Triune God who revealed himself most completely in the Incarnate Word.

But a religion is more aptly defined as an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules which promote a particular way of life in service to that deity. It might admit of some diversity among different cultures, but always in harmony and without conflicting truth claims. In this respect, Protestantism cannot be considered one religion, let alone the same as ours. If we say that Protestantism is the same religion as ours, then we admit that God revealed many conflicting truths; in short, we make God a liar and sower of confusion, which is blasphemy.

I think this would depend on how you define religion.

These are very good points.

 

[Tomster]

Thank you. I had seen the word before, but forgot its meaning…
What is the Reformed understanding of salvation as opposed to the Catholic understanding?

To summarize Aquinas’ teaching on what is necessary for salvation:

To be saved:

(1) A person must live in union with Christ and with the Church, which is his Mystical Body.

(2) This union with Christ and the Church is fully achieved here on earth through the Eucharist.

(3) The reception of Baptism begins a person’s union with Christ but is directed to the Eucharist as its completion and perfection.

(4) For those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of all or part of God’s salvific plan in Christ, their efforts to live a good life in cooperation with grace and according to the dictates of conscience is to be seen as an implied desire for union with Christ, and therefore for the Eucharist, which is Christ.

 

[Tomster]

Yes. Different Religions. I’m using the definition of religion as practice of faith. Liturgical religion with Apostolic faith and practices and protestantism’s wide latitude of anything goes are vastly different entities. One may find in the wide swath that is protestantism, some groups with resemblences to true religion, but this is mere preference of an individual or group or sheer coincidence.

 

[rcwitness]

To summarize Aquinas’ teaching on what is necessary for salvation:

To be saved:

(1) A person must live in union with Christ and with the Church, which is his Mystical Body.

(2) This union with Christ and the Church is fully achieved here on earth through the Eucharist.

(3) The reception of Baptism begins a person’s union with Christ but is directed to the Eucharist as its completion and perfection.

(4) For those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of all or part of God’s salvific plan in Christ, their efforts to live a good life in cooperation with grace and according to the dictates of conscience is to be seen as an implied desire for union with Christ, and therefore for the Eucharist, which is Christ.

Interesting!

I’ve often tried to articulate what he has stated in #4, but not as well as this!

Where in his writings is this found?

 

[Tomster]

I think this would depend on how you define religion.

Generally speaking, religion is a bond, a moral union between God and men, as is evident from the history of religions and from the consideration of the natural relationship of the rational creature to the Creator.

Subjectively, religion is a voluntary disposition of the soul to recognize God as the Supreme Being and Lord of the universe, and to pay Him due worship. Objectively, it is the whole of truths and principles, by which our life is ordered and directed to God, supreme End.

 

[Peter_J]

Addendum: It should not be thought, of course, that the votes in the poll indicate anything in a definitive manner. For example, when asked what religion I am, each of these answers

1. 
   *]Christian
   *]catholic
   *]Catholic
   *]Melkite Catholic
   
   would be acceptable, arranged here in order of increasing specificity. (As previously noted, 2 and 3 aren’t interchangeable, since I’m using Catholic to mean ICWR, and catholic to include Orthodox, Catholics, Anglicans, and Lutherans.)

 

[andrewstx]

Ugh. One of the reasons I’m not all that keen on the term “Anglican”. Reformed Protestant according to the Reformed Protestant Church of England’s Reformed and Protestant formularies. Divorce yourself from that, and the term “Anglican” means whatever you want it to mean.

I prefer to root the term in history.

I am no longer an Anglican, but I refuse to let this slide past as the truth. The C of E and the Anglican communion are NOT five point TULIP Calvinists.
Even though indifferently believes that they are.

There was a brief time, very brief when Calvinism held sway in England, and it was gone nearly as quickly as it started.

The C of E blends Protestant with Catholic and always has, often depending on who was on the throne. Edward Tudor was more on the Protestant side. (at least his regents were) and Charles Stuart was much more Catholic.

