Are Catholics really Catholic?

[JReducation]

Dear Br. JR,

I’ve read posts you’ve written on various topics before and I think it would be a fabulous idea for you to write the book! I do hope the time when your superior grants permission is fast approaching. Part of my hope is because so much of what is currently available on the subject of “Why I’m Catholic” makes it seem like Catholicism is a multiple choice proposition. There are too many dissident authors who are speaking as voices of authority that push radical agendas in the name of “Wouldn’t Jesus like it if we all hold hands and sing kumbaya?”

I don’t know that people consciously intend to disagree with and be violent towards tenants of our faith and those who teach Truth. I think the root of the problem is much deeper – culturally, as Americans, I think we all feel we are entitled to the “right” to question & reject anything & everything and ridicule those whose points of view differ, and secondly, there is still the major issue with entire generations of Catholics who were improperly catechized or not catechized at all. It is so easy for dissidents to sway large crowds when people who have minimal knowledge of the faith blindly follow dazzling, persuasive speakers and don’t know enough to know what they were just told is not in line with Rome. I really think it comes down to lack of education. People don’t know. They don’t know about the miracle that occurs every day at Mass. They don’t know about our Traditions (with a capital T) and what they must believe to consider ourselves truly Catholic. They don’t know.

snip

Br. JR, as I’ve said, I’ve read your posts on here. I don’t think you frighten people away. Yes, you may challenge, but you are always addressing the issue, not the person. That’s why I think you would be so successful in your endeavors to write this book. We need it now more than ever.

Please know you are in my prayers and I’d love to see an advance copy once you get permission!

Thanks for you kind words. I hope that I do get permission too. However, let us remember that we are put on this earth not to do our will, but to live out God’s plan for us.

Regarding what you have said, I must say that I have to agree with you. What modern man is doing is abolishing God from religion. It is very important to note that this is not the first time that this experiment has been tried and failed. It will fail again.

At some points, we Catholics will go back to the roots. I keep insisting that when we begin to look at the choices the saints made, how they focussed on their mission and the situation before them, then we will get back on track. None of them lived in ideal worlds or the ideal time in the history of the Church. They all have one thing in common. They all respond ideally.

They understood that if they changed themselves, they would change the world, because grace pours out from one person into the whole body. That’s why men like the Carthusian hermits can say that they are not interested in our concerns, be it about sexual abuse or the liturgy or the neighbor with the loud music.

It’s not that they are disinterested. It’s that they know something that they wish to share with us. But we are often very stubborn and keep saying that this is for them to live, not the rest of us who live in the “real world.” The truth is that their world is far more real than our own. They know that the the forces of sin are no match for prayer, penance, asceticism and cultivating interior silence.

God did not put the Carthusians into the world so that they could disappear off the face of the earth. God put them into the world so that they could be a living, breathing sign of how God wants us to live, anticipating the Kingdom of God.

We must face the evil in the world, but we must also face the evil within us. It is often very easy to point to the evil around us and neglect the weeds in our own garden. If we truly believe that the law of prayer is the law of faith, then we must take to heart the prayer the universal Church prayed tonight at Compline:

“Lord, Jesus Christ, you have given your followers an exampole of gentleness and humility, a task that is easy, a burden that is light.”

This is where all of us need to do a lot of work. It cannot be all about questioning and challenging the other person. That’s only part of the message of the Gospel. The other part is far more difficult. Yet, in our liturgy, we proclaim that it is easy to be gentle and humble. If we truly believe this, then we need to show it.

St. Bonaventure wrote 56 sermons about St. Francis and two biographies. In one of his sermons he uses these theme. He said that Francis was the disciple who could say, “look at me and learn from me, for I have taken on the task that is easy and the burden that is light. Follow the Gospel as I have and God will not disappoint you.”

I have alwasy found them to be very powerful words by Bonaventure.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Suslar]

Sadly, it’s not simply modern man attempting to abolish God from religion – there are many in influential positions in the Church and in Catholic education that are doing a ton of harm. When a nun publically announces that she is pro-abortion or a priest comes out to say celibacy is too difficult, then the laity is left to either #1 agree or #2 shake our heads and wonder what went wrong. We just have so few definitive, consistent voices of Truth.

I recently suggested that our parish needs a Basics of Catholicism Bootcamp to help us get back to our roots. I was told my ideas are “too radical” and “could offend the less knowledgeable.” Huh? It just seems to me that before people start dabbling in practices from Asian religions or New Age stuff, they should have a core basis of knowledge. And before people start talking about their “right” to follow their own conscience, they should have that conscience properly formed.

