Are Catholics idolators? Two prominent Protestant theologians think so!

[Angainor]

E.E.N.S.:

Put into focus WHO the Church is (Bride of Christ/Mystical Body of Christ) and your problem should diminish.

Now how about those who dispise the Church?

Considering I don’t consider Catholicism and the Church are one in the same… No, it does not diminish. I still worry when people express love and adoration to Catholicism.

 

[VociMike]

How is it that these people cannot see that “God-given senses of every normal human being” tells them that Jesus is not God but only a finite creation of God. How can they not see that the arguments they use against the Eucharist are also arguments against the Incarnation?

 

[InnocentIII]

The whole issue of Catholic idolatory is an example of an historical controversy being turned into an article of faith and then reimposed on the historical record.

A few facts are in order here i think.

1. Although protestants and catholics often think they are talking about the same Ten Commandments this isn’t in fact true. The Ten Commandments if you read the Biblical account are actually nine. Because the early Church was especially concerned with chastity and adultery it divided the “Thou shalt not covet” into two listing wives and asses etc as two separate commandments. Protestant reformers however focussed more on the perceived idolatory of the Church (and it must be admitted that not a few of the uneducated faithful did fall into the sin of worshipping particular statues) and rejoined the two “covet clauses” and split the “Thou shalt have no other Gods” and the “neither shalt thou make unto thyself any graven images” to maintain the number of commandments at ten. These two versions of the Decalogue reflect the historical circumstances at the time they were interpreted though now they often have the status of religious dogma.
2. The prohibition on images in the Bible specifically states that the Jews were not to worship graven images (a la the Golden Calf) but is not a prohibition on images per se although both Judaism and Islam take it as so (their exegesis). The Church however has not prohibited the making of images for educational and memorial reasons arguing that it is not the images per se that are contrary to the Ten Commandments but tthe intent to worship them. Nonetheless the potential was always there and -
3. Periodically reformers of a puritanical stamp would get it into their heads that the Jewish/Islamic exegesis was correct and that images were being worshipped and a blaze of anti-image intolerance would break out. The Iconoclast Controversy was all about the feeling (possibly correct) that icons were being worshipped in the Eastern Churches. It is interesting to note that no-one of that time ever suggested the West was worshipping statues though they were common throughout the Western Church. The Reformation was one such similar period in the West.
4. The Church does not and never has taught that images are to be worshipped. The protestant fear of images however remains given the prominent place of the “graven images clause” in their Decalogue and because they reject images in general in their own churches they find Catholic fondness for them at the minimum peculiar and this often gives rise to the mistaken accusation that Catholics worship statues.
5. The issue of the Eucharist as idolatory is of course linked to the Catholic practice of Adoration rather than just the mass itself. Most protestants may not understand what happens in the sacrifice of the mass but they understand it is a communion service. Adoration (including processing, the Tabernacle and exposition) sounds just too much like worshipping some material representation especially as NO protestant I know (apart from Anglo-Catholics) believes in the actual permanent change of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ.
6. The accusation of Mariolatory of course derives from the protestant fear of having anyone between man and God with whom he likes to have a direct unmediated personal relationship. It must be admitted that to an outsider our attitude towards Our Lady can be seen as elevating her to a position on par with Our Lord but there is not enough space here to go into the whole issue.

To Contarini

In my wanderings as a young man I spent much time with several mainstream protestant churches as well as the Anglican both high, low and indifferent. I think you need to be careful about speaking for all protestants. The Anglican church, except in its low church evangelical variety, is quite distinct from other mainstream protestants being catholic in its practice though not always in its theology. Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians and Congregationalists all reject any real presence in the Eucharist although they believe in a generalised real presence of God (and therefore Christ) in the world. Lutherans, while accepting the real presence during the communion, explicitly reject its permanent nature and do regard our Adoration of the Sacrament as being at the very least superstitious if not outright idolatory.

 

[The_Eurasian]

Angainor:

When I hear a Catholic express how much they love and adore the Church I really worry they are making Catholicism their god.

Angainor
Catholics DO NOT adore the Catholic Church. Catholics adore the HOLY EUCHARIST whether it is in the form of the CONSECRATED Wine or The CONSECRATED Bread.

Go to a Roman Catholic BENEDICTION. You will see there Catholics ADORING the Consecrated Bread.

Read of Google Sister Faustina Kowalska. Jesus was appearing to her in apparitions hundreds of times. He told her to PROSTRATE HERSELF IN FRONT OF THE HOLY EUCHARIST.

Google or read Fatima, Our Lady of the Holy Rosary. For about 18 months before the apparition of Our Lady of the Holy Rosary, the Angel of Portugal was appearing to the 3 children. He would get the Consecrated Bread(Holy Eucharist) and leave it LEVITATING IN THE AIR. He taught thern how to ADORE God by KNEELING before the Holy Eucharist and simultaneously with their FOREHEAD TOUCHING THE GROUND, and saying. "Oh Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I believe in Thee, I hope in Thee, I adore Thee, and I love Thee. I beg pardon and mercy for those who do not believe in Thee, for those who do not hope in Thee, for those who do not adore Thee, for those who do not love Thee.

