Are Catholics sure they are going to heaven?

[Revelation13_16]

Dear CA,

In my ongoing ‘fence sitting’ inquiry into Catholicism, I have been reading many pro-Catholic works, and a few anti-Catholic works. (but mostly pro, and most who know me here believe I am earnestly seeking the truth)

Ephesians 2:8-9 says:

By Grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves, not of works, it is the gift of God"

Protestants use this any many other passages from the New Testament to bank on their salvation. (although almost all Protestants acknowledge that God produces a change in people to make them do good works so a Christian who says they are saved but then sins en masse is probably not a Christian at all and has a false faith)

Now, as I understand the Catholic position, and please correct me if I’m wrong, it involves Merit.

So here’s my problem.

I read from an anti-Catholic site that: “Rome believes in salvation by works. Ergo, no Roman Catholic can be sure of his salvation”

Now I don’t know if this is true or not.

This “Merit” is it merely something that makes Purgatory go quicker, or is it actually needed to avoid Hell?

To rephrase this, let’s say I choose to become a Catholic, go through RCIA, be a good Catholic for a year, and then decide never to step foot in a Catholic church again and just stay home for the rest of my life.

Do I go to heaven (via a long stint in purgatory) or Hell because of my Mortal Sins?

Thanks.

Love,
Rev

 

[Mannyfit75]

Dear CA,

In my ongoing ‘fence sitting’ inquiry into Catholicism, I have been reading many pro-Catholic works, and a few anti-Catholic works. (but mostly pro, and most who know me here believe I am earnestly seeking the truth)

Ephesians 2:8-9 says:

By Grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves, not of works, it is the gift of God"

Protestants use this any many other passages from the New Testament to bank on their salvation. (although almost all Protestants acknowledge that God produces a change in people to make them do good works so a Christian who says they are saved but then sins en masse is probably not a Christian at all and has a false faith)

Now, as I understand the Catholic position, and please correct me if I’m wrong, it involves Merit.

So here’s my problem.

I read from an anti-Catholic site that: “Rome believes in salvation by works. Ergo, no Roman Catholic can be sure of his salvation.”

Now I don’t know if this is true or not.

The Catholic Church teaches that;

CCC

169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.” Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

In summary, we are save by the grace of God. With his grace, we are able to have faith in Christ, as well as to do good deeds. In the day of judgment, God judge us by our deeds. The Church does not teach we are saved by works alone. It teaches we are saved by grace of God, through faith and works.

James even said in James 2:14-26, *"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder.
Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. *

This “Merit” is it merely something that makes Purgatory go quicker, or is it actually needed to avoid Hell?

Not actually. There is a sin that is not deadly. Those people who die in sin that is not deadly would not go to hell. They would have to be purge. Those who die of sin that is deadly, they go to hell. There are also verses that support Purgatory. Purgatory is not lasting and will end on judgment day.

Scripture reference for Purgatory:

Heb. 12:29
1 Cor. 3:10-15
1 Cor. 3:15
Dan 12:10
Mal. 3:2-3
Zech. 13:8-9

To rephrase this, let’s say I choose to become a Catholic, go through RCIA, be a good Catholic for a year, and then decide never to step foot in a Catholic church again and just stay home for the rest of my life.

Do I go to heaven (via a long stint in purgatory) or Hell because of my Mortal Sins?

Thanks.

Rev

If you die in mortal sin, you would go to hell. If you die of venial sin, you go to purgatory. If you die in the state of grace, you go to heaven.

Catholics hope to go to heaven. We as Christians must fight the temptation of sin. We hope to presevere to the end, that we may see God and be rewarded for our deeds, faith.

 

[NotWorthy]

Rev, When we are Baptized, we become Children of God, right? It is through NO merit of ours that we attained this status.

But, as Paul says, as Children of God, we get to share in His inheritance. Again this is a free gift. We’ve done nothing to earn this, just as a child does nothing to earn their relationship.

Be that as it may, just as a child can dis-own his family and lose out on his inheritance, we can dis-own our Father, turn back to sin, and lose our inheritance of Heaven.

Someone put it this way: “Salvation, you can’t earn it, but you can sure blow it”. We blow it by sinning.