So where does one go for formation?

My parish has done away with traditional religious ed programs (like the old CCD). They are trying a new intergenerational approach. I was so excited about the approach at first. Until I realized the agenda is to teach to the lowest common denominator and teach all the light & fluffy stuff so no one gets upset or offended. As an example, the first fall session is on “Celebrating what it means to be Catholic.” They will ask participants what they think is the most central & authentic thing about being Catholic. In the curriculum development session, when I was asked that question, I eagerly responded “that we have the body, blood, soul & divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ really and truly present to us each and every day in the Mass!”

Oops! Wrong answer. Apparently, it is a trick question. After people discuss it, the program leader is going to then tell everyone “There is no one thing that makes us Catholic. We are made up from a collage of convictions and we are no better and no worse than any other religious group in our quest for the moving target of Truth.”
It made me wonder then why be Catholic? If every religion in the world is “the same,” then why be Catholic? And why celebrate that sameness? If Truth is a moving target, then why bother pursuing it? I left the planning session deeply saddened.

I spoke to the program leader the next day. He passionately believes that all forms of praising God are equal. And he holds a Masters in Pastoral Studies from a supposedly Catholic university. He told me that we cannot focus on Real Presence as a differentiator for why it’s great to be Catholic for two reasons. First, most people either don’t understand or simply don’t believe in transubstantiation, and second, we have married couples in the parish where one spouse is Protestant but still receives Eucharist because we don’t want to offend them. So rather than educate on Truth, we’re going to placate people and make them feel good. He then suggested I resign from the program because my spirituality alienates people.

So we’re building an intergenerational program at my parish where anyone can attend and get a big dose of the warm and fuzzies – anyone, that is, except for me. And don’t get me started on non-Catholics who present themselves for Holy Communion!!!

I agree we need to live out God’s plan for us. I think mine is to learn more about apologetics and the faith so I can be a missionary of evangelization in my own parish community. I am praying that yours is to write that book. This troubled world needs you and the message you bring.

As you patiently await permission for the book, do you think you could get permission to write and email out a daily reflection?

 

[JReducation]

I want to respond to Suslar’s post, because of length I have to do it in a separate window.

When I say that we want to take God out of the equation, I’m not limiting this to lay people. There are all kinds of people invovled here.

The people who say that all religions are the same are wrong. That has never been taught by the Catholic Church. We believe that all religions have parts of the truth. But there is a great difference between having a piece and having all of it. The fullness of truth subsists only in the Catholic Church. Even our Orthodox brothers and sisters, who have true Apostolic Succession and true communion in sacraments, with us, are lacking one last piece . . . the primacy of Peter and the Immaculate Conception. OK, two pieces.

The intergeneration religious education model is a wonderful concept that has been used in many places with great success. I have used it too. It involved including adults and children in the religious education program.

That being said, it does not mean that we change the teachings of the faith. That’s not part of the model. The idea of the model, which was conceptualized by the Sisters of Notre Dame, was to catechize parents along with children. The sisters recognized that the parents needed this. Without the parents, the children were unable to practice their faith to the fullest.

I’m not sure what the person who spoke to you means by “radical”. I hate labels. Words such as: liberal, conservative, radical, and modernist are often thrown around too quickly and without much thought into what they mean. But I have found that they are often thrown out there to shut people up. That’s a very un-Catholic reason to use these words. Shutting people up is a form of oppression. Oppression is morally wrong, because it denies the dignity of the person. As we have seen in the writings of the recent popes, the Church is very concerned about the lack of respect and the increase disdain that we show for human dignity.

My personal opinion is that shutting someone up is the first link in a chain that enslaves people to the will others. It is not proper evangelization. It is an attempt at domination, another sin against the faith.

I’m not sure how you envisioned your Cathlic Bootcamp. But if you’re talking about taking people back to basics, most of us who are intelligent theologians, Catholic educators, preachers, and missionaries would agree with you. We do need to go back to the basics. This is why I have been speaking a great deal about our saints. Even on these threads, we find that people are so in love with their point of view and so focussed on what they see as issues, that they are not paying attention to their life of prayer, penance, and virtue.

For example, those who spend hours on these forums defending COTT, CITH, OF, and EF, often make me wonder. I have to wonder if they spend as much energy defending the unborn, the older person who is being euthanized, doing lectio divina, listening to their spouses and children, cleaning their homes, volunteering at the parish, studying the catechism and more. I have seen people who post five to 10 times a day on an issue such as CITH or the TLM or pro-abortion, bashing bishops and so forth. I often hope that they are celibate. If I were married to a person who dedicated that much time to these fora, which should be time for us as a couple, I’d be very lonely. It’s hard to have a conversation with your spouse when the computer is between you.