There is something real about these Fatima apparitions Angainor. Jacinta Marto, one of the two children who died in the Spanish Flu Epidemic, HER BODY NEVER DECAYED EVEN THOUGH IT WAS NEVER EMBALMED. The body emits a sweet smell. Though dead, THE BODY WAS GROWING. EACH EXHUMATION, IT WAS LARGER

The Apparition of our Lady of the Holy Rosary in Fatima, occured in 1917. The Spanish Flu Epidemic started to occur in 1918.

The 3rd child in the Fatima Apparition was Lucia Dos Santos. At that time it was understood and told that the 2 children inside the clloud which enclosed the Blessed Mother, those 2 children would die and be taken to heaven soon. And indeed, I think in 1919, they died in the Spanish Flu Epidemic.

The child outside the cloud was understood to be left on earth to do some more job. And indeed Lucia lived to an old age, I think 93 years old. She died Feb. 13, 2005. Our Lady always appeared in Fatima on the 13th of each month!!! STRANGELY??? NOW PRES. BUSH JUST LAST NIGHT (SEPT 15, 2005) WAS CONCERNED ABOUT A POSSIBLE WORLDWIDE FLU EPIDEMIC , I think connected to the AVIAN FLU KIND.

Believe that the world is in grave danger!!! I think we should follow the Fatima children. And one of the things they did is the adoration that I just told you. Other things are they prayed the Holy Rosary. Abstained, fasted, not only from food but also from water until their heads pained. They even cut a rope into 3 parts and used the rope as a belt on his/her waist, and as it rubbed on their bodies, produced lots of pain which they offered for the salvation of sinners. Our Lady said to them, don’t do that when you are asleep. Do it only when you are awake. in fact I am thinking, that rope cut into 3 parts, - THAT MIGHT BE A HINT ON THE BLESSED TRINITY.

One of the messages of Our Lady of the Holy Rosary was that a country (understood to be Russia) will TURN AGAINST GOD, and if the world does not repent, WILL SPREAD ITS ERRORS TO i think ONE THIRD OF THE WORLD. But if her requests are granted, HER IMMACULATE HEART WILL TRIUMPH AND THIS COUNTRY WILL GO BACK TO GOD.

Consistent with these messages, Czarist Russia became communist atheist USSR. After spreading its errors throughout the world, THE USSR AND ITS SATELLITES SIMPLY DISINTEGRATED WITHOUT THE US FIRING A SINGLE MISSILE. ------ THAT ADORATION PRAYER TAUGHT BY THE ANGEL OF PORTUGAL, THAT MUST BE REAL!!!

 

[InnocentIII]

Angainor:

Considering I don’t consider Catholicism and the Church are one in the same… No, it does not diminish. I still worry when people express love and adoration to Catholicism.

I am a Catholic but I do not love and adore Catholicism. I love Holy Mother Church as the Bride of Christ and as His Body established by Him when He was here on earth. That you want to separate Catholicism and the Church is your issue. We do not and therefore we cannot love Catholicism and not love the Church and vice versa.

Heretics and Schismatics have for centuries tried this trick of separating the Church from its Expression as a way of reconciling their heresy with a continued belief in Christ. Take Catholicism out of the Church and you can still belong to the Church and not be Catholic. Yet only the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church has maintained its unity over 2 millenia. Give way once to private revelation of the Truth and you give way forever. Hence the divisions of protestantism.

 

[O.S.Luke]

dennisknapp:

In their recent book titled “Correcting the Cults,” Norman Geisler and Ron Rhodes have this to say about the Catholic view the Eucharist and Eucharistic adoration.

“Many Protestants believe it (the Host) involves the worship of something which God-give senses of every normal human being informs them is a finite creation God, namely, bread and wine. It is to worship God under a physical image a form of worship that is clearly forbidden in the Ten Commandments (Exod. 20:4)”

This is hardly a post worth posting about.

1. Norman Geisler and Ron Rhodes are hardly prominent Protestant theologians; they have books published by a semi-vanity-scholastic press.
2. They are both from ‘evangelical’ traditions that do not even recognize the sacraments, only ordinances. They have no understanding or belief in the grace-filled nature of the sacraments nor see them as outward and visible signs of Christ’s Real Presence, as some Protestant traditions do (such as my own).

I’d give no credence to what they say. Moreover, they do not speak for Protestants from liturgical traditions.

O+

 

[Zooey]

O.S. Luke:

This is hardly a post worth posting about.

1. Norman Geisler and Ron Rhodes are hardly prominent Protestant theologians; they have books published by a semi-vanity-scholastic press.
2. They are both from ‘evangelical’ traditions that do not even recognize the sacraments, only ordinances. They have no understanding or belief in the grace-filled nature of the sacraments nor see them as outward and visible signs of Christ’s Real Presence, as some Protestant traditions do (such as my own).

I’d give no credence to what they say. Moreover, they do not speak for Protestants from liturgical traditions.

O+

Exactly right!!

( Omigosh! The Methodists in Residence–Luke and I-- have finally totally agreed!!!http://bestsmileys.com/fainting/1.gif)

 

[JOHNYJ]

This arguement has been going on for centuries .Officialy Catholics pray in front of statues and Icons so to focus their prayers to who the statue or Icon represents. The object is a representation.It in itself is nothing.
Regretuly at times among uneducated people the distinction get blurred, that may be why some protestants think Catholics pray to the object.I have been called an Idol worshiper by a Lutheran. I resisted the urge to call her a heretic,LOL