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mrs_abbott
Guest
But they are men and it’s possible for them to error, since they are human. I would hope they never would but it’s always a possibility.
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi,
Could you please enlighten us or at least me. Im sure Ive seen it stated somewhere on the forums but I dont recall.
Thank you
R
Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
About a year or so before I became Catholic I went to a local fair that our county puts on every year. Some evangelical church had a booth with people outside saying, “take this test to see if you are getting into heaven.” I took the test and of course we all know how those things go, they give you a list of things and ask you what do you think will get you into heaven. They list all this stuff but the answer they have isn’t there on the list so everyone who isnt knowledgable about Christianity (like I wasnt) will get it wrong. I got it wrong and he went through this whole long thing about accepting Jesus Christ as you lord and savior. Then at the end he handed me a prayer that sounded a lot like the one you just read. He told me to say it, I asked why, he asked if I had a problem with praying. I said no and I said the prayer. Then when I was done he said I was saved. That was it. I was handed a prayer, didnt have any idea what it was for and I was “saved”. About a year later I joined the RCIA and became Catholic… Protestants have told me that I joined, “the whore of babylon” but why should they or even I care, I was after all “saved” at a county fair two years ago
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AlegreFe
Guest
About a year or so before I became Catholic I went to a local fair that our county puts on every year. Some evangelical church had a booth with people outside saying, “take this test to see if you are getting into heaven.” I took the test and of course we all know how those things go, they give you a list of things and ask you what do you think will get you into heaven. They list all this stuff but the answer they have isn’t there on the list so everyone who isnt knowledgable about Christianity (like I wasnt) will get it wrong. I got it wrong and he went through this whole long thing about accepting Jesus Christ as you lord and savior. Then at the end he handed me a prayer that sounded a lot like the one you just read. He told me to say it, I asked why, he asked if I had a problem with praying. I said no and I said the prayer. Then when I was done he said I was saved. That was it. I was handed a prayer, didnt have any idea what it was for and I was “saved”. About a year later I joined the RCIA and became Catholic… Protestants have told me that I joined, “the whore of babylon” but why should they or even I care, I was after all “saved” at a county fair two years ago
<-this was my first reaction when reading that last statement bolded. I’m just being honest here. That is true though. If they believe that you were “saved” at that time, then what gives? And it just seems so strange to me that anyone would think that just by saying a prayer, that you are now saved. Sorry to say, but that just sounds ridiculous to me.
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djrakowski
Guest
Please review the following references from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:But they are men and it’s possible for them to error, since they are human. I would hope they never would but it’s always a possibility.
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In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a “supernatural sense of faith” the People of God, under the guidance of the Church’s living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."417[890](javascript
penWindow(‘cr/890.htm’) The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium’s task to preserve God’s people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421
892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent"422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.
Note that there are at least two key components for a teaching to be infallible: the Pope exercises his charism of infallibility when “he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.” The implication is that infallibility is not assumed when he’s issuing statements on matters not related to faith and morals, and hasn’t done so by a definitive act.
In a sense, the charism of infallibility could be viewed as a negative protection - not tha the Pope will always be correct in everything that he says, but rather, that he won’t be incorrect - that is, he will be prevented from teaching error - when he binds the consciences of Catholics on matters of faith and morals (for the power to bind, reference Matthew 16:19).
Infallibility also fulfills the promise of Jesus that he will found a church and “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:18, NAB). Additionally, it could be viewed as a fulfillment of this promise of Jesus to the disciples: “And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:20b, NAB). At the last supper, Jesus made another striking promise to the disciples: “But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you into all truth.” (John 16:13, NAB). Without the charism of infallibility, this promise would mean nothing.
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mrs_abbott
Guest
I guess infallibility is the root of the issue I’m dealing with. I know the Church teaches that the Pope is infallible for the reasons that you previously listed. I, personally, am having trouble grasping the concept.
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djrakowski
Guest
I admit that it isn’t the easiest concept to understand, and believe me, I had to spend a TON of time on it before I was convinced enough to convert. Fortunately, there’s lots of helpful apologetics material on this very subject.