I’m not saying that these are not questions that we should not muddle through. Please do not get me wrong. What I’m saying is that this is not the way to live the spiritual life. We have lost the way to the spiritual life. You are correct. We must get back to basics. We must look at our role models, the saints. How did they pray? How did they practice charity? How did they care for their families? How did they treat others? What did they believe about the Eucharist, the Church, the scriptures, life after death and so forth? How did they become saints?

 

[JReducation]

Since I was not there, I cannot say wether the program director is right or wrong in saying that all forms of praising God are equal. Sometimes the wording that people use fails to convey the correct message. I will express it as I know best. All forms of worship are good. God deserves to be worshipped. Whether you worship him before the Blessed Sacrament or at the local Mosque, worship is good.

There is a difference between the word “good” and the word “equal”. I’ll put this in material terms. $50.00 right about now would be good. But I would not turn down $150, because the two gifts are equal. They are not. To worship God in a Mosque is good. To worship God in the sacrafice of the mass is better; therefore, they are not equal. One is worth $50 and the other is worth $150.

Do we have to say this in a manner that offends our Muslim brothers and sisters? Absolutely not. Can we tell our Muslim brothers and sisters that we have great respect for the fact that they stop to pray several times a day? Absolutely and I hope that the compliment is sincere. Because I wish that every Catholic would stop to pray the Liturgy of the Hours at least morning, evening and night. But here is what we can share with our Muslim brothers and sisters, which may edify them. We can share with them that Catholics have held the practice of sanctifying the hours of the day since the early days of the Church. We call it the Liturgy of the Hours or the Divne Office. It has existed longe before Islam was born. Then we can proceed to invite them to the Liturgy of the Hours in our home. The only problem is that Catholics have to go back to the old days (back to basics) when people prayed the Liturgy of the Hours, when it was not just for deacons, priests, friars and nuns.

Because we have lost that practice, then we cannot see that the life of constant prayer is already available to us in our own Catholic tradition and that through that practice, hundreds of thousands of men and women were sanctified and became saints.

The point on the Eucharist is absolutely nonsense. I rarely speak that bluntly. To say that this is not the Catholic point of unity is nonsense. I can’t find another word for it. Every Catholic and Orthodox mystic, theologian and saint has always been keenly aware of the unative power of the Eucharist. In fact, the reason that we Catholics believe that the Catholics and the Orthodox are the two lungs of the faith is because we share the one Eucharist, despite the schism between us. The Eucharist is the diamond on the wring and the Liturgy of the Hours is the crown of jewels around the diamond. Our liturgical life the beautiful wedding band worn by the bride of Christ, the Church.

One does not have to believe that the Eucharist is physically Jesus Christ to make it so. The fact that you don’t believe something does not make annul it. There is a classical biologist whose name was Piaget. Piaget discovered that the reason that you could hide something from a young child and make him believe that it had ceased to exist or disappeared, is because a child does not have a sense of ojbect permanence until a certain age. If they can’t perceive it, it ceases to exist. In other words, the child without object permanence is convinced that the object is no longer in existence. Did the object really stop existing? Did the tooth under the pillow really turn into a quarter? Just because we believe or disbelieve, it does not change reality.

For someone to say that the center of the Catholic faith changes based on beliefs, is like saying that objects in the universe cease to exist when you can no longer perceive them. The color red existed, even for Helen Keller who never saw it.

The answer is not, Catholicism is not a collective of people reaching after some evasive truth. Truth is truth and it exists. It is not evasive. The reason that we cannot alwasy see it is because, like Helen Keller who could not see red, we have spiritual conditions that handicap us.

One of my favorite people in history is Ann Sullivan, Helen Keller’s teacher. She once said that within Helen’s head there were words, but Helen did not know they were there. She was determined to help her know. This is the same for truth. It is there, in everyone’s conscience. We have to be determined to help those around us discover it. But like Anne Sullivan, we must be loving and perseverative.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Suslar]

Possible material for your book?

Seriously, thank you for your answer. You write with a lot of common sense and charity.

If you would be so kind, please remember me in prayer today - that I might respond to that program manager with love and patience and not just give in out of convenience.