Our works, the fruits of our faith, are our gifts back to God for all the gifts He’s freely given us. The desire to do these good works are, in itself, a gift from God.

Let me ask you this. Where in the Gospels does Jesus say we are to be judged by anything OTHER than our works. Our works ARE important. They don’t get us to heaven, but they are necessary for us in order to remain Children of God.

BTW, in your analogy, if you left the church and sat around without sharing God’s gifts, you would be like the third servant who buried his treasure for fear of the Master. When the Master returned, the Servant was punished. You do the Math on that one.

 

[Kendy]

Dear CA,

In my ongoing ‘fence sitting’ inquiry into Catholicism, I have been reading many pro-Catholic works, and a few anti-Catholic works. (but mostly pro, and most who know me here believe I am earnestly seeking the truth)

Ephesians 2:8-9 says:

Protestants use this any many other passages from the New Testament to bank on their salvation. (although almost all Protestants acknowledge that God produces a change in people to make them do good works so a Christian who says they are saved but then sins en masse is probably not a Christian at all and has a false faith)

Now, as I understand the Catholic position, and please correct me if I’m wrong, it involves Merit.

So here’s my problem.

I read from an anti-Catholic site that: “Rome believes in salvation by works. Ergo, no Roman Catholic can be sure of his salvation”

Now I don’t know if this is true or not.

This “Merit” is it merely something that makes Purgatory go quicker, or is it actually needed to avoid Hell?

To rephrase this, let’s say I choose to become a Catholic, go through RCIA, be a good Catholic for a year, and then decide never to step foot in a Catholic church again and just stay home for the rest of my life.

Do I go to heaven (via a long stint in purgatory) or Hell because of my Mortal Sins?

Thanks.

Love,
Rev

I don’t know why you would do such a thing. I am assuming you would enter the church because you love God and have come to recognize that he wills for you to be a member of his body. You can fool God to get into heaven. Also, you must perserve in faith to go to heaven.

Kendy

 

[Gamera]

I read from an anti-Catholic site that: “Rome believes in salvation by works. Ergo, no Roman Catholic can be sure of his salvation”

Now I don’t know if this is true or not.

No, and yes. No to the first part, and yes (sort of) to the second part.

No, we do not believe in salvation by works. We believe in salvation by grace. Our sins offend and infinitely good God, so only an infinitely good sacrifice could make up for them — in other words, nobody could do enough good works to “earn” heaven. That’s why Jesus paid the price for us, becoming our perfect sacrifice paying the debt that we could not.

Yes, it’s true that Catholics are not “sure” of heaven in the “Once Saved, Always Saved,” sense that this writer means, but we ARE sure of God’s faithfulness. It is merely our own future actions of which we cannot be “sure.” I might commit a mortal sin in the future and lose my state of grace, but I also could repent and be forgiven — I just don’t know what the future holds. I do know, however, that God keeps His promises, and that He always stands ready to forgive and to restore us to His undeserved grace.

Merit really doesn’t play into this — nobody can merit saving grace. Merit only matters for those who are already in a state of grace. Merit cannot save the damned, nor “earn” anybody a spot in heaven. That is God’s free gift.

Hope that helps.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Salvation is a gift from God. Catholics DO NOT believe they are saved by their works. This is anti-Catholic rhetoric and I would dismiss any faith or group who spouts lies about another faith or group. Catholics believe we are saved by the grace of God and that our salvation is unmerited by us.

As far as works are concerned. Think of it as a “living faith” or “faith working in love”. Read the entire Epistle of James, but especially chapter two. Faith, without works, is dead (Jas 2:26). Do you think dead faith means something to God? Of course not. We are commanded throughout the New Testament to “do” and not just “believe”. So, Catholics believe that we must have an active faith not a dead faith with no works of charity. (By the way, I do not think that protestants necessarily think that “dead faith” will save them either. But many of them seem to misunderstand what “works” means to a Catholic).

