Are Catholics easy targets?

[eucharisteo]

How do you justify trying to convert Catholics or any other group of Christian to come into your church?

 

[Nine_Two]

Most groups only distinguish between Churches insofar as different tactics are necessary to convert them.

In other words no one targets Catholics alone, they just might use a specific strategy when targeting Catholics vs. targeting other groups.

 

[shondrea]

considering how poorly catechised my generation is? we’re sitting ducks.

 

[Berean2]

How do you justify trying to convert Catholics or any other group of Christian to come into your church?

That’s an interesting (RC) way of phrasing the question, Euch, because if it were a case of, say, the Navigators or the Campus Crusaders or the IVF, they wouldn’t be trying to convert you to any particular church, but rather to Christ Himself first and foremost. (That roots in their not equating Christ with His Body, as I have read the RC does.)

From my own experience and study, it seems pretty clear that the only way a person gets converted is if they find some sort of deficiency in their present worldview/convictions. Reaching that point can be cataclysmic, or it can be a matter of the “slow frogboil.” Personally, I don’t try to convert people, mainly because I can’t stand it when JW’s and Mormons try to convert me (“Do unto others…”). I figure, if someone asks me about what makes me tick spiritually (a la Peter’s “Be prepared to give a reason for the hope within you…”), then I’ll be glad to chat with them, but even then, only as far as they want to go with it: with some folks, that might mean 10 minutes, with others, 2-3 hours.

As for the justification people might have for when they do try to convert others, there are various reasons: truly worrying about the person’s eternal welfare (relatives, spouse, cherished friends); their church tells them they’ve gotta; (ostensible) Brownie points with God; etc. (Oh, and there’s of course the case where a religious body runs the gov’t. and justifies persecuting dissenters by claiming they’re a threat to the community’s cohesiveness.) But my own conviction is: pressuring (or worse yet: manipulating) people does not bring about genuine conversion.

 

[choy]

from my observation, a lot of other Christian religions target Catholics

mainly because all protestant religions arise from seeing something “wrong” with Catholicism. so their main focus is to tell Catholics whats “wrong” with Catholicism, and get them out of there to “save” them

 

[Jehoshua]

living in a predominately protestant country there is a general bias and dislike towards catholics. Just today i had an incident where a group of people i quite liked changed a conversation i was in, to one amongst themselves insulting the Catholic Church (pedophile church, all priests are pedophiles, we should assasinate the pope) which of course i took measures in response too.

But generally frm this general sort of thing coming from a farely irreligious protestant society, Its quite obvious to me that protestantism in particular is particularly opposed to the Catholic Church and so tem specifically trying to convert catholics is not surprising.

 

[choy]

living in a predominately protestant country there is a general bias and dislike towards catholics. Just today i had an incident where a group of people i quite liked changed a conversation i was in, to one amongst themselves insulting the Catholic Church (pedophile church, all priests are pedophiles, we should assasinate the pope) which of course i took measures in response too.

But generally frm this general sort of thing coming from a farely irreligious protestant society, Its quite obvious to me that protestantism in particular is particularly opposed to the Catholic Church and so tem specifically trying to convert catholics is not surprising.

i would expect that kind of treatment in a predominantly non-Catholic country

the sad thing is in the Philippines where 80% of the population are Catholics, there are so many groups that are just on the offensive against Catholicism. and to some, its big business. the only way they can get more people in their congregation is to convert the Catholics. and almost all of them anyway are based on “doctrines” that the Catholic Church is wrong. so they attack Catholics, making false accusations, and the poorly Catechized (there’s many of them, its a poor country with not much resources for education the multitudes of Catholics) are easy prey by these religions. in fact, there’s so many Christian cults in the Philippines right now, besides the other multitude of “born-again” groups

 

[LaSalle]

considering how poorly catechised my generation is? we’re sitting ducks.

I think that about sums it up … EVERY catholic I know who converts has demonstrated very ably that they do NOT know their faith.

 

[Izdaari]

How do you justify trying to convert Catholics or any other group of Christian to come into your church?

Mmm, I don’t. I don’t look for converts amongst other Christians. Though if they ask what I believe, or what my church believes, I’ll be happy to explain it in a non-pushy way. And I’ll invite them to visit my church if they seem like they might be interested.

 

[Reuben_J]

There may be Catholics who convert to other religion but statistic show that there are many more who convert to Catholicism. The Vatican just recently on April 27 release some figure about Catholics worldwide in its new edition of the Statistical Yearbook of the Church, comprising information from 2000 to 2008.