By the way, I used to work for a nun who would call people that try your patience “the saint makers.” I think I get it now. To be like the Saints, we need to follow the example of the Saints in responding to others with love and true Christian charity - not a fake niceness, but with genuine concern for the welfare of their souls. I’m going to work on that today.

 

[glenaitken]

It seems to me that many don’t even know why ther are catholic. For a lot of people it is about one issue or identity. My friend identifys himself as catholic becaus ehe is italian. in a meeting one day (i work for a church) with other leaders we were asked what we loved about being catholic-- everyone answered, “the eucharist”, but i answered taht i loved everything about catholicism. They were suprised and couldn;t believe that there was someone who loved every sacrament, doctrine, ect. (although i’ll admit i’m not always thrilled with ther general administraion run of things, but that is more user-error than faith). these people in parish leadership were only catholic because of the Eucharist-- no doubt a great reason, but there is something lacking in that kind of an answer, a misunderstanding or ignorance of the totality of the faith and of God’s revelation.
Long story short, there are alot of peoplewho think they understand more than they do, and therefore they criticize the reast of the flock, or the fiath itself, needlesly, mistaking false humilities and other false virtues for real (like in the case of false compassion that loves the sinner and the sin or false holiness that masquerades as making others feel good while the person imitates perfect manners instead of perfect charity).
That’s just some of my take on part of the problem.

 

[JReducation]

Possible material for your book?

Seriously, thank you for your answer. You write with a lot of common sense and charity.

If you would be so kind, please remember me in prayer today - that I might respond to that program manager with love and patience and not just give in out of convenience.

By the way, I used to work for a nun who would call people that try your patience “the saint makers.” I think I get it now. To be like the Saints, we need to follow the example of the Saints in responding to others with love and true Christian charity - not a fake niceness, but with genuine concern for the welfare of their souls. I’m going to work on that today.

Common sense is not the word that I would use, but thanks. On charity, I’m still working.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[simple_soul]

*Dear Br. Jay,
Just wanted to say thank you and bump this thread.
I just read this thread again and, after talking to a friend of mine last night about this, I had to come back and say I do believe we catholics so need to learn how to be catholic. Well, at least I know this one needs to learn how to be more catholic.
Thank you again for posting this thread and please also thank your Superior for letting you and please let me know when the book gets published.

 

[rapunzel77]

Bro. Jay,

Thank you for the wonderful thread. You raise some very important points that I believe we need to take to heart some more. It is difficult for the laity who are oftentimes very confused. Many of us have been given bad teaching and honestly don’t know what the Church actually teaches and why She teaches them. Also, sooo much of our traditions, devotions, etc have been thrown away that many don’t know what it is to be Catholic anymore. For many it is a cultural thing instead of being the path to salvation.

I hope you do eventually write your book. Although I am not a “fan” of Franciscan spirituality (I prefer Benedictine) you give insight into what is truly important. It is so easy to stray and to concentrate on either everything or nothing. Thank you and God bless you .

 

[po18guy]

Common sense is not the word that I would use, but thanks. On charity, I’m still working. Fraternally, Br. JR, OSF

Br. Jay, I opine that we have received our senses from God, as part of our “likeness” to Him. So, in that sense, it is a blessing to speak revealed truth plainly, understandably and with love. All reflect our Creator.

Of course, having sense is no longer common, so we should perhaps begin referring to “uncommon sense” and even go so far as to consider it a grace.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’m a pretty worldly guy, and not even a very nice one. So perhaps I shouldn’t post at all here, but I will.

Despite being worldly and not very nice, I am observant. One of the strangest experience I have now and then is when someone (usually Catholic, but not always) asks if I’m Catholic. 'Yes", I’ll say. The next question is usually something about whether I’m “observant” or not. (In so many words.)

My response is “of course”, as if it is a weird thing for a person to even ask. Usually, then, that brings on the challenges, like how can I believe in the Real Presence, Confession, “what the Pope says”, opposition to abortion, etc, etc, etc.

I know it sounds silly, but the “of course” always tends to make the conversation easier. I guess so many are so doubtful that it is odd to them to meet a worldly person who really is observant and believes it all. (I believe it all because Christ established the Church and besides, who am I to “reinvent the wheel” of millenia?) Strangely, it always seems to bring their doubting down a notch. I never apologize for the Church, and don’t have to. People who want to know why you believe really do want to know. That they doubt because of this or that is not the important thing.