Catholic Answers has an excellent tract on Papal Infallibility, and I highly recommend John Martignoni’s Bible study on the subject, entitled Apostolic Authority and the Pope. For that matter, I recommend all of Mr. Martignoni’s talks, which are available through the website of his ministry, the Bible Christian Society.
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djrakowski
Guest
mrs_abbott, here’s another resource you may find helpful. I admit that I haven’t listened to this one yet, but I’ve watched a handful of their television programs, and they’re excellent. The ministry is called St. Michael’s Media, and they’ve done a program entitled, The Church, the same yesterday, today and forever. Considering your interest in the Bible, you may also like this one: Is That In The Bible?
Happy studying!
Happy studying!
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Ignatius
Guest
You can’t become Catholic if you’re not.
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Ignatius
Guest
You can’t become Catholic if you’re not.
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FromTheCrossroa
Guest
If someone by power of the Holy Spirit acknowledges salvation in this manner, I believe they could have been saved at that moment. I try to avoid saying yes or no on peoples salvation like the plague. Just not my call to make. Someone responding to an alter call might better be described as converted or convinced. Its what they do afterwords that determines if a true conversion or salvation took place. Christians can rightly judge someone’s continuing salvation based on the fruits of a person’s life.
That is true though. If they believe that you were “saved” at that time, then what gives? And it just seems so strange to me that anyone would think that just by saying a prayer, that you are now saved. Sorry to say, but that just sounds ridiculous to me.
I love how simple it is in the Catholic church to know salvation. I find it much easier to understand and know “for sure”. No more of this once saved always saved horse-pucky…I wont even touch predestination.
P.S. on a side note, does anyone find it funny that the “c” word that ends in “rap” is filtered but the “d” word that ends in “amn” isn’t?
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mrs_abbott
Guest
That reflects Hebrews 13:8 “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.”mrs_abbott, here’s another resource you may find helpful. I admit that I haven’t listened to this one yet, but I’ve watched a handful of their television programs, and they’re excellent. The ministry is called St. Michael’s Media, and they’ve done a program entitled, The Church, the same yesterday, today and forever. Considering your interest in the Bible, you may also like this one: Is That In The Bible?
Happy studying!
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djrakowski
Guest
Indeed! I sure hope that the host, Michael Voris, refers to that verse in the course of the talk!That reflects Hebrews 13:8 “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.”
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mrs_abbott
Guest
I’m at work right now so I’ll have to get on the computer at home and try and listen to it. I have dial-up at home so it’s a 50/50 chance I’ll be able to listen to it.
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AlegreFe
Guest
If that’s the case then you’re better off right-clicking and then clicking on “save target as” instead of just clicking and listening.I’m at work right now so I’ll have to get on the computer at home and try and listen to it. I have dial-up at home so it’s a 50/50 chance I’ll be able to listen to it.
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AlegreFe
Guest
:yup: Yes he does!! And this guy really gets you going! Woohoo!! I’ve already yelled out “AMEN!” several times already!! I’ve downloaded all the audio mp3’s already and have them on my iPod already!!mrs_abbott:
Indeed! I sure hope that the host, Michael Voris, refers to that verse in the course of the talk!
And thanks to djrakowski because I’ve never seen that website or heard of this Michael Voris person before. So thanks so much djrakowski!
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Damascus
Guest
I am kinda curious how you are going to respond to dalcent’s question All for Him.Hi,
Thank you for being kind to me.
P.S. Thanks for explaining why you dont like CARM:thumbsup:
You sorta dodged it.
J
jim1130
Guest
Are you confusing infallibility with impeccability? That is often a common mistake. Just asking.
Infallibility - Immune from fallacy or liability to error in expounding matters of faith or morals by virtue of the promise made by Christ to the Church.
Impeccability - Having no flaws; perfect.
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ALLFORHIM
Guest
Hi,
Which question so I can check it out?
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