Catholics presence in the world has grown from 1,045 billion in 2000 to 1.166 billion in 2008, an increase of 11.54 percent.

Considering the statistics in detail, number in Africa grew by 33 percent, in Europe they remains generally stable (an increase of 1.17 percent), while in Asia they increased by 15.61 percent, in Oceania by 11.39 percent and in America by 10.93 per cent.

As percentage of the total population, European Catholics represented 26.8 percent in 2000 and 24.31 percent in 2008. In America and Oceania they have remained stable, and increased slightly in Asia.

The number of Bishop in the world went up from 4,541 in 2000 to 5,002 in 2008, an increase of 10.15 percent.

The number of priests also increased slightly over the nine year period, passing from 405,178 in 2000 to 409,166 in 2008, an overall rise of 0.98 percent. There are corresponding rise especially in Africa and Asia.

 

[Padrej]

I think that about sums it up … EVERY catholic I know who converts has demonstrated very ably that they do NOT know their faith.

I actually have 4 cradle Catholics in my congregation who converted. 3 of the 4 were educated in Catholic schools and know the Catechism WELL. They left over the abuses. I am not saying the Protestants are not immune to abuses because we have them as well, it is just that it seems to many that the abuses are in the spotlight as far as the Catholic church is involved.
It seems like the 3 also have horror stories of the Catholic education from the Nuns and how mean some were. Ironically all 3 went to different Catholic schools in the region. What was the final push for one to leave was the lack of Bible studies in the Catholic church, she wanted to GROW in her faith. I have also observed that in this area where I am very FEW Catholic churches offer ANY kind of Bible study. One even made the comment that they wished Bible study was offered in the Catholic church or they would still be attending. From an outsiders point of view it seems that if Catholics want to KEEP their flocks they need to be feeding them (I believe that was one of Christ’s commands to Peter) or else they will find a greener pasture elsewhere in a Protestant church.

I as a pastor DO NOT if they have a church home want to rob them of that. If they are getting fed with me I will gladly be their shepherd, I will not enforce my faith on another.

 

[Reuben_J]

I actually have 4 cradle Catholics in my congregation who converted. 3 of the 4 were educated in Catholic schools and know the Catechism WELL. **They left over the abuses. **I am not saying the Protestants are not immune to abuses because we have them as well, it is just that it seems to many that the abuses are in the spotlight as far as the Catholic church is involved.
It seems like the 3 also have horror stories of the Catholic education from the Nuns and how mean some were. Ironically all 3 went to different Catholic schools in the region. What was the final push for one to leave was the lack of Bible studies in the Catholic church, she wanted to GROW in her faith. I have also observed that in this area where I am very FEW Catholic churches offer ANY kind of Bible study. One even made the comment that they wished Bible study was offered in the Catholic church or they would still be attending. From an outsiders point of view it seems that if Catholics want to KEEP their flocks they need to be feeding them (I believe that was one of Christ’s commands to Peter) or else they will find a greener pasture elsewhere in a Protestant church.

I as a pastor DO NOT if they have a church home want to rob them of that. If they are getting fed with me I will gladly be their shepherd, I will not enforce my faith on another.

I am a cradle Catholic. I doubt very much that this could be a reason for leaving. I doubt it and I think you did not get the actual reason, one way or the other.

Most Catholics are like any other non-Catholics - they are not that stupid. They can see a man fallen and that can happen just about anywhere under the earth’s sun. If you look at the total number of Catholic priests which I just given, the percentage is nearly negligible. We know who would like to blow this out of proportion. Even the latest case was leaked purposely by the litigating lawyer for the publicity it attracted.

You can give any reasons which are plenty for leaving the Church but the one you gives stinks and it doesn’t fool any Catholics here. Maybe you can say it with glee but we know about it. You are playing the inflaming card.

By the most part priests are still well-loved and good faithful servants of God. Catholics are frustrated and sad that such scandal happen but it is never one reason to leave the Church.

 

[puzzleannie]

How do you justify trying to convert Catholics or any other group of Christian to come into your church?

that is a very confrontational and accusatory question, to whom are you directing it? Why not ask, rather, a specific question of a specific person or group about a specific situation…

 

[Lapey]

I actually have 4 cradle Catholics in my congregation who converted. 3 of the 4 were educated in Catholic schools and know the Catechism WELL. They left over the abuses. I am not saying the Protestants are not immune to abuses because we have them as well, it is just that it seems to many that the abuses are in the spotlight as far as the Catholic church is involved.
It seems like the 3 also have horror stories of the Catholic education from the Nuns and how mean some were. Ironically all 3 went to different Catholic schools in the region. What was the final push for one to leave was the lack of Bible studies in the Catholic church, she wanted to GROW in her faith. I have also observed that in this area where I am very FEW Catholic churches offer ANY kind of Bible study. One even made the comment that they wished Bible study was offered in the Catholic church or they would still be attending. From an outsiders point of view it seems that if Catholics want to KEEP their flocks they need to be feeding them (I believe that was one of Christ’s commands to Peter) or else they will find a greener pasture elsewhere in a Protestant church.