I’ll add, as other have, that I think Catechesis since VII has been wretched. Some clergy and religious and religious writers took the “liberation theology” soup; American style. “Liberation Theology Lite”, I call it. I think it mixed people up to see clergy, religious and writers equate liberal social policies with personal morality or even put the former on a higher plane than the latter. In my mind, if you do not see to your own personal morality, your “liberal conscience” is nothing but a sham. If you try hard to be morally observant, obedient to the laws of the Church and welcome the graces that flow from prayer and the sacraments, you’re not going to be short of charity.

But I think, too, that the toxins that flowed out of personal interpretations of the “spirit of VII” (No, I don’t argue with the council itself.) are receding. I really do. But installing decent catechesis, even in Catholic schools, is going to be a hard slog. Consequently, our own children and grandchildren are, and ought to be, the primary focus of our own catechetical effots. “As the twig is bent, so inclines the tree.”

 

[jimcav]

^ You kind of beat me to it Ridgerunner! ^

I was going to say that to many Catholics have become worldly. They now care more about what the world thinks of them that the Church might think of them. They look at success differently to. Today, a secular family with 2 children and a big house, nice car and all the toys is considered more successful than a Church-going family with 5 children in a small apartment and a used car. Catholics today would rather go to psychco therapy than to confession. It seems every weekend these days is just an excuse to get away to the boat, the summer house or to chase some other temporary pleasure instead of trying to make Mass and maybe keep holy the Sabbath. It’s just not as important today. We as a faith, although certainly not only us, have bought into the worlds promise of material riches as opposed to Gods rich’s. To many of us have lost the gift of faith for something more tangible - pleasure.

Today, Catholics look at the “rules” of the faith as something that binds them and holds them back, when in fact if they really knew their faith, they would know that they free them! The Catholic life, when well led, is the most beautiful life one can lead here, but it has become a very tough sell. Unfortunately, the world has done a better job of selling us on a life full of goodies and toys with no suffering. At first glance, that certainly seems more inviting than a Church full of rules, doesn’t it? As my own faith matured, I found myself abohhring this world and all of the junk and temporal pleasure that come with it and I have been far happier than I ever was when I was worldly.

The question is, how do we get Catholics to believe that again?

I also fear that Catholics today have lost the sense that they have the “Truth”. In today’s society, there seems to be no truth. Everybody is right and nobody is wrong. There is no up or down, black or white, or left or right. It’s all a grey area. In to many Catholics eyes, the Muslim, Hindu, or Buddist belief is just as correct as our belief. The Protestant movement has certainly hurt the truth also, as they slice and dice our Christian faith into so many denominations that the cafeteria Catholic has no idea who’s right anymore. I fear that all of this just makes many Catholics just give up on their faith because it all just seems to hard to grasp! What a shame…

I pray that our Catholic brothers and sisters find there way back to the faith and that they truly live that faith. It is so much more beautiful than what this world offers us…

I

 

[rapunzel77]

I’ll add, as other have, that I think Catechesis since VII has been wretched. Some clergy and religious and religious writers took the “liberation theology” soup; American style. “Liberation Theology Lite”, I call it. I think it mixed people up to see clergy, religious and writers equate liberal social policies with personal morality or even put the former on a higher plane than the latter. In my mind, if you do not see to your own personal morality, your “liberal conscience” is nothing but a sham. If you try hard to be morally observant, obedient to the laws of the Church and welcome the graces that flow from prayer and the sacraments, you’re not going to be short of charity.

I think this is the major problem. Many, many Catholics simply know nothing, nada about the Faith. They were never taught it. Instead, they were taught “liberal” stuff, fuzzy things. I think it is a beautiful witness to be a practicing Catholic in the world. People need to see more examples of us.

But I think, too, that the toxins that flowed out of personal interpretations of the “spirit of VII” (No, I don’t argue with the council itself.) are receding. I really do. But installing decent catechesis, even in Catholic schools, is going to be a hard slog. Consequently, our own children and grandchildren are, and ought to be, the primary focus of our own catechetical effots. “As the twig is bent, so inclines the tree.”

I hope you are right but sadly I think it will take several decades for the toxins to be cleaned out. This will probably mean waiting until most of the Spirit of Vatican II people meet their Maker. In the meantime, we must redouble the efforts to teach this current generation of children the truth. It will be a very long and rocky road to do it though.

 

[po18guy]

One (OK, me) wonders just how, if those who implemented V2 had actually been agents of the evil one on a mission to destroy the Church (instead of Bishops charged with furthering the faith), they would have done anything differently. Intentions are one thing. The fruits are quite another. And it seems that “good intentions” have taken over almost every aspect of this world - regardless of the actual results.

The recovery begins with each of us.