Why don’t the “Anglican” Calvinists go back to their spiritual home … Geneva, or Glasgow?

 

[andrewstx]

To me Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox all follow the same religion. CHRISTIANITY.
There are some differences. But I think of Christianity as a three sided coin.

I know a mathematical impossibility. But go with my idea anyway.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Why don’t the “Anglican” Calvinists go back to their spiritual home … Geneva, or Glasgow?

Most of them try fiercely to bring Geneva to Canterbury, as they have for several hundred years. They gave up on Wittenberg long ago (fortunately).

 

[schaeffer]

different sects of the same religion

most major religions have various sects

 

[andrewstx]

Most of them try fiercely to bring Geneva to Canterbury, as they have for several hundred years. They gave up on Wittenberg long ago (fortunately).

Actually the 39 articles are as much Wittenberg as they are Geneva. The people who wrote the articles were trying to make everyone happy at once. Maybe that is where motley comes in?

The articles are in the back of the 1979 BCP, as an optional “historic document”. They are not an and surely not the Anglican confession. Anglicans have no confession, it is each man for himself. And that is why I left the Episcopal church.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Actually the 39 articles are as much Wittenberg as they are Geneva. The people who wrote the articles were trying to make everyone happy at once. Maybe that is where motley comes in?

The articles are in the back of the 1979 BCP, as an optional “historic document”. They are not an and surely not the Anglican confession. Anglicans have no confession, it is each man for himself. And that is why I left the Episcopal church.

I’ve always gotten that sense. I won’t intentionally criticize them, but it seems to me that it tries very hard to be a via media but ultimately fails at being either Catholic or Protestant. If Protestant is summed up to mean disagreement with the papacy (I don’t think it is, but one could make that argument), then even Orthodoxy succeeds more at a via media than Anglicanism does.

 

[Indifferently]

Actually the 39 articles are as much Wittenberg as they are Geneva. The people who wrote the articles were trying to make everyone happy at once. Maybe that is where motley comes in?

The articles are in the back of the 1979 BCP, as an optional “historic document”. They are not an and surely not the Anglican confession. Anglicans have no confession, it is each man for himself. And that is why I left the Episcopal church.

The 1979 “Prayer Book” of the Episcopal communion would of course relegate a confessional document to the “historical” section, because any statement of orthodoxy is unwelcome in that church - let alone one that affirms God’s sovereignty, man’s helplessness, and the necessity of faith in the finished work of Christ, wrought in man by the grace of God, to achieve salvation.

 

[Indifferently]

7 Sorrows:

• Roman Catholicism teaches that baptism is the instrument of justification. Reformed confessions teach that faith alone is the instrument of justification, and baptism is the sign and seal.
• Roman Catholicism teaches that God’s grace can be effectively resisted by someone who wills not to be saved. Protestantism teaches that all men will not to be saved, until they are effectually called by God, in which case their disposition towards God changes. This is sometimes called “irresistible grace” or more accurately “effectual calling”.
• Roman Catholicism generally teaches that God elects and reprobates according to what he knows in advance people will choose. So he “elects” you because he knows you will co-operate with his grace. He “reprobates” you based on his knowledge of you rejecting co-operation with his grace. Protestantism teaches that God elects some to salvation despite their sins, and because of the work of Jesus Christ, and reprobates others in just punishment for their rebellion and sin. i.e. RCism - God chose us because we choose him. Protestantism - we choose God because he chose us.
• RCism teaches that justification is a process, begun in baptism and increased (a transformation of the individual soul) by an infusion of grace throughout the life of the believer. This is accomplished by participation in the sacraments, and if we “make shipwreck” of our faith by “mortal (serious) sin” we can regain it by the sacrament of penance. If this process of subjective transformation of the sinner is not complete by death, such that perfect righteousness “inheres” in the believer, then the believer will spend time in Purgatory to make up the difference. Protestants including Anglicans teach that justification is the reckoning or imputation of the righteousness of Christ to the account of the believer - Christ’s righteousness reckoned to us (God counts us righteous, although we are not) and our sins reckoned to him (God counted Jesus a sinner at the cross, and punished him, in our place). This is called “the great exchange”.