I as a pastor DO NOT if they have a church home want to rob them of that. If they are getting fed with me I will gladly be their shepherd, I will not enforce my faith on another.

You describe exactly what others have already stated, lack of catechesis. A catholic who is not “being fed” in mass is a Catholic who has no idea what the mass is. There is no greater worship than the mass, and every mass is filled with bible study, you know, the way it was in the beginning.

Just because one was educated in a Catholic school does not mean that a person is well educated in the faith. That is very true and very unfortunate.

Most Catholics I know who have left for another denomination left because we failed to show the difference. It all looks the same and it “feels” better over there, so I am leaving. When a person learns the truth of the faith, they will never leave no matter how politically incorrect it is to remain in the Catholic Church.

St Justin Martyr said it best, “Christians make the Eucharist and the Eucharist makes Christians, there are no Christians without the Eucharist and there is no Eucharist without Christians.”

Where you find the Eucharist you find Jesus, He is my home!!!

 

[Padrej]

I am a cradle Catholic. I doubt very much that this could be a reason for leaving. I doubt it and I think you did not get the actual reason, one way or the other.

Most Catholics are like any other non-Catholics - they are not that stupid. They can see a man fallen and that can happen just about anywhere under the earth’s sun. If you look at the total number of Catholic priests which I just given, the percentage is nearly negligible. We know who would like to blow this out of proportion. Even the latest case was leaked purposely by the litigating lawyer for the publicity it attracted.

You can give any reasons which are plenty for leaving the Church but the one you gives stinks and it doesn’t fool any Catholics here. Maybe you can say it with glee but we know about it. You are playing the inflaming card.

By the most part priests are still well-loved and good faithful servants of God. Catholics are frustrated and sad that such scandal happen but it is never one reason to leave the Church.

First off let me address this issue you bring up: “You are playing the inflaming card”
If that is the impression that you received and others, that WAS NOT my intentions so please accept my apology.
To be blunt with you, you ARE NOT privy to the conversations that I have had with these persons as I have. One of them took her father to the Catholic church for mass 2 weeks ago and returned with a rather lengthy email on how the priest did not preach on the gospel or any of the other readings but rather was giving an impassioned plea to give liberally as the diocese is facing 6 lawsuits which have bankrupted it over priest misconduct. Her father (He is yet to convert) is now coming to my church for the same purpose, his words to me, “I expect to hear a sermon, not begging for money.” How would you interpret this if you were in my shoes?

I agree 100% that most priests are great persons and good servants of God, and lets face it we are ALL sinners.

 

[FrJohnB]

I am a cradle Catholic. I doubt very much that this could be a reason for leaving. I doubt it and I think you did not get the actual reason, one way or the other.

Most Catholics are like any other non-Catholics - they are not that stupid. They can see a man fallen and that can happen just about anywhere under the earth’s sun. If you look at the total number of Catholic priests which I just given, the percentage is nearly negligible. We know who would like to blow this out of proportion. Even the latest case was leaked purposely by the litigating lawyer for the publicity it attracted.

You can give any reasons which are plenty for leaving the Church but the one you gives stinks and it doesn’t fool any Catholics here. Maybe you can say it with glee but we know about it. You are playing the inflaming card.

By the most part priests are still well-loved and good faithful servants of God. Catholics are frustrated and sad that such scandal happen but it is never one reason to leave the Church.

Reuben,
Let me first say that I know well the area where Padrej is and there are a great many legal actions in that diocese that have bankrupted it, or caused it to declare bankruptcy. I have also known Pagrej to be a person who does not play the inflammatory card as you suggest. Knowing the dynamics of his area if those people left over the abuse, I would tend to believe it also.
I must admit also that I am in agreement with him as to the Catholic church failing in Bible study and other areas of Catholic education as well. If the people are not being fed they will leave and find the most prominent excuse to be the reason. In Padrej’s region it would be abuse.
Fr John

 

[FrJohnB]

You describe exactly what others have already stated, lack of catechesis. A catholic who is not “being fed” in mass is a Catholic who has no idea what the mass is. There is no greater worship than the mass, and every mass is filled with bible study, you know, the way it was in the beginning.