 

[JReducation]

I’m reading what everyone is posting and there is some good stuff here. I’d like to touch on the bishops, because they were brought up. We must be very careful when speaking about our bishops, for a number of reasons. I’ll go into them one at a time.

Regardless of their flaws, they remain the successors of the Apostles. I often hear Catholics speak about them as if they were speaking about Johnny Walker and I don’t mean the guy on the label. I think that we say nicer things about him. That IS scary. Canon expresses this very well. It says that the faithful have a right and a duty to inform their bishops of problems and concerns. However, the same law also says that the lay faithful have a duty to preserve their reverence toward the bishops. The lay faithful are not so faithful to the law. They are good at telling the bishops and anyone who will listen all about the flaws. But they are not very reverent toward the bishops. All we have to do is read how some people speak about them on these fora. Whatever their flaws, they are not our peers.

I was married once and the father of three children. I became a friar after being widowed. I remember something that I told my daughter in one of those father-daughter talks on authority and respect. “I may be wrong, but I’m still your father and you will speak to me as a daughter should speak to her father. This is not negotiable.” Today, my children are adults and they dare not raise their voice at Dad or bad-mouth him. This has carried over to their dealings with Church authority. I know that they disagree with the Church on many points. But when they come to visit me at the friary, they speak to every brother with respect. They even refer to the superior of the house as, Father Superior. He’s neither a priest nor their superior. But they have learned that authority has its rights and one of them is the right to spoken to and about with respect. We have two very good friends of the family who are bishops; actually, one is a Cardinal. Though they refer to both of them by their name, not their title, because they have known them that way all their lives, they never speak to them in a manner that can be rude or give offense, even when they disagree. This makes me wonder about authority in the home. I can tell that my adult children have generalized what they learned at home about authority and respect to those outside the home. This happened, because there was a line at home that they dared not cross. It was not tolerated. When I see people bashing bishops, I wonder if they have the same relationship with their parents or with their children. I can’t imagine one being reverent toward parents and irreverent toward bishops. After all, parents also make mistakes.

Then there is the issue of the consecrated life and the priesthood. While there are many who attempt to be the teachers of the teacher, there are few who want to become teachers. Why not become priests, brothers, sisters, or nuns? If you want to save souls, including your own, you want to fix something that is broken, the best place to do it is from within. I realize that one has to be called to either the priesthood or the consecrated life. But if one is called to build the Church, then would should respond with one’s life, not just one’s mouth. This to me was the selling point on St. Francis of Assisi. His world and his Church were very similar to our own. However, when he heard the voice of Christ say, “Francis, go rebuild my Church. Can’t you see that it has fallen into ruins?” Francis dropped everything and consecrated his life as a brother. He spent his entire life converting Catholics, not bashing bishops. He founded three orders and between them, they have given the Church more saints than any other religious family, an average of about 20 per century. Together, the three orders make up the largest religious family in the Catholic Church. Today we number more than 1.7 million. That’s today. Add up all the generations of Franciscans since 1209 to 2010. To me, this man clearly understood how to rebuild the Church.

You don’t have to become a Franciscan, secular or regular. But we can and should take lessons from people like him. He never uttered a single word against the horrors within the Church at his time. In fact, there is an expressed prohibition against it in his writings and his teaching. Francis had a very clear vision that the renewal of the Church began with the renewal of the individual, not by correcting what others were saying and doing. Correcting others was a fraternal duty reserved for those who were working on their own soul. Before you could correct another, you had to examine your conscience, go to confession and get good spiritual direction. Francis demanded this of both religious and lay people who followed him.

Today, we have many who are saying that the Church needs to fix this or that, but they’re not making the kind of impact that Francis made by not saying all of this, but simply living the Gospel and teaching others how to live it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ConstantineTG]

Truly inspiring Bro. JR, I hope you get to write your book. I will only buy it if you will sign it, it brings me much honor to say I’ve known the person who wrote such a wonderful book.

 

[rapunzel77]

Thank you Bro. However, getting back to the bishops, perhaps what is the problem here is that many in the Church, this includes faithful Catholics as well, have been disillusioned when it comes to the bishops. I admit that I expect the bishops to be liberal and wishy washy with very few exceptions because MANY of the bishops act this way. We are very confused right now since there are so many differing positions with the bishops. Some of them honestly don’t speak the Truth. Some priests don’t either. I admit that I assume that the bishop or priest will first be wishy washy, “tolerant”, and liberal. I admit that it is always a pleasant surprise when it turns out that the bishop or priest in question is the opposite. There are so few examples of a good, holy, faithful bishops and priests now .