As far as your last question is concerned. If you die in a state of mortal sin, you will go to hell. I am not going to say whether or not you would be in mortal sin under the circumstances you described. But the parameters of mortal sin is that 1) it has to be a grave matter 2) you have to give deliberate consent 3) you have to have full knowledge. Staying home from Church as a Catholic is a grave matter. Not all Catholics know exactly how serious of a matter it is, therefore, they may not have full knowledge and the sin would then be venial. Mortal sin severs your relationship with God. The Bible speaks clearly that some sins are mortal and some are not. (1 Jn 5:16). This is another serious error of many protestant Churches–they do not believe in mortal sin and believe “once saved always saved”. Catholics believe our final judgment occurs after death, not at some point in your life where you profess a belief in Christ. There are too many opportunities to commit a mortal sin after such a profession. Some protestants would call a person who committed such a sin a “backslider” and say they weren’t really saved when they professed their belief. To which I would say "then how would anyone really know if they are saved or not, when you can always “backslide?”

There is a member here (Awalt) who summarized, quite nicely, the Catholic view of salvation in his signature. I’ll paste it here for you.

I’m saved (Eph 2:5–8), being saved (1Cor 1:8), and hope I’ll be saved (1Cor 3:12–15). I’m working out my salvation in fear (Phil 2:12), with hopeful confidence in Christ (Rom 5:2).

Blessing to you Rev, Prayer_Warrior

 

[Della]

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Hope… is a movement of the appetite towards a future good, which though hard to attain is possible of attainment. Consideration of this state of soul is limited in this article to its aspect as a factor in the supernatural order. Looked at in this way it is defined to be a Divine virtue by which we confidently expect, with God’s help, to reach eternal felicity as well as to have at our disposal the means of securing it.

IOW, we are not depending on our works, but are employing the theological virtue of hope, that was infused in us at baptism, so that we can have the moral certainty of our salvation, as we hope in the salvation Jesus obtained for us through his redemptive death and resurrection.

 

[DeFide]

Rev, have you read this intro the Catholic faith yet?

Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth

It addresses many of your questions directly and clearly with references to the Catechism and Scripture.

Also, here’s an article on Reward & Merit.

 

[jmcrae]

Rev;

To put it as simply as possible - I can know as of this minute whether I am going to go to Heaven or to Hell, if I were to die right now.

However, I am unable to predict my future behaviour with absolute certainty.

At the moment, I have no intentions of committing a mortal sin and going to Hell. However, it is possible, as I have seen happen with many friends and relatives, that I could lose my faith and decide that I can do whatever I want, and to heck with God. If I were to do such a thing (pray for me now, for perseverence in the faith) then I would go to Hell.

However, if I were to come to my senses before I come to die, go to Confession and be reconciled with God and the Church, then I would be back on track to go to Heaven.

Heaven is a destination. This life is the journey. During the journey, we can get off the path and start heading in a different direction. But the Church tells us when we are going astray, and shows us how to get back on the right path.

Getting and staying on the right path is “work” that is mostly done by God, and a little bit done by us. Kind of like when a small child “helps” with the housework. It’s actually more work for the parent when the child is “helping,” but in order to train the child, the loving parent encourages and even requires the child’s help, so that when she reaches adulthood, she will have the skills that she needs to take care of her own house.

It’s the same with God. He doesn’t need our help, but He encourages us to do these things, and through the Church even requires certain things, so that we can be trained in holiness, in order to become Saints in Heaven - not for His sake, but for our own.

 

[VociMike]

…almost all Protestants acknowledge that God produces a change in people to make them do good works so a Christian who says they are saved but then sins en masse is probably not a Christian at all and has a false faith)

Ahh, but how many and what kind qualifies as “en masse”? Can anybody quantify this? And how can any person know that he/she won’t commit sins en masse later in life?

I would like to hear your view on this man, a former Christian preacher who is now an agressive atheist. Surely he thought he was saved when he was a Christian and a preacher.

 

[Sixtus]

I read from an anti-Catholic site that: "Rome believes in salvation by works

No doubt you will also have read how we have graven images, how we bow down to the statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary and how we pray to her that she will forgive us our sins and how we believe that salvation comes from Christ and His Mother Mary who is also worshipped as God.

It has one resonance of a truism and that is that all of the above are false in their entirety.