This is a brief introduction to the soteric differences between the Protestant and Roman Catholic views. As you can see these are radically different religions.

 

[Seraphim73]

7 Sorrows:

• Roman Catholicism teaches that baptism is the instrument of justification. Reformed confessions teach that faith alone is the instrument of justification, and baptism is the sign and seal.
• Roman Catholicism teaches that God’s grace can be effectively resisted by someone who wills not to be saved. Protestantism teaches that all men will not to be saved, until they are effectually called by God, in which case their disposition towards God changes. This is sometimes called “irresistible grace” or more accurately “effectual calling”.
• Roman Catholicism generally teaches that God elects and reprobates according to what he knows in advance people will choose. So he “elects” you because he knows you will co-operate with his grace. He “reprobates” you based on his knowledge of you rejecting co-operation with his grace. Protestantism teaches that God elects some to salvation despite their sins, and because of the work of Jesus Christ, and reprobates others in just punishment for their rebellion and sin. i.e. RCism - God chose us because we choose him. Protestantism - we choose God because he chose us.
• RCism teaches that justification is a process, begun in baptism and increased (a transformation of the individual soul) by an infusion of grace throughout the life of the believer. This is accomplished by participation in the sacraments, and if we “make shipwreck” of our faith by “mortal (serious) sin” we can regain it by the sacrament of penance. If this process of subjective transformation of the sinner is not complete by death, such that perfect righteousness “inheres” in the believer, then the believer will spend time in Purgatory to make up the difference. Protestants including Anglicans teach that justification is the reckoning or imputation of the righteousness of Christ to the account of the believer - Christ’s righteousness reckoned to us (God counts us righteous, although we are not) and our sins reckoned to him (God counted Jesus a sinner at the cross, and punished him, in our place). This is called “the great exchange”.

This is a brief introduction to the soteric differences between the Protestant and Roman Catholic views. As you can see these are radically different religions.

But you both proceed from the same premises, you just come to different answers. I will say the Protestant god you portray is a sick, disgusting, monstrous god. It’s a slander. No wonder so many people try to escape Him through atheism, agnosticism and other religions.

 

[Per_Crucem]

7 Sorrows:

• Roman Catholicism teaches that baptism is the instrument of justification. Reformed confessions teach that faith alone is the instrument of justification, and baptism is the sign and seal.

Roman Catholicism teaches it, and so does St. Peter and St. Paul. Can you point to where St. Peter or Paul teach that baptism is a sign and seal?

• Roman Catholicism teaches that God’s grace can be effectively resisted by someone who wills not to be saved. Protestantism teaches that all men will not to be saved, until they are effectually called by God, in which case their disposition towards God changes. This is sometimes called “irresistible grace” or more accurately “effectual calling”.

“Protestantism” doesn’t teach this…a few German and Swiss Reformation piggy backing wackadoodles teach this. Which by the way, is contradicted by Scripture (specifically St. Stephen, who castigated the Jewish elders for resisting the Holy Spirit).

This is a brief introduction to the soteric differences between the Protestant and Roman Catholic views. As you can see these are radically different religions.

Indeed. Calvinism is a much different spirit than Christianity.

 

[Indifferently]

Seraphim - Eastern Orthodoxy is another religion entirely, denying both original guilt and the substitutionary atonement of our Lord. Another religion from both Rome and Protestantism.

Per Crucem - I was not intending to start a polemical discussion. You claim to be Lutheran, and Martin Luther taught justification by faith alone.

I’m glad you both recognize that Reformed Protestantism is a different religion from Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy however. It was a conclusion I had myself already come to.