 

[NotReligous]

This thread oddly enough reminded me of a part of my life. … I will share it here, although I am not sure why. I haven’t really told any one about this before…

Well…when I used to be a catholic, I always tried to convert people to my religion…Most of those people were atheists or protestants… And a part of my converting included also the catholic opinion on homosexuals, sex, abortion and so forth… So what did I gain?

The one I made the most progress with was my best friend, which he still is… He was a Protestant, a Lutheran to be more precise. He was never a very religious person, but neither did he hide or was ashamed of his faith. So, I (with the help of my father) tried to “correct” some of the things that he believed. This meant mostly telling him that X thing was a sin.

So I started to tell him, that this is what the bible says of the following sins; (for example homosexuality) And I brought him a lot of papers filled with bible quotes and explanations for the quotes. (the quotes were pretty straight forward though) By the time I was done he admitted that the bible did indeed say these things, and he had no reason to believe otherwise.

And what did he do? He only replied; “I don’t want to believe those things. I can’t be a Lutheran anymore, but neither can I become a Catholic. Your faith is too cruel. From this day forth, I will be an atheist.” (Please note, that this might not be 100% correctly translated, but I tried to make the quote pretty accurate. And no, English is not my native language)

This happened about…four years ago. He wasn’t joking when he said that he would become an atheist, he has been one throughout those four years, and it is very clear that he is not coming back to faith.

After he became an atheist he also said to me; “(my name), you will never convert any one to your faith.” And he was correct.

… Any comments?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’m reading what everyone is posting and there is some good stuff here. I’d like to touch on the bishops, because they were brought up. We must be very careful when speaking about our bishops, for a number of reasons. I’ll go into them one at a time.

Regardless of their flaws, they remain the successors of the Apostles. I often hear Catholics speak about them as if they were speaking about Johnny Walker and I don’t mean the guy on the label. I think that we say nicer things about him. That IS scary. Canon expresses this very well. It says that the faithful have a right and a duty to inform their bishops of problems and concerns. However, the same law also says that the lay faithful have a duty to preserve their reverence toward the bishops. The lay faithful are not so faithful to the law. They are good at telling the bishops and anyone who will listen all about the flaws. But they are not very reverent toward the bishops. All we have to do is read how some people speak about them on these fora. Whatever their flaws, they are not our peers.

This reminds me of the odd experience I had when a physician who (for some reason) had given up the practice of medicine to get into the same business I am in. He does quite well at it and even has his “M.D” on his letterhead, which is odd. But that’s the way it is. There was a transaction in which we were both involved. Because (I guess) I’m not the nicest fellow on earth, I couldn’t bring myself to address him as “Dr. X” in our business dealing. I always referred to him as “Mr. X”. At a point, he asked me why I addressed him as “Mr.” instead of “Dr.” Sometimes I am a bit surprised at what comes out of my mouth, and I heard myself say: “In your world, you’re “Dr”, but you’re in my world now, and we’re all “Mr” in this one.”

Rude of me, I guess. But the point really is that I think it is incumbent on us to be deferential to the point of near totality to bishops when they talk about faith and morals. When they start talking politics; the choices a secular polity might make that could have this result or that, and realizing there are always unexpected consequences of anything that happens in the secular world, no matter how well-intentioned it might seem on the surface, then I feel free to depart from their counsel even when there is some potential, but uncertain, relationship to faith and morals.

An example. Some years back, then-President Bush proposed a voluntary, partial privatization of social security for young workers. Now, in fact, that’s entirely consistent with the Social Encyclicals; more so than the present SS system, at least potentially. But the USCCB opposed it, thinking it somehow uncharitable to do so. And they did it immediately. It left me wondering whether the UCCB folks had never read the Social Encyclicals or, having read them, dissented from them.

When they did that, they departed, in my mind, from “their world” and entered “mine”. How could they possibly know whether such a program would ultimately be more beneficial to younger workers than the present system? How could they possibly know whether it would deprive older workers in some manner? The answer is that they did not know. To think it through in a secular “comparative benefit” sense, they would have had to really analyze the effects at great length; something they manifestly had not the opportunity to have done. Alternatively, they could have had a sort of knee-jerk political reaction against “privatization” of anything they simply think should be in the governmental realm, as a matter of political ideology. Was their opinion truly a matter of faith and morals, or was it “liberation theology lite”; a fundamentally secular political position, creeping into a place where it did not belong.