 

[Padrej]

Reuben,
Let me first say that I know well the area where Padrej is and there are a great many legal actions in that diocese that have bankrupted it, or caused it to declare bankruptcy. I have also known Pagrej to be a person who does not play the inflammatory card as you suggest. Knowing the dynamics of his area if those people left over the abuse, I would tend to believe it also.
I must admit also that I am in agreement with him as to the Catholic church failing in Bible study and other areas of Catholic education as well. If the people are not being fed they will leave and find the most prominent excuse to be the reason. In Padrej’s region it would be abuse.
Fr John

I tend to agree that people will find the most prominent reasons to leave ANY church from the argument over what color to paint the door to the nasty of nasty, clergy misconduct.

 

[Greg27]

I think the question cuts both ways. I think no doubt some churches, particularly the more radical evangelical and pentecostal sects, try to lure Christians away from mainline churches into their own fold. Sometimes I think these groups offer legitimate things which members of mainline churches feel are lacking in their own churches. I think a major problem, at least in my observation, is the mainline churches often don’t seem to offer much to young people. This is a particular problem with liturgies, which to many young people (especially the unchurched or de-churched) are incomprehensible. As a result you see lots of young people turning up at churches that run rock-concert style worship services. Conservatives in mainline churches often condemn these ‘abuses’ of the liturgy and try to agitate leaders to shut these sorts of things down. A second problem is often that some mainline churches become more like a ‘club’ than a real church. There is the ‘in’ crowd and the ‘out’ crowd. This tendency is exaggerated when church communities have a rigid authoritarian and exclusivist organisational structure. I think this occurs across all the major denominations, and all are guilty to a lesser or greater extent.

I think it must also be remembered the Catholic Church can also be highly aggressive at trying to encourage non-Catholic Christians to join the fold. The church only very recently let go of its ecclesial exclusivism well expressed in the quote by Pope Eugene the IV, which is still often bandied around a lot here in these forums:

“The Most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, also Jews, heretics, and schismatics can ever be partakers of eternal life, but that they are to go into the eternal fire ‘which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Mt. 25:41) unless before death they are joined with Her… No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ can be saved unless they abide within the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church…”

While the Catholic Church officially does not use such language, statements such as these in Dominus Iesus (para 17.2) show the attitude tends to linger somewhat:

“On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery,61 are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.62 Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.63”

The Catholic Church also continues to refuse to recognise the validity of the sacraments administered in the Protestant churches, with the exception of baptism. So, I find it is not unusual (especially on online forums) to see Catholics have a certain attitude of ecclesial triumphalism.

In practice it seems people leave a denomination or join one for various reasons. These seem to include:

1. To adopt the same denomination as the spouse;
2. To harmonise relations with family, relatives, spouse, or children;
3. Disagreement or dissatisfaction with the original denomination;
4. A conviction the other denomination has a better degree of truth;
5. Emotional reasons
6. A decision of conscience (you feel you can no longer remain a part of that denomination and remain in good standing).

It also has to be remembered many people just lose their denominational faith because their faith is pretty weak and nominal to begin with and is easily undermined in the face of stern criticism.

A dark side to this is many disaffected or emotionally vulnerable people leave mainline churches to join cults, which subject them to manipulation and abuse. This can be the downside of leaving a bigger, more established church which may have checks and balances to weed out the lunatics who often form fringe cults and brainwash their followers (I am thinking of people like Jim Jones here).

 

[Loboto-Me]

I tend to agree that people will find the most prominent reasons to leave ANY church from the argument over what color to paint the door to the nasty of nasty, clergy misconduct.

I agree 100% with this. A Catholic who was badly catechized or just doesn’t want to comply with the beliefs of the Church will often find the most glaring reason to let go of the already tenuous hold they had on their faith.

I find that it’s the cradle catholics who will most often let go because we have always been comfortable in our faith, our faith wasn’t a faith, it was a culture and a title attached to us. We went to catholic schools which were schools just like another. We were taught in religion class where most of us, being young, were not listening or taking any of it seriously anyway. From the pulpit, we have homilies on the readings, but no catechism. Many of us learn about Jesus, but not about what our faith entails during Mass. We have become lukewarm and feel that the protestant church down the road teaches the same thing but in a different style, so why not? It’s fun, and if I let go “because of the scandals” it’s more understandable to those around me, friends, family, even my new church will understand.