I had issue with a Protestant once who went to great lengths to argue the very point of your thread. I argued back that in all my days as a Catholic I had never heard of ‘salvation through merit’ but he insisted that was what the CC taught and advised me to go away and check.

I asked a priest and he was noticeably in shock that I could even conceive of such a thought. It was difficult trying to explain.

Catholic Teaching on the subject has been the same for 2000-years: that 'we are saved by the merit of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. Outside from which, there is no other route to salvation

 

[raezale]

What determines whether a Catholic goes to Heaven or Hell? What determines whether someone who is not a Catholic goes to Heaven or Hell?


I suppose if there are definite answers to those questions, then both Catholics and non-Catholics can be sure of their final destination based upon how they meet the criteria. I think it must be easier for the non-Catholics since they do not have to worry about mortal sin.

 

[Revelation13_16]

Firstly, thankyou to everyone for your clarification about your faith, I shall reply individually on parts which I would like clarification.

Here goes:

Scripture reference for Purgatory:

Heb. 12:29
1 Cor. 3:10-15
1 Cor. 3:15
Dan 12:10
Mal. 3:2-3
Zech. 13:8-9

Hi Mannyfit75,

Has the Magestrium said that these verses are unequivocal support for Purgatory?

Love,
Rev

 

[Mannyfit75]

Firstly, thankyou to everyone for your clarification about your faith, I shall reply individually on parts which I would like clarification.

Here goes:

Hi Mannyfit75,

Has the Magestrium said that these verses are unequivocal support for Purgatory?

Love,
Rev

The Church has not made these verse unequivocal to the support for purgatory. A Catholic is free to believe may be interpret as such. Catholics are told that they must intepret Scripture in the light of the teachings of the Church.

Here is what the Catholic Church states regarding Purgatory

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.

1475 In the communion of saints, “a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things.” In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

 

[Revelation13_16]

BTW, in your analogy, if you left the church and sat around without sharing God’s gifts, you would be like the third servant who buried his treasure for fear of the Master. When the Master returned, the Servant was punished. You do the Math on that one.

Hi NotWorthy,

I have for long had problems with this parable Unitas gave the following explanation of this parable in this thread here:

The nobleman gave the coin to thee servants so that they could make more of it, not just to hold on to it for him. This can be likened to the initial grace of faith God gifts us with. We’re supposed to “make more of it” that is, explore faith so we better understand the truth, and to explore it as much as we can.

When the new king had returned, the servants who had made much more with their single coin as ordered by the king, recieved much, much more than they were given, as a reward for their fidelity to his wishes. This can be likened to when Jesus shall come again to judge mankind. As you remember, those who give up all to follow Him, shall recieve tenfold in return. We shall be held accountable for that which we are given when He returns, like the servants are accountable to the king.

The king rebukes the third servant because he wasted that which he was given by keeping it hidden away, allowing it no chance to grow, not even in a bank with interest. This was explicitly against the king’s orders. We can liken this to those who recieve the initial gift of grace from God, but hide it away and pay it no mind. They remain complacent and willfully ignorant to what they have been given, allowing it no chance to grow.

As Lumen Gentium says, if we do not persue this gift of grace that God has given us in thought, deed, and word, (that is, hiding it away and ignoring it) not only will we not be saved but more severely judged on the second coming; Like the third servant who was rebuked by the king upon his return.

That is just how I understand the parable at least.

So I guess my question to you NotWorthy is, do you agree with Unitas’ interpretation of this parable, and is this view compatible with your view regarding the person who sits at home and does nothing with God’s gifts?

Love,
Rev

 

[porthos11]

Assurance of salvation is indeed present among Catholics, but thusly:

1. We believe that we are saved by grace.
2. However, we also believe that we can lose our state of grace through mortal sin (St. Paul warns Christians about falling away).
3. The state of grace is restored through Confession, or extra-ordinarily through an act of perfect contrition with the intention of going to Confession as soon as possible.
4. At any one moment, a Catholic knows whether he is in a state of grace or not. This means a Catholic knows that if he is in a state of grace now and he dies now, he goes to heaven (with a possible stop in purgatory).
5. What a Catholic doesn’t know is whether he will be in a state of grace at the moment of his death (perhaps some time in the future, he may wilfully harden his heart and reject God through mortal sin, and die unrepentant). This is something we cannot know for sure, since it is in the future, yet we remain hopeful and prayerful that we will persevere in grace.