Consequently, and for whatever difference it made, which is probably none, I could not give any deference to the USCCB’s opinion on the matter and, in fact, strongly disagreed with it. More, I did not feel they had any rightful place stating fundamentally political judgments as if they were moral precepts.

Opposition to killing the unborn? Yes. That’s a moral issue and a very serious one. As the Pope has said, it admits of no “prudential judgment”. I understand that, and I accept it.

Opposition to partial, voluntary SS contributions? That’s a political issue, an area in which “prudential judgment” is permitted, and in which the moral implications of some (unkown to them) method of implementation could not possibly have been known with clarity.

Finally, I will say that I would be much encouraged by bishops’ being very clear and very definite concerning true issues of faith and morals, and they should encourage proper catechesis in every way. I am dismayed, however, when bishops (or their organizations) give the “color” of faith and/or morals to purely political issues, and particularly when they’re announced in “sound bite” fashion. As I have said before, if we are strongly and repeatedly encouraged to examine our consciences and to be aware of Church teachings, and to pray for the grace to be wise as actors in this world, we will likely do what is right. If, on the other hand, we get a steady diet of what sounds like partisan politics, no one should be surprised if Catholics tend to think of the teachings of the Church as no more certain than the latest ad of a political candidate.

 

[po18guy]

This thread oddly enough reminded me of a part of my life. … I will share it here, although I am not sure why. I haven’t really told any one about this before…

Well…when I used to be a catholic, I always tried to convert people to my religion…Most of those people were atheists or protestants… And a part of my converting included also the catholic opinion on homosexuals, sex, abortion and so forth… So what did I gain?

The one I made the most progress with was my best friend, which he still is… He was a Protestant, a Lutheran to be more precise. He was never a very religious person, but neither did he hide or was ashamed of his faith. So, I (with the help of my father) tried to “correct” some of the things that he believed. This meant mostly telling him that X thing was a sin.

So I started to tell him, that this is what the bible says of the following sins; (for example homosexuality) And I brought him a lot of papers filled with bible quotes and explanations for the quotes. (the quotes were pretty straight forward though) By the time I was done he admitted that the bible did indeed say these things, and he had no reason to believe otherwise.

And what did he do? He only replied; “I don’t want to believe those things. I can’t be a Lutheran anymore, but neither can I become a Catholic. Your faith is too cruel. From this day forth, I will be an atheist.” (Please note, that this might not be 100% correctly translated, but I tried to make the quote pretty accurate. And no, English is not my native language)

This happened about…four years ago. He wasn’t joking when he said that he would become an atheist, he has been one throughout those four years, and it is very clear that he is not coming back to faith.

After he became an atheist he also said to me; “(my name), you will never convert any one to your faith.” And he was correct.

… Any comments?

First, welcome to the forums. I tend to view the word “religion” as a verb. It describes how I accomplish some of my actions, but not the reason for my actions. 'Faith" is a noun, and describes what gives us all hope. It is the reason for my actions. So, I do not try to convert anyone to a “religion”, but rather I try to give good example of my faith. No one, except the Holy Spirit, converts a heart to the truth. By ourselves, you and I can only lead (or push) away from the truth. We have both seen this happen.

But, as many as fall away from any semblance of faith, are replaced when the Holy Spirit calls many others from unbelief to belief. Those of little faith fall away, while those seeking faith are called together. Those who lose faith have no direction, while those with faith are “goal oriented” - they have a single direction. The Holy Spirit called me over the course of several decades. I now have direction, but will not lose sleep over those who are wandering, since God also has a plan for them. It simply is not their time yet. This is why we pray.

How can life have any sense of fulfillment without belief or faith? One’s soul seeks either worldly or heavenly comfort. Those who most fervently seek heavenly comfort seem not to care much about what the world delivers to them. Those who seek worldly comfort are limited by their own bodies, their own intellects, as well as the rules that they must live under. How can you be happy if you are prevented (by society and its laws) from seeking or doing that which pleases you? This is a guarantee that a faithless life will never be truly happy.

Ah, but once you have received the grace (gift) of faith, the world diminishes in importance, and the higher power (God) increases in importance. Your thoughts change when you realize that we are not the originators of our lives. Neither are we the owners of our lives. Someone gave life to us through our parents.

When someone tries to “convert” you, look beyond the messenger and honestly try to see the message. There are also reasons behind the messages. If you seek the messages and the reasons for those messages, you will come to understanding. Man’s words will drive someone away, while the power of the Holy Spirit, like an immense magnet, attracts. That attraction can become so powerful that our strength to resist fails us.