Moreover, Catholics believe strongly that good works are of no value and merit whatsoever when he is not in a state of grace. We reject the notion of salvation by works.

 

[Revelation13_16]

I might commit a mortal sin in the future and lose my state of grace, but I also could repent and be forgiven — I just don’t know what the future holds.

Hi Gamera,

I don’t mean to cause disrespect with the following, but I find analogies and metaphor the best way to understand a concept:

So if Heaven were a gentleman’s club; Jesus paid the cover charge for us to get in, but we can still be kicked out if we don’t buy a drink every hour?

Love,
Rev

 

[NotWorthy]

Hi NotWorthy,

I have for long had problems with this parable Unitas gave the following explanation of this parable in this thread here:

So I guess my question to you NotWorthy is, do you agree with Unitas’ interpretation of this parable, and is this view compatible with your view regarding the person who sits at home and does nothing with God’s gifts?

Love,
Rev

Do you knowingly reject the gift? That’s got something to do with it.

For example, I love to teach the adults at our Church. Some have told me how much I inspire them. So, let’s say for arguments sake that I"m gifted with the gift of Teaching. Knowing this, if I say I’m tired of teaching, it’s all about me and God, and I walk away from teaching the adults because I’d rather sleep in late, I’m in a pickle.

If some of these adults drift away only because I didn’t lead them further into the truth… no wait, if I prevent the Holy Spirit from using me to guide these people into the Body… Well, what do you think? We Catholics, as we say the “Confietor” say at Mass, “I confess to almighty God… that I have sinned… in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do”.

Now, contrarily, if I’m unaware of my gift and I don’t use it, I don’t think there will be punishment for that.

Bottom line, the only way to keep the Gifts of God is to share them with your brothers and sisters. If you keep them to yourself, they are gone. “Faith without works is dead”.

 

[jmcrae]

What determines whether a Catholic goes to Heaven or Hell? What determines whether someone who is not a Catholic goes to Heaven or Hell?

God does, but He hasn’t left us in the dark as to His requirements. We have the Ten Commandments, and we have the Sermon on the Mount, the “woes” of St. Luke, along with all of Jesus’ other sayings, which we find in the Gospels.

For the sake of simplifying the process, many priests have undertaken to compile these into a series of questions, divided according to topic. Such a list of questions is referred to as an “Examination of Conscience,” or also called an “Examen.” There are a variety of types of Examen, depending upon one’s state in life (for children, for married persons, etc.) as well as general Examens that are good for everyone.

What a Catholic would do is he would go through all of the questions on the Examen in a prayerful manner, while asking the Holy Spirit to show him his sins.

As he went through the questions, to any that he responds “yes,” that he did that sin, he would then prayerfully ask himself, Did I know at the time that this was wrong?" “Did I do it on purpose?” and “Did I do it with the free consent of my will,?” If he answers “yes” to each of these, then he must confess these sins in the Confessional at his next reasonable opportunity. Otherwise, he can simply pray to God for forgiveness of his sins, and be resolved to avoid committing them in the future.

I suppose if there are definite answers to those questions, then both Catholics and non-Catholics can be sure of their final destination based upon how they meet the criteria.

Sure. I think that Protestants could certainly make good use of the various Examens that are out there - there are actually quite a few of them on the Internet.

I think it must be easier for the non-Catholics since they do not have to worry about mortal sin.

Not so much that they don’t have to worry about it, as that there isn’t all that much they can do about them, since they can’t go to Confession.

 

[Revelation13_16]

If you die in a state of mortal sin, you will go to hell. I am not going to say whether or not you would be in mortal sin under the circumstances you described. But the parameters of mortal sin is that 1) it has to be a grave matter 2) you have to give deliberate consent 3) you have to have full knowledge. Staying home from Church as a Catholic is a grave matter.

Hi Prayer_Warrior,

I have trouble reconciling this with what Paul says in Romans 10:9-11:

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”

Love,
Rev